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Given the wealth of options available to me (I play all 3 Eldar factions) I'm going to say the Dark Eldar stuff is usually better than the Eldar stuff, as nice as the WS can be.

Sure, you get one shot with the Serpent Shield, but other than that I'm not seeing why so many people are so crazy on the Serp's ability as a standalone tank. After you blow your shield, you've got 4 S6 shots.. a chimera has more firepower.

Dark Eldar vehicles are basically half the cost, for either a unit that's great at being a primary transport (raider) or a unit that's an excellent gunboat with Cherry On Top transport capabilities (Venom).

I'll take DE transports every day of the week, and now that I've got the choice with the ynnari detachment...I'm definitely going to. Open Topped is too good to be beat.

Macrocacrid Explorator gets my vote.

LSS I think is probably the best dedicated transport in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Given the wealth of options available to me (I play all 3 Eldar factions) I'm going to say the Dark Eldar stuff is usually better than the Eldar stuff, as nice as the WS can be.

Sure, you get one shot with the Serpent Shield, but other than that I'm not seeing why so many people are so crazy on the Serp's ability as a standalone tank. After you blow your shield, you've got 4 S6 shots.. a chimera has more firepower.

Dark Eldar vehicles are basically half the cost, for either a unit that's great at being a primary transport (raider) or a unit that's an excellent gunboat with Cherry On Top transport capabilities (Venom).

I'll take DE transports every day of the week, and now that I've got the choice with the ynnari detachment...I'm definitely going to. Open Topped is too good to be beat.

Wave serpants Always take a Suriken Cannon upgrade for 10 points. They come stock with a TL Suriken Cannon turret. They get 2d6 str 5 ignore cover shots with their sheild (typically the sheild aspect is better than the gun though) Being unable to be penned 5/6 times and having armor 12 - makes it one of the tougher vehicals in the game. This is where it really shines - on defense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LSS I think is probably the best dedicated transport in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Given the wealth of options available to me (I play all 3 Eldar factions) I'm going to say the Dark Eldar stuff is usually better than the Eldar stuff, as nice as the WS can be.

Sure, you get one shot with the Serpent Shield, but other than that I'm not seeing why so many people are so crazy on the Serp's ability as a standalone tank. After you blow your shield, you've got 4 S6 shots.. a chimera has more firepower.

Dark Eldar vehicles are basically half the cost, for either a unit that's great at being a primary transport (raider) or a unit that's an excellent gunboat with Cherry On Top transport capabilities (Venom).

I'll take DE transports every day of the week, and now that I've got the choice with the ynnari detachment...I'm definitely going to. Open Topped is too good to be beat.

Wave serpants Always take a Suriken Cannon upgrade for 10 points. They come stock with a TL Suriken Cannon turret. They get 2d6 str 5 ignore cover shots with their sheild (typically the sheild aspect is better than the gun though) Being unable to be penned 5/6 times and having armor 12 - makes it one of the tougher vehicals in the game. This is where it really shines - on defense.

Yes a serpent will get you where you want to go, but in order to do that you are paying a lot of points and it doesn't put out that much shooting really. It has no firing points so you have to get out to shoot, the only exit is at the back so you can either deploy behind the tank or turn around and lose pretty much all your defence (partially offset by eldar being able to run and shoot but still relevant). When you do get out you just have to sit there and get shot before you can assault, and remember it is only eldar in there they aren't that hard to kill when out in the open. Don't get me wrong it is still a good transport, but I have always been envious of armies that have the option of a cheap transport.

AND mobile Firepower. TL Scatter + Shuricannon is more shots than a Chimera, and you can fire all those shots while you're moving. So you don't have to sit still, you can, you know, transport things while you're providing firepower. And instead of hitting with an average of twice, when moving 6" with a Chimera, you hit an average of 5.5 times when moving 12" with the WS. 2.5 times the offensive capability, for twice the price.

That's where it shines. That's why it's great.

Then, you can take a cover save, if you want. Sure, you lose firepower but, you know, you're still alive and able to transport, and potentially keep shooting later on. And you're not going to get stunned, or immobilized, or anything else on a 2+. And the Shield can be used turn 5 or so as clean-up shots, when you don't need to worry about the extra survival ability. Hell, once you're down to 1 hp, you might as well fire off the shield.

But wait! If you advance that Chimera, you're going to get shot in the side! How else is IG going to realistically get to objectives outside their deployment zone... advance a blob? Ha! So you're not taking shots on your front armour of 12, you're taking side shots vs AV 10. So your slow as a slug transport gets pegged just as easily as a trukk, or raider, in practice, because "good" armies are mobile, and they can do that. The WS is well more than twice as tough as a Chimera, for twice the price.

That's where it's brilliant. That's why it's amazing.

And you're amazingly mobile. Terrain? Not a problem. I don't need to set foot in it, to get a cover save, I carry it with me! No slowing down. No being immobilized.

But wait! I'm a fast Skimmer! So I can move faster, without concern for intervening terrain! If I Jinked, I might as well, right?

That's why it's the shining gold standard. That's why it's the best. Not just the best, but also the best value. I'd never take 2x Chimerae for the price of one Wave Serpent. I'd never take 4x Rhinos, for a single Wave Serpent. I wouldn't use 4x Pods, for the price of a Wave Serpent. It's just, plain, better value than all other transports.

 roflmajog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LSS I think is probably the best dedicated transport in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Given the wealth of options available to me (I play all 3 Eldar factions) I'm going to say the Dark Eldar stuff is usually better than the Eldar stuff, as nice as the WS can be.

Sure, you get one shot with the Serpent Shield, but other than that I'm not seeing why so many people are so crazy on the Serp's ability as a standalone tank. After you blow your shield, you've got 4 S6 shots.. a chimera has more firepower.

Dark Eldar vehicles are basically half the cost, for either a unit that's great at being a primary transport (raider) or a unit that's an excellent gunboat with Cherry On Top transport capabilities (Venom).

I'll take DE transports every day of the week, and now that I've got the choice with the ynnari detachment...I'm definitely going to. Open Topped is too good to be beat.

Wave serpants Always take a Suriken Cannon upgrade for 10 points. They come stock with a TL Suriken Cannon turret. They get 2d6 str 5 ignore cover shots with their sheild (typically the sheild aspect is better than the gun though) Being unable to be penned 5/6 times and having armor 12 - makes it one of the tougher vehicals in the game. This is where it really shines - on defense.

Yes a serpent will get you where you want to go, but in order to do that you are paying a lot of points and it doesn't put out that much shooting really. It has no firing points so you have to get out to shoot, the only exit is at the back so you can either deploy behind the tank or turn around and lose pretty much all your defence (partially offset by eldar being able to run and shoot but still relevant). When you do get out you just have to sit there and get shot before you can assault, and remember it is only eldar in there they aren't that hard to kill when out in the open. Don't get me wrong it is still a good transport, but I have always been envious of armies that have the option of a cheap transport.

True and not being an assault vehicle really hurts it here. Banshees would be pretty boss if WS was an assault vehicle and for it's price I think it should be. This leave Wraithgard being the only viable thing to actually transport (and maybe fire draggons but I usually put those in a Falcon) and wraithgrad are expensive too. Dark Eldar Radiers are much more effective in that they are cheap and are also assault vehicals and can still brink a draklance - sadly - darkeldar don't really have anything good to put in them. Wraithgards in raiders is freaken awesome though. HAHA.

Pods aren't transports. They are models that let marines teleport. What's the difference? Being stuck on foot while the pod lives is a huge drawback. Huge, and constantly overlooked.

 greatbigtree wrote:
AND mobile Firepower. TL Scatter + Shuricannon is more shots than a Chimera, and you can fire all those shots while you're moving. So you don't have to sit still, you can, you know, transport things while you're providing firepower. And instead of hitting with an average of twice, when moving 6" with a Chimera, you hit an average of 5.5 times when moving 12" with the WS. 2.5 times the offensive capability, for twice the price.

That's where it shines. That's why it's great.

Then, you can take a cover save, if you want. Sure, you lose firepower but, you know, you're still alive and able to transport, and potentially keep shooting later on. And you're not going to get stunned, or immobilized, or anything else on a 2+. And the Shield can be used turn 5 or so as clean-up shots, when you don't need to worry about the extra survival ability. Hell, once you're down to 1 hp, you might as well fire off the shield.

But wait! If you advance that Chimera, you're going to get shot in the side! How else is IG going to realistically get to objectives outside their deployment zone... advance a blob? Ha! So you're not taking shots on your front armour of 12, you're taking side shots vs AV 10. So your slow as a slug transport gets pegged just as easily as a trukk, or raider, in practice, because "good" armies are mobile, and they can do that. The WS is well more than twice as tough as a Chimera, for twice the price.

That's where it's brilliant. That's why it's amazing.

And you're amazingly mobile. Terrain? Not a problem. I don't need to set foot in it, to get a cover save, I carry it with me! No slowing down. No being immobilized.

But wait! I'm a fast Skimmer! So I can move faster, without concern for intervening terrain! If I Jinked, I might as well, right?

That's why it's the shining gold standard. That's why it's the best. Not just the best, but also the best value. I'd never take 2x Chimerae for the price of one Wave Serpent. I'd never take 4x Rhinos, for a single Wave Serpent. I wouldn't use 4x Pods, for the price of a Wave Serpent. It's just, plain, better value than all other transports.

Yes a serpent is a good tank that will get a unit where it needs to be but I wouldn't say it is always better than 4 rhinos or pods. Someimes you just want the option of giving your standard units a cheap transport to keep them a bit safer, you accept it might die but you realize it isn't worth doubling the cost of a squad to give it a transport.

Yeah I think it's best not to think of a drop pod as a transport. They are great for their points but they aren't a transport in the fact that they don't offer any defense to the unit. The way I think of them is as alpha strikers - no one would take drop pods ever if they didn't come in turn 1 automatically.

Martel732 wrote:
Pods aren't transports. They are models that let marines teleport. What's the difference? Being stuck on foot while the pod lives is a huge drawback. Huge, and constantly overlooked.

You are also in the middle of the enemy army, with a nice bit of terrain near you that you get to place. How far do you need to move anyway?

Come play me sometime and find out.

I'm not the coward angels for no reason.

The drop pod is the king of all transports... that's it.

Eldar Wave Serpents cost three to four times the price and hardly deliver anything more, as they are one-shot transports for one-shot units.

In their only case of competitive use, as delivery mechanism for flaming Wraithguard, they are a whole lot worse than drop pods.

Hell, drop pods in assault should always be an auto take.

Capturing 2 to 3 points on the map for 105 points, plus leaving 9HP of AV12 to go through, plus having a tiny annoying bolter on top...

And LOS walls from Rhinos that cost next to nothing and can move 18" a turn ? Of course !

I think every army would love to have drop pods like the space marines'

 greatbigtree wrote:
AND mobile Firepower. TL Scatter + Shuricannon is more shots than a Chimera, and you can fire all those shots while you're moving. So you don't have to sit still, you can, you know, transport things while you're providing firepower. And instead of hitting with an average of twice, when moving 6" with a Chimera, you hit an average of 5.5 times when moving 12" with the WS. 2.5 times the offensive capability, for twice the price.

That's where it shines. That's why it's great.

Then, you can take a cover save, if you want. Sure, you lose firepower but, you know, you're still alive and able to transport, and potentially keep shooting later on. And you're not going to get stunned, or immobilized, or anything else on a 2+. And the Shield can be used turn 5 or so as clean-up shots, when you don't need to worry about the extra survival ability. Hell, once you're down to 1 hp, you might as well fire off the shield.

But wait! If you advance that Chimera, you're going to get shot in the side! How else is IG going to realistically get to objectives outside their deployment zone... advance a blob? Ha! So you're not taking shots on your front armour of 12, you're taking side shots vs AV 10. So your slow as a slug transport gets pegged just as easily as a trukk, or raider, in practice, because "good" armies are mobile, and they can do that. The WS is well more than twice as tough as a Chimera, for twice the price.

That's where it's brilliant. That's why it's amazing.

And you're amazingly mobile. Terrain? Not a problem. I don't need to set foot in it, to get a cover save, I carry it with me! No slowing down. No being immobilized.

But wait! I'm a fast Skimmer! So I can move faster, without concern for intervening terrain! If I Jinked, I might as well, right?

That's why it's the shining gold standard. That's why it's the best. Not just the best, but also the best value. I'd never take 2x Chimerae for the price of one Wave Serpent. I'd never take 4x Rhinos, for a single Wave Serpent. I wouldn't use 4x Pods, for the price of a Wave Serpent. It's just, plain, better value than all other transports.

But again, a wave serpent is a single tank. How many objectives can a single tank hold? Now how many can 2 chimeras or 4 rhinos hold? You're more durable and more shooty, but you can only be in one place at a time, and even once a rhino or chimera is wrecked it still prevents the unit from being shot at by becoming a giant LoS blocking wall.

2 Chimerae, or 4 Rhinos, hold exactly 0 objectives at the end of the game. Not because they can't, but because they're gone. I've never had a single Chimera survive a game I wasn't already obviously winning. And I don't think I've ever had a Rhino survive a game, period. The only time it would matter for LOS blocking purposes, is if your opponents lack mobility, which exactly 0 top-teir armies do.

Deathstar doesn't care. They're going to mulch you in melee anyhow. Eldar don't care, they move around your LOS blocker and dump 36 Scatterlaser shots into you. Tau don't care, because now you're stuck over there, and their guns still reach you, so they win. Necrons fly over top, and shoot you. Or simply advance, and shoot you. Or have Wraiths come chop you up. LOS doesn't matter to them.

So none. The answer is, they hold none. The wreckage matters not at all to the game.

While a Wave Serpent dicks off to the far corner of the battlefield, and sprays the field with a storm of firepower. Honestly.

 greatbigtree wrote:
2 Chimerae, or 4 Rhinos, hold exactly 0 objectives at the end of the game. Not because they can't, but because they're gone. I've never had a single Chimera survive a game I wasn't already obviously winning. And I don't think I've ever had a Rhino survive a game, period. The only time it would matter for LOS blocking purposes, is if your opponents lack mobility, which exactly 0 top-teir armies do.

Deathstar doesn't care. They're going to mulch you in melee anyhow. Eldar don't care, they move around your LOS blocker and dump 36 Scatterlaser shots into you.

So none. The answer is, they hold none. The wreckage matters not at all to the game.

While a Wave Serpent dicks off to the far corner of the battlefield, and sprays the field with a storm of firepower. Honestly.

And if you are playing maelstrom instead of eternal war it doesn't matter what happens by the end, they give you better board control in the middle of the game. Also while your transports are being shot at to stop your guys from getting where they want to be your other tanks aren't being shot. This doesn't work as well with a serpent because unless you put quite a lot of firepower into it it will deliver its cargo before dying.
Scatterbikes staying at max range (which they should be) won't all get around into line of sight with a 12" move. Also those 36 shots have a decent chance of taking down the serpent causing 4hp of damage to it on average if it doesn't jink. Serpent shield is worth nothing if it is just taking glances anyway.

This storm of firepower from the corner is really overplaying 7 strength 6 shots at 24" range.

Vs the firepower from 4x Rhinos... yeah.

Vs the firepower from 1x Chimera that might be alive... maybe... yeah.

Vs the firepower from a handful of Drop pods? yeah.

Vs the firepower from... anything else? Yeah.

It's got more firepower than any equivalent points of transport.
It's got more durability than any equivalent points of transport.
It's got more mobility than any equivalent points of transport... including a Pod. Cause half of them are in reserves. And once you're down you're down. How many top teir lists spam Drop Pods again? None? That's right! Just a few to put Centurions down in. And they don't need to move again, cause they've either got range or they got dead.

Martel732 wrote:
Pods aren't transports. They are models that let marines teleport. What's the difference? Being stuck on foot while the pod lives is a huge drawback. Huge, and constantly overlooked.

This.
With the exception of the Lucius Pod I've always looked at the Drop Pod as a Deep Striking turret and objective grabber than an actual transport. Bringing troops is just a bonus.
Martel is right - your troops can't re-embark on it (can't even use it as fortification) they're foot-slogging to their next destination.

greatbigtree I want to point out one important factor that you seem to have overlooked in your evaluation of the TRANSPORTS, transport capacity.

Also with cover the rhinos would probably have more durability. The pods probably can take more hits even without cover, even with a penetrating hit with an ap2 weapon they only blow up on a 5+.

It doesn't have more mobility either, it can't be in 4 places at once, it is still only dropping stuff off turn 2/3 like the reserve pods and the pods can drop stuff anywhere they are needed, bot just within 6" of the place the tank currently is.

And yes a serpent has good firepower for a transport, but in the grand scheme of things it still isn't that much.

 roflmajog wrote:
greatbigtree I want to point out one important factor that you seem to have overlooked in your evaluation of the TRANSPORTS, transport capacity.

Also with cover the rhinos would probably have more durability. The pods probably can take more hits even without cover, even with a penetrating hit with an ap2 weapon they only blow up on a 5+.

It doesn't have more mobility either, it can't be in 4 places at once, it is still only dropping stuff off turn 2/3 like the reserve pods and the pods can drop stuff anywhere they are needed, bot just within 6" of the place the tank currently is.

And yes a serpent has good firepower for a transport, but in the grand scheme of things it still isn't that much.

What about the dreadclaw.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Pods aren't transports. They are models that let marines teleport. What's the difference? Being stuck on foot while the pod lives is a huge drawback. Huge, and constantly overlooked.

This.
With the exception of the Lucius Pod I've always looked at the Drop Pod as a Deep Striking turret and objective grabber than an actual transport. Bringing troops is just a bonus.
Martel is right - your troops can't re-embark on it (can't even use it as fortification) they're foot-slogging to their next destination.

I beat careless skyhammer lists because of this quite often.

To all those who think Wave Serpents are so great: please try them. once.

morgoth wrote:
To all those who think Wave Serpents are so great: please try them. once.

Last game I used mine, it was probably my MVP of the game vs. GSC. Just dragging around a squad of guardians. But it was ObSec, and took a ton of fire. Got the troops where they needed to be, zipped around scoring milestone objectives, blowing cultists off of theirs. Eventually it did get destroyed, but so did most of my stuff that game (It was a loss).

Would I have better off with an equal value in scatbikes? Probably. But by that benchmark, 98% of the units in the game are garbage.

The WS did it’s job, and did it well. I can’t ask for much more then that from a unit.