Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ced1106 wrote:

Joss, who teased (dunno if he actually said) during the Discourse chats he had miniatures experience is only the "game designer and author of the game Alkemy".

And let's not forget that the game Alkemy that he designed made their first company, Kraken Editions, bankrupt. If it wasn't for some very passionate fans who bought back the license, it would have been forgotten in the depths of miniature history.

Which is why I'm not really that reassured he's in this team. It's not a guarantee he knows what he's doing.

There are definitely a fair few Rackham models that haven't aged well, but there's also a lot that are still gorgeous, even by today's standards. Moreover, they really have a unique and iconic aesthetic to them. The industry has caught up, but by and large, they still haven't superseded them.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

 Mysterio wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

You have to lose way more than that to "un-fund". I don't think the base of french fanboys will leave their Early Birds in great numbers enough until the end of the campaign for that to happen. However, it's possible SD won't manage to reach their "real" minimum to actually make it possible and cancel the Kickstarter before the end while giving a gak reason like "since we got the attention of so many haters, we believe it's more reasonnable to leave for a while and return when the time is right" or whatever.

Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

That's....impressive I think.

 Sarouan wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

You have to lose way more than that to "un-fund". I don't think the base of french fanboys will leave their Early Birds in great numbers enough until the end of the campaign for that to happen. However, it's possible SD won't manage to reach their "real" minimum to actually make it possible and cancel the Kickstarter before the end while giving a gak reason like "since we got the attention of so many haters, we believe it's more reasonnable to leave for a while and return when the time is right" or whatever.

Well, they're losing an average of about €10K a day now, so yeah, there isn't enough time left to "UN-FUND" if that stay stable.

And you're right, the hardcore French Fanbase might stick in out until the bitter end - but you're also right in that SD might cancel it if it drops below the 'magic real number to fund' level.

Or, they might pull a version of the "Palladium Maneuver" and let it fund, try half-heartedly to make it, maybe deliver...something less then the full pledge, then claim 'we tried, but the money is gone'.

Who know?

But this one looks less and less likely to deliver what is promised as each day goes by.

They should stop listening to Kevin S and Tony Reidy on how to run successful gaming businesses.

Once the last few days draw nearer I think a larger exodus will occur as people see that extra stretch goals aren’t happening and realize that maybe the herd figured something out they didn’t know.

 Mysterio wrote:

Well, they're losing an average of about €10K a day now, so yeah, there isn't enough time left to "UN-FUND" if that stay stable.

It's actually dropping by €12.5k/day (yesterday and today) and for the next 16 days that's around €200k less, still €365k left. But these things often start as an avalanche, small, but at the end the whole mountain comes down on your head...

It would be best to stop now and start anew later... this way they only burn bridges. Regarding the rumors: Actually they created most of them due to their own inability to answer questions before and during the KS.

I offered to dig up screenshots of the many, many times questions were asked directly on Sans Detour's Facebook posts and were left unanswered. I didn't get a response to that.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Regarding miniature quality - I am still painting old Rackham stuff. Pretty much anything they did after 2006 or 2007 absolutely holds up to today's stuff. The edges are sharp, the detail is there, and (personally) I like the art design.

https://i.imgur.com/kaOIGhe.jpg

That orc right there holds up, quality wise, to anything I am painting today from Corvus Belli, Kingdom Death, or Steamforged.

To my eyes, that guy just looks like an average miniature from Reaper (but without much of their fiddly crap) but there's nothing that would put it in the tier of Mierce, Kingdom Death, etc. If you told me it came from a CMON boardgame I honestly wouldn't bat an eye (ok, I would because I have that figure, but you get the idea). There's nothing remarkable in terms of sculpt detail or casting.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Regarding miniature quality - I am still painting old Rackham stuff. Pretty much anything they did after 2006 or 2007 absolutely holds up to today's stuff. The edges are sharp, the detail is there, and (personally) I like the art design.

https://i.imgur.com/kaOIGhe.jpg

That orc right there holds up, quality wise, to anything I am painting today from Corvus Belli, Kingdom Death, or Steamforged.

To my eyes, that guy just looks like an average miniature from Reaper (but without much of their fiddly crap) but there's nothing that would put it in the tier of Mierce, Kingdom Death, etc. If you told me it came from a CMON boardgame I honestly wouldn't bat an eye (ok, I would because I have that figure, but you get the idea). There's nothing remarkable in terms of sculpt detail or casting.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen a Reaper mini that is able to pull off something as clean as the stitching or the rats on the back of the mini as seen here.

https://i.imgur.com/Jg0PogB.jpg

There's also the undercuts on the leather armor bits. The chest and back piece get deeper undercuts than I've seen on pretty much any other minis line. I think this puts it way ahead of anything I've seen in Zombicide.

https://mustcontainminis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Zombicide_Black_Plague_Unboxing033.jpg

Just looking at this, which is a recent example, I can see for myself that the beard and hair is not as crisp as the Rackham mini.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

I hate it when companies blame the customers for their own failings. This is far from a well run KS.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I offered to dig up screenshots of the many, many times questions were asked directly on Sans Detour's Facebook posts and were left unanswered. I didn't get a response to that.

Not really surprising since even for their RPG crowdfunding projects, this is a common criticism from their customers/backers when something bad happens: bad/lack of communication.

They're clearly thinking highly of themselves. Even if they pull if off, I'm sure they will make it in a way that it shows it's not their fault but the "haters talking nonsense and spreading lies" about them. Guess what they did wrong in some of their Ulule projects were also fabricated lies that never happened, huh.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

Pure obstinate in the face of many facts and opinions to the contrary. They do not realize not only will they sink this KS but their reputation for future KS. Few will want to pledge for any future projects either.

Instead of taking the tact of saying, "okay, we screwed up, lets start again after we address the concerns" -- nope, it is everyone else's fault but theirs.

Limonata wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

Pure obstinate in the face of many facts and opinions to the contrary. They do not realize not only will they sink this KS but their reputation for future KS. Few will want to pledge for any future projects either.

Instead of taking the tact of saying, "okay, we screwed up, lets start again after we address the concerns" -- nope, it is everyone else's fault but theirs.

The difference is vast between them and say someone like Shieldwolf who has cancelled several kickstarters but the completed ones all deliver so people will still support them pretty easily. Because they were open and honest when they cancelled them.

fwiw, Right now, both US and France have about 670 backers each. That's 1340 of the 2500 backers, or about 1/4 each.

Currently at 187% of their goal, with a KickTraq trend of 415% (?).

I find their introduction of resin a *little* ironic. Backers kept saying how individual factions would drop funding. Then SD introduces expensive resins and backers decide to switch from a $400 pledge to a $160 resin. (Well, that's my guess at what happened, besides the usual exodus.)

More importantly, had SD done resins in the first place, they wouldn't be in this mess. A resin campaign would have gained them KS experience at a less expensive price than plastic miniatures, as well as provide a year-long advertising campaign for their Confrontation: Resurrection line. And, as I understand it, they were going to discontinue the plastic miniatures anyway. And, of course, they could more easily show off production samples in their campaign.

From what one could gather on the internet they thought they would get 2-3 millions with this KS. I do understand from this pov why they were aiming for plastics, but the rest is really amateurish. It is like they went for the least hassle no matter what, i.e. no sorting because of the big box, cheaper than resin and metal to ship, etc.

The problem is, they completely forgot why other KS were that succesful. Also, killing a line while it is still kickstarted is also not a good idea. And Confro Classic will be dead on arrival. They again and again stated that they only want to celebrate the game but then leave it behind and move on to Ressurection. I assume they even saw Classic only as a good way to gather money for Ressurection.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I assume they even saw Classic only as a good way to gather money for Ressurection.

Thing is that doesn't make sense since, if they wanted this KS to fund Resurrection, why split the resources between two whole product lines in two totally different materials. Why not just have a Resurrection KS purely to fund the one long term product line that they want to turn into a proper game and business.

The only way I can see this KS helping the latter game is if they were going to use this KS to show to private investors, yet even then it still leaves one baffled (since, again, a private investor would be far more interested in a KS funding the actual game to be made rather than a huge side project - esp if they are asking for similar levels of support).


Honestly I think their plans are so obscure and strange and this KS so poorly run that it just leaves a taste in the mouth that they are going to take the money and run. Or take the bulk of it and run leaving behind a very sub-standard and cheapy made product so that the KS is "completed".
Then again I've spent the last few days watching youtube clips of "Hells Kitchen" so it kind of grounds one in remembering that some people really are totally inept in what they do and incapable of criticism/feedback from others. So it could just be incompetence.

Well, to us it does not make sense, but it seems like it made sense to them. Considering how they always repeat how they want to celebrate Classic I assume that there is a lot of blue-eyed thinking about how a Kickstarter really works.
Right now I expect a Robotech-outcome....

What's the latest on the differences? I only went by the 2017 solicitation for investors. From the solicitation, I was guessing that the Classic KS was for making models that would be used in Resurrection? Their current KS at least saves them the trouble of actually having to show a game they've been developing...

www.sans-detour.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Sans-Detour_ouvre_son_capital.pdf

• Resurrection will be the Skirmisher, but there will also be Boardgames in the world of Confrontation. The boardgame miniatures will be compatible to the skirmisher.
• There will be new exclusive models and revisioned old models (the classic line). For the boardgames, it will most likely be plastic, for the classic line Resin. Nothing set yet about the material for Resurrection, the community will be confronted with it.
• Base-size and -shape won't matter for the game. The first designs of the pre-structured bases will be shown soon.
• The rules will be more contemporary and the stats revised. Therefore, it will be either new versions of old models (see the classic line above) or new profiles.

The more time passes, the less I understand about this project. More miniatures is better than less miniatures and keeping Rackham old sculpts "in business" even if their new plastics will not be better than prepaints, is still preferred (by me) outcome of this trainwreck, but... even their resin add-ons now do not look as a safe bet. Unfortunately... I'd like to get one or two. :(

If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

elarquin wrote:
If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

I picked up the Dirz Wyrm when they were doing their clearance sale. It's pretty good, but "actually deliver" is something that was a real issue with people's orders. At least I have my little dragon though.

HaleysRedComet wrote:

elarquin wrote:
If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

I picked up the Dirz Wyrm when they were doing their clearance sale. It's pretty good, but "actually deliver" is something that was a real issue with people's orders. At least I have my little dragon though.

That sale of theirs was insane and then they all took a 3 week holiday before shipping anything .

ced1106 wrote:
I was guessing that the Classic KS was for making models that would be used in Resurrection? Their current KS at least saves them the trouble of actually having to show a game they've been developing...

This is the problem im seeing with that thinking is they have indicated several times that the big box wont be on sale in the way it is on KS as its not viable from a customers point of view, so to get around that the minis would need to be sold separately either as individuals or as factions and this is where im seeing lots of problems...

1)They said they wont sell factions in KS as the molds would need re-arranging into factions rather than their initial set up of "mix and match" that would make good use of the mold space and in their opinion the result of doing the molds in factions is that some will not be that popular and they would be left with a lot of stock left over from the "min manufacturing number" needed to make the order.
2)To make factions available separately they need to raise 1.25M Euros, which i personally think is a joke(and possibly the real funding goal needed for the basic box) considering all 178 basic box minis would have been molded at 300K Euros, it doesnt take 950K Euros to re-arrange the minis in the molds, yes i understand some of that 950K would be took for logistics etc.
3)If the KS ends funded @ what it is now and Sans Detour decides to sell faction boxes, in my opinion they will struggle as there will be a gak ton of factions and separate minis on the 2nd hand market from re-sellers or people off-loading the stuff they dont want, there could be anywhere of 2000+(#backers) copies of each mini/faction and most likely selling for less than what Sans Detour can, therefore sinking their chances of a retail market, they would be better off selling factions in the KS, that way they can have some control over the 2nd hand market ie it wont be flooded with unwanted factions backers didnt want.

Now this brings me along to the funding level and the amount of minis that need working on and producing, from what i hear from a few sources is the pvc minis will cost between 2-5K Euros each to make a mold for, with the basic box of 178 minis at 2K a mold thats works out at 356K Euros 56K above the funding target and im pretty sure that price doesnt include the digital scanning and tweeking of the sculpts, then you have to pay for production of the minis too, like it has been said that San Detour was expecting it hit the heights of a multi-million Euro campaign and more than likely had a low goal to hit funding extremely quickly to use that as a good piece of PR helping along with the reputation of Confrontation it to hit that target but its not worked out like that.

The problem is that they have told us so many things what they want to do, that noone really knows what exactly they are going to do. And what I fear is that they never realized that the flooding of the market with not wanted Classic minis might kill Ressurection instantly...

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The problem is that they have told us so many things what they want to do, that noone really knows what exactly they are going to do. And what I fear is that they never realized that the flooding of the market with not wanted Classic minis might kill Ressurection instantly...

Assuming that they can even afford to do both.

If the KS makes it to market and has poor quality models then that will seriously hinder Resurrection not just because people won't trust them to make good models; but because they'll have seriously annoyed their most loyal core market. The KS backers are the kind of people who are far more likely to push Resurrection in their local clubs; so if they get put out by bad models and a bad KS then they will most certainly not be back nor help push the new game when it comes out.


So they could find themselves in the future with a solid product line and a market which hates them. That will take years to overcome and put their launch back by years in the power it should have.




Of course the KS could work really well; the plastic could be high grade and really great and the backers get their models on time and with few errors/problems. I'm sure every backer and even those of us not backing want to see Confruntation return - but - right now its not looking hopeful (esp as they've still not even shown a single pre-production model? Nor even scanned 3D model)

 Overread wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:


Of course the KS could work really well; the plastic could be high grade and really great and the backers get their models on time and with few errors/problems. I'm sure every backer and even those of us not backing want to see Confruntation return - but - right now its not looking hopeful (esp as they've still not even shown a single pre-production model? Nor even scanned 3D model)

I do not believe they EVER intended to show anything during the campaign. It is 18 months long to receive the pledge. They are starting at zero and wanted all the money up front before they even started any work and once they had your money, the feedback does not matter as you can see in some of their RPG projects. The question of showing samples was asked many many times but the answer was either a deflection or was not ever answered. They have nothing nor planned to give you anything to see upfront. Give us money, see you in 18 months. You will love it because after all, you have no choice. Everything was "give me all your money, and trust us" This was a pure and simple money grab to fund the work on Resurrection. Since the Resurrection KS was supposed to start before they even delivered Classic they had no intention do well by Classic. Since they will be killing Confrontation and they are not even supporting the square bases in the new game (their own words) it was take the money and run while I show you this new shiny thing.

They wanted to do zero up front work. Invest zero money. They kept saying "this is what other KS do, do not be fooled"

If they do not cancel and do try to deliver, it will be a disaster. IMHO, they cannot even bring Resurrection to KS. Their reputation is shot. The best they can do is license it to someone who cares and will do the work that should have been done and just stay out of it and collect the license fees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One other item, anyone notice that the Confrontation project has been #1 on http://www.kicktraq.com/hotlist/games/tabletop%20games/ despite the fact that they have kept loosing backers and money?

Seems fishy to me because successful projects drop at some point and then pick up steam in the last two weeks. Even the Monolith Batman project had dropped out of the Top 10 for several days and then went back up to #1.

Wondering if on top of all their other BS they are gaming kicktraq.com to goose the stats.