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It's intentionally left kinda vague, but they're probably either:
Old Ones (possibly pumped up with their godlike geneticist skills)
Warp Entities created from various aspects of the Eldars' psyches (since the Eldar are so crazy psychic compared to every other race)
or
some combination of both.
Their fight with Slaanesh was probably completely in the Warp or it would've left some serious scars on the physical universe. I mean, look what Slaanesh's "birth" did. Opened the biggest hole in realspace in the galaxy.
I’m in favour of them being Warp entities that can enter the physical universe by placing part of their being inside an Avatar.
But then again it’s not like we haven’t had the possibility that a mortal being can obtain Godhood.
Spoiler:
The Eldar in Fracture of Biel-Tan seem to actually throw around the idea of a small pantheon – Khaine, Ynnead and Cegorach. Some even muse on the possibility of an equivalent female trinity – perhaps Iyanna Arienal as the maiden, Yvraine as the mother and Lady Hesperax as the crone?
While it's not directly stated, all the evidence suggests that they're warp entities (whatever their origin).
Eldar myths state that because of Khaine's actions during the War in Heaven (he went around butchering Eldar for a bit) the Gods were cut off forever from the mortal Eldar. This is likely a mythic remembering of some event whereby either the Old Ones ascended to beings in the warp, or that the Necrons had wiped out the Old Ones and the Eldar had sort of recreated them as deities from their racial memories of them (I favour the latter explanation).
Couple into that the fact that all units representing Eldar Gods or their shards have daemonic properties (inability to truly die, actually have the property 'daemon' in their codex entries) I'd say it's fairly certain that they're warp entities
I wonder if the eldar suggesting the female pantheon were joking around rather than genuinely suggesting that mortals could become gods...
Ynneadwraith wrote: While it's not directly stated, all the evidence suggests that they're warp entities (whatever their origin).
Eldar myths state that because of Khaine's actions during the War in Heaven (he went around butchering Eldar for a bit) the Gods were cut off forever from the mortal Eldar. This is likely a mythic remembering of some event whereby either the Old Ones ascended to beings in the warp, or that the Necrons had wiped out the Old Ones and the Eldar had sort of recreated them as deities from their racial memories of them (I favour the latter explanation).
Couple into that the fact that all units representing Eldar Gods or their shards have daemonic properties (inability to truly die, actually have the property 'daemon' in their codex entries) I'd say it's fairly certain that they're warp entities
I wonder if the eldar suggesting the female pantheon were joking around rather than genuinely suggesting that mortals could become gods...
This one is a very difficult issue to parse out because so many writers have gotten their mitts on the lore and tossed in whatever they felt like.
Adding "Theory 3" to the one's you've listed, there is a longstanding bit that sees the Eldar Gods as leftover weapons of the War in Heaven that gained unintentional attributes and personalities as the years went by due to psychic resonance with the Eldar Population.
regardless, i'm also of the opinion that they are warp entities as well.. although i often see the counterpoint tossed out that because attributes of "Old One" haven't really been defined, and because they were Masters of the Warp in a way that would be found mind boggling to folks in the 40K era, it may very well be that the Eldar Gods are just leftover Old Ones.
I believe folks who support this theory point to Qah, God of the Hrud, as another Old One.....
This one is a very difficult issue to parse out because so many writers have gotten their mitts on the lore and tossed in whatever they felt like.
Adding "Theory 3" to the one's you've listed, there is a longstanding bit that sees the Eldar Gods as leftover weapons of the War in Heaven that gained unintentional attributes and personalities as the years went by due to psychic resonance with the Eldar Population.
regardless, i'm also of the opinion that they are warp entities as well.. although i often see the counterpoint tossed out that because attributes of "Old One" haven't really been defined, and because they were Masters of the Warp in a way that would be found mind boggling to folks in the 40K era, it may very well be that the Eldar Gods are just leftover Old Ones.
I believe folks who support this theory point to Qah, God of the Hrud, as another Old One.....
Exactly as 40k lore should be! Vague, conflicting and untrustworthy perfect
I quite like the whole 'amalgamated weapons of war' option too. No reason multiple of the options couldn't be true of course.
They might be amalgamated weapons of war, forged by the Eldar in the image of the Old Ones. That way all 3 options could well be at least partially true!
My Theory: The Eldar pantheon was originally the group of Old Ones that created the Eldar to fight the Necrontyr. After the War in Heaven, the Old Ones disappeared from the galaxy, but they lived on in the Eldar myths.
As Eldar are psychic, this probably created manifestations of their gods in the warp, similar to how the Emprah has powers because of how the trillions upon trillions on humans worship him. Unlike Slaanesh, the creation of this pantheon was probably peaceful and the entities were Warp entities. Remember pre-Fall all Eldar souls would peacefully go into the Warp upon death to be reborn later. It is only She Who Thirsts that changed that and killed all but 3 of the existing Pantheon (Khaine who was shattered, Isha was kdnapped by Nurgle and the Laughing god fled into the Webway)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/09 20:33:07
Galef wrote: My Theory: The Eldar pantheon was originally the group of Old Ones that created the Eldar to fight the Necrontyr.
After the War in Heaven, the Old Ones disappeared from the galaxy, but they lived on in the Eldar myths.
As Eldar are psychic, this probably created manifestations of their gods in the warp, similar to how the Emprah has powers because of how the trillions upon trillions on humans worship him.
Unlike Slaanesh, the creation of this pantheon was probably peaceful and the entities were Warp entities. Remember pre-Fall all Eldar souls would peacefully go into the Warp upon death to be reborn later. It is only She Who Thirsts that changed that and killed all but 3 of the existing Pantheon (Khaine who was shattered, Isha was kdnapped by Nurgle and the Laughing god fled into the Webway)
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Yep this is my favourite interpretation as well.
Especially seeing as Cegorach has so many parallels with The Deceiver. I view Cegorach as the psychically manifested racial memory that the Eldar have of him during the War in Heaven (as he played both sides during the conflict).
I made a thread about this a while ago where, in addition to the already mentioned, I added the possibility of one or two of them being C'tans that either swapped side or never liked the other C'tan to begin with. I think the theory hold some merit though it was not recieved well.
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
I always defended the fact that GW left it quite vague the Eldar Gods origin never allowed us to be sure if they where Real beings, myths or manifestations but with Fracture of Biel-tan we can draw further assumptions.
The original Mythic beings are still somewhat obscure in their origins and as someone mentioned maybe those are Old ones, Eldar Constructs or even a different faction of C'tan.
The current ones Khaine, Ynnead and Cegorach are also different from each other so we can't still draw a clear conclussion.
Khaine seems broken and Fragmented like his Avatars practically gonne unless some Avatar it's awakened in a Craftworld, also this Avatar are a reflection of Khaine (wich they behave quite differently than the Greater Daemons of Chaos ) further details of this with Ynnead explanation.
Cegorach, maybe a Eldar psyche Construct or a surviving Old One or something different, but some of the text in Fracture of Biel-Tan reveal him as something playing at leagues apart similar to Tzeencht plots.
It is revealed that Dance without end from Harlies it's specially Coreographed to mimic the specific battle between Yvraine and Slaaneshi forces in Belial IV and guide her to the Cronesword (wich should take ages to be planned as such) also it's hinted most of Harlequins seems to know the fate of most Eldar even better than any other Farseer can predict, always *smiling or expecting* the pivotal moment where something can change the course of Fate, a Webway ambush from Masque of Slaanesh, Kysaduras step in to intercede for Yvraine, or they are plotting with all Eldar Fate in a whole Galactic scale compared with the most localized for Craftworld Defense most Farseers do.
Ynnead, for the 1st time an Eldar God it's show as something aware of itself or even acting with his followers, (when he talks to Yvraine as Daugther and heals her or when Cegorach enjoy Yvraine trick on Ahriman) yet it's like anything we have seen yet.
The Example it's the Yncarne while it's an Avatar on the likes of Khaine all the book it's just behave as a construct or *pet* that just fight along, it never shares it's opinions or talk by itself all it does it's behave like a living weapon crushing Yvraine opponents and rarely does anything else than just stand around.. (it does not have a personality on it's own like Greater Daemons and sometimes it's even show he answers to Yvraine commands just like a pet )
Nerak wrote: I made a thread about this a while ago where, in addition to the already mentioned, I added the possibility of one or two of them being C'tans that either swapped side or never liked the other C'tan to begin with. I think the theory hold some merit though it was not recieved well.
Yeah I remember that. I do think that it could hold some water as there's a quote in one of the Old (pre-Necron I think) Eldar codices about gods during the War in Heaven switching sides throughout the conflict.
It's likelihood is predicated by a number of things.
1. That the Eldar War in Heaven and the Necron War in Heaven are the same event remembered from two different perspectives (which I consider to be highly likely)
2. That there are Eldar Gods that the existing fluff doesn't show connection to the warp (the C'Tan are anathema to it)
From the second one, we can start to rule out potential C'Tan-gods:
Khaine cannot be one as his Avatars are daemons
Isha cannot be one as she is in the warp with Nurgle (which would kill a C'Tan)
Vaul I initially thought could, but then his Blackstone Fortresses have warp-based weapons which are beyond the C'Tan's knowledge
Cegorach might be, but it's said he challenges Slaanesh for the souls of Solitaires. Admittedly, there's no actual proof more than rumour that that's what he does (it's not as if those dead Solitaires can come back and say that they're all hunky dory), but it's a psychic interaction that the C'Tan would be incapable of.
That leaves Lileath, Morai-Heg, Asuryan and Kurnous.
Personally, I think it's more likely that the Eldar Gods are psychic manifestations of the memory of the big players during the War in Heaven (given that it's stated that the Old Ones were wiped out it's less likely to be them). That way, it's likely that some psychic constructs are based on C'Tan, but remembered from the Eldar perspective. Cegorach is the ideal candidate for this as his actions in the War in Heaven are very, very similar to those of The Deceiver.
Lord Perversor wrote: I always defended the fact that GW left it quite vague the Eldar Gods origin never allowed us to be sure if they where Real beings, myths or manifestations
Man after my own heart!
It's the air of ignorance and mystery that gives the ancient (and recent) history of 40k its feeling of depth and scope. If we were simply told everything about it it would feel very small indeed.
I always liken it to the way Morrowind treated its lore. You never get told everything all in one place. You pick it up from the books you read and people you speak to in-universe, in fragments that might potentially be biased or unreliable. It feels very realistic and is very, very intriguing.
With Fracture of Biel-tan we can draw further assumptions.
The original Mythic beings are still somewhat obscure in their origins and as someone mentioned maybe those are Old ones, Eldar Constructs or even a different faction of C'tan.
The current ones Khaine, Ynnead and Cegorach are also different from each other so we can't still draw a clear conclussion.
Khaine seems broken and Fragmented like his Avatars practically gonne unless some Avatar it's awakened in a Craftworld, also this Avatar are a reflection of Khaine (wich they behave quite differently than the Greater Daemons of Chaos ) further details of this with Ynnead explanation.
Cegorach, maybe a Eldar psyche Construct or a surviving Old One or something different, but some of the text in Fracture of Biel-Tan reveal him as something playing at leagues apart similar to Tzeencht plots.
It is revealed that Dance without end from Harlies it's specially Coreographed to mimic the specific battle between Yvraine and Slaaneshi forces in Belial IV and guide her to the Cronesword (wich should take ages to be planned as such) also it's hinted most of Harlequins seems to know the fate of most Eldar even better than any other Farseer can predict, always *smiling or expecting* the pivotal moment where something can change the course of Fate, a Webway ambush from Masque of Slaanesh, Kysaduras step in to intercede for Yvraine, or they are plotting with all Eldar Fate in a whole Galactic scale compared with the most localized for Craftworld Defense most Farseers do.
Ynnead, for the 1st time an Eldar God it's show as something aware of itself or even acting with his followers, (when he talks to Yvraine as Daugther and heals her or when Cegorach enjoy Yvraine trick on Ahriman) yet it's like anything we have seen yet.
The Example it's the Yncarne while it's an Avatar on the likes of Khaine all the book it's just behave as a construct or *pet* that just fight along, it never shares it's opinions or talk by itself all it does it's behave like a living weapon crushing Yvraine opponents and rarely does anything else than just stand around.. (it does not have a personality on it's own like Greater Daemons and sometimes it's even show he answers to Yvraine commands just like a pet )
Interesting.
With Khaine and his Avatars, I think that the issue is one of consciousness. Since he's shattered into so many fragments that he no longer possesses a single consciousness it makes sense that his Avatars lack that as well. When they're awakened by the sacrifice of the Young King, it's stated that they awaken with the knowledge of the situation that the Young King possessed. I wonder if Avatars utilise that spark of consciousness that they get from the sacrifice to come into being, or rather, I wonder whether the soul of the Young King acts as a conduit for Khaine's power and briefly gives it agency in the materium until it burns out.
When you say the Avatar follows Yvraine around like a pet, do you mean the Avatar of Khaine or the Avatar of Ynnead (need better distinctions for those two!)?
The Ynneadvatar seems to have more agency than the Khainvatar, but you're right it doesn't act with the sort of authority and overarching plan that Cegorach does. It appears that Yvraine is the driving force of what thy do. Perhaps that's because Ynnead is still a nascent entity, and only partially conscious. That puts it inbetween the unconscious Khaine and the fully conscious Cegorach.
The Yncarne is the one that follows Yvraine around, though it seemingly wanders off on its own to go hang out with the Phoenix Lords and stomp a load of deamons at one point, suggesting it has some level of independence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 18:50:59
I don't see the Yncarne as Yvraine's pet, but more like the Yncarne follows Yvraine around because their goals align. I see Yncarne as a part of Ynnead that is lucid dreaming or having a waking dream, and its goal to awaken the rest of Ynnead.
What I find interesting is how the book says the Chaos gods cannot look at the Yncarne and how they cannot see it even if they did look. However I think they could still be aware of it in much the same way that a person can still be aware of an invisible thing by deducing from the changes it causes to the environment around it. The Greater Daemons the Yncarne fights seem to have no trouble seeing it but I chalk that up to them being partly material and therefore perceiving the material form of the Yncarne visually even if they cannot sense it with just warp senses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 20:51:07
tgs6000 wrote: I have always been confused about the eldar gods, were they physical beings or warp entities?
and where did the fighting with slaanesh occur? the warp or elsewhere?
Thank you
I always saw them as such.
To me, they always were warp entities but share nothing in common with the chaotic ones besides of coming from the same thoughtgoop.
The eldar gods are an example of what can be made when there is a concentrated effort into a belief. Then, they made She Who Thirsts because they took joy in random things and there was no actual structure to this belief. Since then, they have all been very aware of their death and preparing for it and because of this they got their god of death.
So, why does their death god have some chaotic resemblance to it? That's because of the Harlequin Eldar. They have always skated the line between order, death, and chaos. In reenactments of the great fall they always had a solitaire playing as Slaneesh.
The chaotic gods have more of a resemblance of chaos because there was never any real concentrated effort to form them, like Slaneesh.
tgs6000 wrote: I have always been confused about the eldar gods, were they physical beings or warp entities?
and where did the fighting with slaanesh occur? the warp or elsewhere?
Thank you
I always saw them as such.
To me, they always were warp entities but share nothing in common with the chaotic ones besides of coming from the same thoughtgoop.
The eldar gods are an example of what can be made when there is a concentrated effort into a belief. Then, they made She Who Thirsts because they took joy in random things and there was no actual structure to this belief. Since then, they have all been very aware of their death and preparing for it and because of this they got their god of death.
So, why does their death god have some chaotic resemblance to it? That's because of the Harlequin Eldar. They have always skated the line between order, death, and chaos. In reenactments of the great fall they always had a solitaire playing as Slaneesh.
The chaotic gods have more of a resemblance of chaos because there was never any real concentrated effort to form them, like Slaneesh.
What I have commented and questioned before is why Ynnead is not more Craftworlder in aesthetics and behavior considering it is formed from the souls in Craftworlx infinity circuits. Years ago I imagined that Ynnead's form might be more like that of a Farseer with wraithbone, spirit stones and jewels, and a ghosthelm-like mask or helmet. Again due to its Craftworlder origins, I imagined Ynnead as offering a form of austere salvation, rather than GW's "Let's throw away the Path and act like the ancient Aeldari all over again".
tgs6000 wrote: I have always been confused about the eldar gods, were they physical beings or warp entities?
and where did the fighting with slaanesh occur? the warp or elsewhere?
Thank you
I always saw them as such.
To me, they always were warp entities but share nothing in common with the chaotic ones besides of coming from the same thoughtgoop.
The eldar gods are an example of what can be made when there is a concentrated effort into a belief. Then, they made She Who Thirsts because they took joy in random things and there was no actual structure to this belief. Since then, they have all been very aware of their death and preparing for it and because of this they got their god of death.
So, why does their death god have some chaotic resemblance to it? That's because of the Harlequin Eldar. They have always skated the line between order, death, and chaos. In reenactments of the great fall they always had a solitaire playing as Slaneesh.
The chaotic gods have more of a resemblance of chaos because there was never any real concentrated effort to form them, like Slaneesh.
What I have commented and questioned before is why Ynnead is not more Craftworlder in aesthetics and behavior considering it is formed from the souls in Craftworlx infinity circuits. Years ago I imagined that Ynnead's form might be more like that of a Farseer with wraithbone, spirit stones and jewels, and a ghosthelm-like mask or helmet. Again due to its Craftworlder origins, I imagined Ynnead as offering a form of austere salvation, rather than GW's "Let's throw away the Path and act like the ancient Aeldari all over again".
Maybe it is because wasn't just CWE that contributed to Ynnead.
tgs6000 wrote: I have always been confused about the eldar gods, were they physical beings or warp entities?
and where did the fighting with slaanesh occur? the warp or elsewhere?
Thank you
I always saw them as such.
To me, they always were warp entities but share nothing in common with the chaotic ones besides of coming from the same thoughtgoop.
The eldar gods are an example of what can be made when there is a concentrated effort into a belief. Then, they made She Who Thirsts because they took joy in random things and there was no actual structure to this belief. Since then, they have all been very aware of their death and preparing for it and because of this they got their god of death.
So, why does their death god have some chaotic resemblance to it? That's because of the Harlequin Eldar. They have always skated the line between order, death, and chaos. In reenactments of the great fall they always had a solitaire playing as Slaneesh.
The chaotic gods have more of a resemblance of chaos because there was never any real concentrated effort to form them, like Slaneesh.
What I have commented and questioned before is why Ynnead is not more Craftworlder in aesthetics and behavior considering it is formed from the souls in Craftworlx infinity circuits. Years ago I imagined that Ynnead's form might be more like that of a Farseer with wraithbone, spirit stones and jewels, and a ghosthelm-like mask or helmet. Again due to its Craftworlder origins, I imagined Ynnead as offering a form of austere salvation, rather than GW's "Let's throw away the Path and act like the ancient Aeldari all over again".
Maybe it is because wasn't just CWE that contributed to Ynnead.
That is incorrect. Ynnead is explicitly stated to be formed from the souls in infinity circuits which means it is Craftworld Eldar only as they are the only ones that store their souls in infinity circuits. The Exodites use stones and have World Spirits but there is no previous evidence showing them to be part of making Ynnead. When Eldrad listened to Ynnead's pulse, he was written as listening to the thrum of activity in the circuits of all the craftworlds (only).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 21:32:19
tgs6000 wrote: I have always been confused about the eldar gods, were they physical beings or warp entities?
and where did the fighting with slaanesh occur? the warp or elsewhere?
Thank you
I always saw them as such.
To me, they always were warp entities but share nothing in common with the chaotic ones besides of coming from the same thoughtgoop.
The eldar gods are an example of what can be made when there is a concentrated effort into a belief. Then, they made She Who Thirsts because they took joy in random things and there was no actual structure to this belief. Since then, they have all been very aware of their death and preparing for it and because of this they got their god of death.
So, why does their death god have some chaotic resemblance to it? That's because of the Harlequin Eldar. They have always skated the line between order, death, and chaos. In reenactments of the great fall they always had a solitaire playing as Slaneesh.
The chaotic gods have more of a resemblance of chaos because there was never any real concentrated effort to form them, like Slaneesh.
What I have commented and questioned before is why Ynnead is not more Craftworlder in aesthetics and behavior considering it is formed from the souls in Craftworlx infinity circuits. Years ago I imagined that Ynnead's form might be more like that of a Farseer with wraithbone, spirit stones and jewels, and a ghosthelm-like mask or helmet. Again due to its Craftworlder origins, I imagined Ynnead as offering a form of austere salvation, rather than GW's "Let's throw away the Path and act like the ancient Aeldari all over again".
Maybe it is because wasn't just CWE that contributed to Ynnead.
That is incorrect. Ynnead is explicitly stated to be formed from the souls in infinity circuits which means it is Craftworld Eldar only as they are the only ones that store their souls in infinity circuits. The Exodites use stones and have World Spirits but there is no previous evidence showing them to be part of making Ynnead. When Eldrad listened to Ynnead's pulse, he was written as listening to the thrum of activity in the circuits of all the craftworlds (only).
I guess I am taking away from the fluff that Ynnead is more than just CWE souls but they were the architects of her formation.
And what I have been saying repeatedly is that there is no textual evidence for anything other than Craftworlder souls going into Ynnead as they are the only Eldar that use spirit stones and put them into infinity circuits. Ynnead the entity might want to save all Eldar but Ynnead is formed from Craftworld souls.
