Confrontation: Resurrection-Skirimsh and board game confirmed.

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**thekingofkings**

AegisGrimm wrote:
The Wamphyrs (I think those are the winged ghouls?) came in the army box for the Ram. No Centaurs, ever- my buddy and I were going to use Chaos Knights with skeleton heads for that baroque Ram feel.

It's a shame everyone's having such a problem bringing Confrontation back to life, Aarklash is a cool place for fantasy gaming.

I got the gargoyles in the ram army box *(the one with the almighty crane commanding) yeah I love the RPG as well.

**HaleysRedComet**

Regarding bringing Confrontation back - I am surprised the Hybrid game isn't brought up more. It was a miniature and tile based dungeon crawl before those really took off, and all the miniatures for it are compatible with any of the larger games. It doesn't require a large amount of miniatures, is a good platform for expansion, and with a good edit of the rules is a solid game. It's a good entry point to the miniature game, as getting a good variety of miniatures for it would also get you about enough to play Confrontation with as well.

I agree that the only curse Confrontation has is poor management. Unfortunately, it is what killed the game originally and has stifled attempts with it since then. Moving to PPP may have been a good choice for other brands, but the Confrontation brand was defined by high quality miniatures that painters drifted towards. People used them as RPG pieces and proxies for other games because you could buy single blisters for a reasonable price and get a detailed and character filled mini. Moving to PPP because of Heroclix's popularity missed the point that they were different markets.

**Smokestack**

I loved the prepainted minis. Though part of that was getting them at like $4 a box at miniature market. I still use them in rpgs, especially the wulfen models.

**Samko**

thekingofkings wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
The Wamphyrs (I think those are the winged ghouls?) came in the army box for the Ram. No Centaurs, ever- my buddy and I were going to use Chaos Knights with skeleton heads for that baroque Ram feel.

It's a shame everyone's having such a problem bringing Confrontation back to life, Aarklash is a cool place for fantasy gaming.

I got the gargoyles in the ram army box *(the one with the almighty crane commanding) yeah I love the RPG as well.

It was gargoyles in the army box, wamphyr were released in a unit box on their own.

The plastic minis are not that bad, especialy with the heavy discount they got after Rackham went down (but some have really minimal paint job, like the wolfen army box models).
I think what really killed the game was moving from a scirmish game to a mass battle game, it wasn't aimed at the existing player base.

**AegisGrimm**

Whoops, I was wrong, I guess. Ram and Lions were not armies I was able to grab before the game was cancelled, but my best bud has them.

The move to wargame was certainly a risk, but not as bad as the abysmal mismanagement, which seems to have happened again.

**ced1106**

Sans Detour is now sans business. :

From Petersen Games, in a KS update. : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petersengames/cthulhu-wars-onslaught-3/posts/2425177?fbclid=IwAR2D4uW3Epf5k4T09ehTnnH-9CpYSBkQPVTAIyF2e-MgmEwp0g_mQZbckhQ

"Sans Detour, unexpectedly went out of business last year (while owing us more than $150,000 in products we manufactured and shipped to them. The “net 30” model widely used in this industry, in which distributors pay publishers 30 days after receiving the goods can destroy small publishers like us. Our lawyer says we should not ever expect to be paid, even though we have a petition in a French court, and are on the list of creditors to be paid out of their assets). "

**fresus**

I haven't been following SD, but a quick look at their Facebook and website shows they're still active, and still taking orders…
Something's definitely not right (for a change).

**Overread**

Ced is that the right link? I skim read but it seems the only info in that is about shipping and packing and warehouse stuff - nothing about legal? Unless its buried alongside other comments in a shipping update or such?

**Baragash**

Overread wrote:
Ced is that the right link? I skim read but it seems the only info in that is about shipping and packing and warehouse stuff - nothing about legal? Unless its buried alongside other comments in a shipping update or such?

The quote is there, it's fairly near the top.

(I used the find function for "Sans Detour")

**Overread**

Ahh found it. It's about half way down in the "What about the VF and DE versions?" section.

**ced1106**

> I haven't been following SD, but a quick look at their Facebook and website shows they're still active, and still taking orders…

Isn't that also how Palladium works?

Yep, the quote's buried in the update.

**fresus**

After a quick googling, I came up with this understanding of how things work:
When a company stops paying its creditors, it has to start an official procedure, and has up to 45 days to officially publish the fact that it's going out of business. The current legal status of a company can be obtained from "infogreffe" (link here for SD), but I don't know if a company going out of business will be clearly marked on the main page, or if you have to buy the summary document for 3€ to see if the information is there.
Also, every change to a company's status should be published on "Bodacc" (link here for SD). The last entry was Dec. 23 of last year, which was just a change to their official main address.

So either I didn't understand clearly how to check for bankruptcy (quite possible), or SD is not officially out of business. In which case, what's going on with Petersen Games? Their statement clearly states they have legal counseling, and are currently taking action. A company filing for bankruptcy and being actively sued by its creditors couldn't (shouldn't?) be able to keep selling stuff on its website.
It's all very confusing to me. Does someone have more info, or better understanding of how bankruptcy works in France?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and SD is going to open a platform to sell used books on their website.
They're about to loose the license to sell the Cthulhu books (at the end of the month), so many people are wondering if their plan is actually to pass leftover stock as used books, to circumvent the loss of the license. Obviously no one has any proof, but the timing makes one wonder (and it's pretty weird for a tiny publisher to start a used products platform, when things are so easy to sell on ebay, amazon or the big classifieds websites…).

**Alpharius**

So bottom line is...Confrontation (this version via the Kickstarter campaign) isn't happening?

**BigDaddio**

I've seen it posted on some other sites that perhaps Peterson was mistaken about SD being out of business. It seems the guy that owns SD also owns (owned?) some other related businesses which are actually going out of business. But who knows for sure, since SD doesn't seem communicate well regardless....and has apparently created quite the tangled web for themselves.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Until SD declares itself bankrupt or is forced into it by another company, individual or the government it can keep trundling on no matter what it owes

Petersen sound as if they are looking in to forcing the issue by trying to recover what they are owed in court, which when SD fails to pay they could ask the court to make them bsnkrupt, and appoint an administrator to sieze assets to pay off all creditors

but that comes with at least 2 sets of problems,

time & money spent on lawyers in france which they basically know will not get them any money back SD's assets will be divided amongst all creditors with some getting paid out before others depending on the type of debt, so Petersen may basically know this is going to recover nothing if they do it, throwing more money away in the process

the debt will be on Petersens balance sheet as an 'asset' of some sort (although they'll be trying to write it off or write it down), but having it all disappear at once could cause them financial problems with their lenders

so it may be better to threaten from the sidelines rather than actively try and shut SD down (at some point somebody else like the French government may well do it for them if SD doesn't pay its taxes etc)

**Bossk_Hogg**

I'm sadly amused that the recasters have done a better job maintaining Confrontation's legacy, with Legend of Signum shipping. I wonder when they'll go back to producing old models.

I can't tell if this was just a scam from the start, or if the clowns at Sans Detour legit thought they could make that many molds on such a small budget. Also if they could churn out anything resembling a decent product without taking PVC shrinkage into account.

**Monkeysloth**

I don't think it was a scam but one where they were deluded and thought they could pull in something crazy like 5 million which would probably allow them to go and fix the digital scans and such to account for PVC shrinkage and for some reason decided to just not cancel when they brought in like 10% of what they wanted.

What they didn't realize is that there's not as large of a market for a 20 year old game that's been dead for 10 of those years that was never as popular as people make it out to be (and I have a lot of confrontation stuff).

**Overread**

Monkeysloth wrote:I don't think it was a scam but one where they were deluded and thought they could pull in something crazy like 5 million which would probably allow them to go and fix the digital scans and such to account for PVC shrinkage and for some reason decided to just not cancel when they brought in like 10% of what they wanted.

What they didn't realize is that there's not as large of a market for a 20 year old game that's been dead for 10 of those years that was never as popular as people make it out to be (and I have a lot of confrontation stuff).

I think they also hoped that they could get the money in with very little up front. And in fairness they got a lot considering how little they did put up (nothing on the plastic quality what so ever and product photos from older resin models). That there was a lot of drama around shows how strong the small core of confrontation players are in getting the dream back. It also didn't help that their whole campaign was for old models whilst they also announced that they were going to redesign everythign and make a totally new game based off Confrontation. So the KS was legacy only, nothing that would carry forward into the new game. Which is rather baffling that they'd go for plastics for a short term one sale product.

SD just makes a series of really odd choices and when one looks at how many subsidiary and linked companies have closed down attached to their company staff it kind of makes one wonder if they are just REALLY inept or scamming somewhere along the lines.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:I'm sadly amused that the recasters have done a better job maintaining Confrontation's legacy, with Legend of Signum shipping. I wonder when they'll go back to producing old models.

Honestly I hope the recasting company gives up with Confrontation and pushes ahead with their own game. It's a very rare situation to see a recaster go fully legit like this but it would be far better than them continuing to recast illegally. Far better for them to grow their own game. As noted above Confrontations market was decades ago and with no new main game to push it I can bet the market might well have been shrinking over the years. So forge ahead with their own game that they can market is far better.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Well to be fair to them they did contract production of the resins so the were (are) trying to produce at least that part of it

(at least part of which was to be done by the late Hysterical Games where i'd love to know if an SD not paying a bill on time was part of the reason they folded, or if it was unrelated)

**Monkeysloth**

If they had just stuck with doing resins only I think this whole thread would have a different tone.

**Bossk_Hogg**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well to be fair to them they did contract production of the resins so the were (are) trying to produce at least that part of it

(at least part of which was to be done by the late Hysterical Games where i'd love to know if an SD not paying a bill on time was part of the reason they folded, or if it was unrelated)

The resins that went out looked to be just stuff that CMON had already done (and clearanced from not being able to sell it). I got the titan dragon at their last sale for like $50.

Monkeysloth is right - Confrontation had it's time. Many of the sculpts haven't aged well (dwarves, some orc, Alahan, etc), and the diehards likely have nearly everything. The stock was clearanced a TON. I got a 10 gallon tub of stuff I got from Miniature Market at 90% off. Add in years of recasters filling in holes in people's collections, and it seems like their fanboy enthusiasm ran rampant. I see the same thing where people want to fire up the foundries for Ral Partha stuff... no guys, there isnt an untapped market for old ass Dennis Mize or Sandra Garrity sculpts.

**Hanskrampf**

Well, they clearly showed that there would be a market. They were at what 1.2 million?
But they showed nothing, so it dropped down to 400k.

**Overread**

Monkeysloth wrote:
If they had just stuck with doing resins only I think this whole thread would have a different tone.

If they had stuck with the resins it would have certainly made more sense to people.
It was just odd that a company would turn around and do plastics with not a single plastic sculpt to show for it and when those plastics were for a single print run for the KS only and then the company was also going to invest in more plastics for a new game with totally new sculpts. Even odder when they stated that the KS funds weren't going toward the new game so somehow they had all this money for a massive plastic investment for the new Confrontation, but not enough to get 1 plastic demo sculpted before their KS.

It just sent up so many warning lights for such a huge investment that they were then going to abandon.

**HaleysRedComet**

Just a quick note about resins. They said they have completed the first wave of resins (and have some pictures that show some completed models) and would be shipping the week after the last update on Jan 20.

So far I have not seen any evidence of anyone receiving a single model. I've checked every spot on the internet I know that talks about Confrontation and no one has received a resin yet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well to be fair to them they did contract production of the resins so the were (are) trying to produce at least that part of it

(at least part of which was to be done by the late Hysterical Games where i'd love to know if an SD not paying a bill on time was part of the reason they folded, or if it was unrelated)

The resins that went out looked to be just stuff that CMON had already done (and clearanced from not being able to sell it). I got the titan dragon at their last sale for like $50.

Monkeysloth is right - Confrontation had it's time. Many of the sculpts haven't aged well (dwarves, some orc, Alahan, etc), and the diehards likely have nearly everything. The stock was clearanced a TON. I got a 10 gallon tub of stuff I got from Miniature Market at 90% off. Add in years of recasters filling in holes in people's collections, and it seems like their fanboy enthusiasm ran rampant. I see the same thing where people want to fire up the foundries for Ral Partha stuff... no guys, there isnt an untapped market for old ass Dennis Mize or Sandra Garrity sculpts.

I would like to push back a little against the idea that Confrontation sculpts are outdated, or that there is no demand for them. Looking at what people like Angel Giraldez, Niko Deze, Ivan Radenkovic, Oliver Spaeth and others are doing with Confrontation in the last year shows how well the sculpts have held up, especially ones done in the last few years of the range. The sculptors included people like Aragorn Marks, Thomas David, and Benoît Cosse have all gone one to do some amazing things at other companies as well. There are definitely some sculpts that aren't the best, and I would say that most of them are towards Rackham's beginning, but to say that it's most of the range is incorrect.

**NAVARRO**

Sculpts are aged? Just in the sense that they were produced a decade ago correct? Since the concept, execution and quality is par with most things outhere! IMO.

Now someone picks up a stinker from rackham first waves against the best of a recent release from someone elses ranges and claims all rackham minis are stinkers

Seriously I loved the minis and would love to see more of it ( and I think I just found one new company making some of that). SO yeah Rackham is dead and I think the way forward is other companies assimilate the concepts and then expand, change etc. I rather see that .

**Llamahead**

Conquest seems to owe a lot to Rackham. Yep there were too many red flags and it was also far to all or nothing for me. I'd have happily considered a skirmish force or two but they only sold about 15 which was just to much and then they had no proof thye could produce the models no real prototypes and no production expertise.

**ced1106**

Re-reading this thread on Yog-Sothoth.com, where Chaosium and Petersen are active, I'd say that Chaosium and Petersen know who's who in this SD mess.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/index.html/news/sans-detour-stripped-of-call-of-cthulhu-licence/page/4/

**ced1106**

From the comments:

John: Where can I change shipping address?
Tom: You gave them your money. They dont need any shipping address.

Anyway, here's a TricTrac thread about SD. First post does a good job summarizing things, as of 12/18. Google translate powers activate!
https://www.trictrac.net/forum/sujet/lediteur-sans-detour-est-dans-une-situation-critique

EDIT: SD's still around. : http://www.sans-detour.com/actualites/detour-lance-service-dachat-vente/

**fresus**

ced1106 wrote:
EDIT: SD's still around. : http://www.sans-detour.com/actualites/detour-lance-service-dachat-vente/

As I said above, some people are wondering if this new platform is just a way to circumvent the loss of the Cthulu license. By the end of the month, they won't be able to sell the books anymore, but will probably have some leftover stock. Passing them as "used" and selling them through their own platform could be a way to liquidate the stock.
No one knows for sure, but the timing is concerning, and it's very weird for a small publisher to open an online platform on their website when basically everyone uses the big classified websites or apps on their phones.
I don't like accusing people without any proof, but SD has done enough shady stuff that I think it's worth raising this concern.
It would also explain why the only update they've given in a while is about that stuff that no one was expecting/hoping for.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Well we have an update on the KS

Updated information -- Les Informations de reprise

Posted by Joss (Collaborator)

Hello everyone,

For the past six months, the agenda and activity of Éditions Sans-détour have greatly changed. All of our energy has gone into the transition we’re currently undergoing and we’ve had to make important changes in order to continue operating, all while continuing to work on the Confrontation Classic project. We have to admit that we haven’t given enough of our time to this massive project, whether for project leadership or, more importantly, for communication.

We’d like to sincerely apologize to the community.

We’re taking back the management of this project firmly in hand, as it should be, with the goal of keeping you informed on a regular basis.

1- Let’s start with the resin Collector’s Choice models.

As we’ve already announced, De Tinnen Roos is Sans-Détour’s partner for the production of the Collector’s Choice resin models for Confrontation Classic. Since Hysterical Games closed down, we chose this production company for their good reputation. Thanks to them, we’re resuming the production of the Collector’s Choice.

We have the pleasure of revealing the first control castings made by DTR for the resin models of the Kickstarter which have also allowed us to check the quality and rework some parts as needed.

These first castings were made using a blue resin, but let’s reassure indigophobes right away, regular production will be made in a more traditional magnificent gray.

[spoiler][spoiler] (beware, bare breasts)

The schedule is as follows for these resins:

• May 13th to the 20th: production of the resin models, as agreed with De Tinnen Roos.

• Around May 25th: reception of the models at our warehouse.

• Starting on May 27th: beginning of the packaging for shipping.

• Starting on May 31st: Beginning of the shipping of resin models to the backers who have decided to receive them separately, or who have only these resin models in their pledge.

Some of the Skull Warriors have gotten some touch-ups and will be delivered to us with a few days of delays.

As for the Mid-Nor Hydra and the Cynwall Wyrm models, the size of some of the parts means slightly longer detail work so that these are of the best possible quality (example: the wings of the Wyrm)

Our team will visit the De Tinnen Roos workshop in the last week of May in order to check the process for these parts and validate the quality of the casts. Shipping for these models will thus be pushed back 2 or 3 weeks. We’ll let you know the expected delays once we’ve met with the De Tinnen Roos team.

Their team has also passed along a technical detail we’d like to share with you: At the beginning of the year, they’ve chosen to use a less fragile resin than the one they used to use. This upgrade has required a few technical changes and a bit of time to adjust to working with it. But in the end, the DTR team is up to date and able to produce quality models with a less brittle material!

2- Confrontation Classic

We’ll be strengthening the project team and dedicating additional human resources to management and communication. We’re re-examining multiple fabrication and delivery solutions. We’ll give you more complete information and a tentative schedule as soon as they are greenlit on our side.

3- Others Projects

As you know, the return of Confrontation is accompanied by the development of Confrontation Resurrection and other projects, such as the roleplaying game. We’ll also have new news we’ll be communicating with you on a regular basis about those.

Once again, we’re deeply sorry for the radio silence and we’ll do what’s needed to broadcast information in this space on a regular basis.

Sans-Détour