Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 13:31:28
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Agile Revenant Titan
|
The Strength from Death rule activates within 7" (or a multiple), the Reborn Host's benefit kicks in at 7 units, plus a couple of other little instances that have slipped my mind. 7 is a weird number to pick when near everything else is in multiples of 6, so the use of 7 almost certainly has an intended implication.
7 is Nurgle's sacred number.
So, the question is, what is the connection between the Eldar Gods (specifically Ynnead) and the Chaos Gods?
Is the Eldar pantheon a mirror for the Chaos one? Nurgle/Ynnead as god of death (but also hope), Khorne/Khaine is a pretty obvious one, and Cegorach/Tzeentch have obvious parallels.
Or, is there something more sinister at work with Ynnead...
Ideas?
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/11 16:18:08
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 17:10:21
Subject: Re:Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Mighty Vampire Count
|
One intrepretation is that Gods portfolios overlap
So Khaine is a part of Khorne and Slaanesh, Ynnead might well be a part of Nurgle and Slaanesh as well as a entity in its own right - similar to Isha. It does nto mean that the Chaos Gods have direct power over them but they are still part of them - if you see what I mean
The fluff twists and turns about quite a bit as to what the gods are - especially the non Chaos ones - in some of the old WFB books I recal the Elf Gods being massive Cthuloid entities that exisit beyond real space and barely notice the "real" world or a small fraciton of them does and thats the God.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/11 17:11:11
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 17:31:58
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Cackling Chaos Conscript
|
There are no gods but the Dark Gods
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 19:17:42
Subject: Re:Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Stealthy Kroot Stalker
|
I imagine it relates to the "Seventh Path" that was mentioned as an alternative to the existing prophesy of Ynnead that he would only arise (and do his thang to Slaanesh) AFTER all the Eldar have died.
Given the control over life and death that Ynnead has, it does seem like you could argue there is an overlap with Nurgle... but I think, in the end, a number is a number is a number, and just because its a sacred number for a Chaos God doesn't mean it can't be sacred/important for another warp entity.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 20:01:08
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Bryan Ansell
|
It would be yummy if Papa Nurgle is ready to Usurp Slaaneshes hold over the Eldar race. Why wouldnt he want millions of psychically attuned beings who effectively want to cling to life after death? Papas power waxes as Slaanesh wains.
For a double whammy fluff has it that Fulgrims blade was poisoned so why not a nice cure from Nurgles garden to bring back Gulliman. A cure in the loosest sense of course.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 20:58:22
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Swift Swooping Hawk
|
I'm not sure there is a connection - Ynnead is described in the book as being anathema to the Chaos Gods, to the point where the Chaos Gods themselves can't even look directly at the Yncarne.
Which also explains how Ynnead is supposed to be able to kill Slaanesh, I guess.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/11 20:58:39
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/11 21:49:13
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Ancient Chaos Terminator
|
The human brain loves to look for patterns.
In this case, no, there is no link.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 05:11:12
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
|
Robin5t wrote:I'm not sure there is a connection - Ynnead is described in the book as being anathema to the Chaos Gods, to the point where the Chaos Gods themselves can't even look directly at the Yncarne.
Which also explains how Ynnead is supposed to be able to kill Slaanesh, I guess.
Do they actually use the word "Anathema"?
|
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 05:35:14
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Been Around the Block
|
Nah its just more random distance increments to get you ready for the AOSified 40k.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 12:34:03
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Swift Swooping Hawk
|
BrianDavion wrote: Robin5t wrote:I'm not sure there is a connection - Ynnead is described in the book as being anathema to the Chaos Gods, to the point where the Chaos Gods themselves can't even look directly at the Yncarne.
Which also explains how Ynnead is supposed to be able to kill Slaanesh, I guess.
Do they actually use the word "Anathema"?
Yep.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 16:48:16
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
Ynneadwraith wrote:The Strength from Death rule activates within 7" (or a multiple), the Reborn Host's benefit kicks in at 7 units, plus a couple of other little instances that have slipped my mind. 7 is a weird number to pick when near everything else is in multiples of 6, so the use of 7 almost certainly has an intended implication.
7 is Nurgle's sacred number.
So, the question is, what is the connection between the Eldar Gods (specifically Ynnead) and the Chaos Gods?
Is the Eldar pantheon a mirror for the Chaos one? Nurgle/Ynnead as god of death (but also hope), Khorne/Khaine is a pretty obvious one, and Cegorach/Tzeentch have obvious parallels.
Or, is there something more sinister at work with Ynnead...
Ideas?
A complex subject but i believe yes. The Chaos gods usurped and murdered the Eldar eldar gods that represented many of things they represent now, the eldar gods were manifest by the beliefs of the eldar, the chaos gods by the less focused beliefs of other races. With the fall of the Eldar their previously small share of the pie became much larger as they accumulated the realms or warp energy that once were the domain of the Eldar gods.
I don't think Yennead is chaos tainted, at least not yet from what i have heard in this story. But Yennead and papa Nurgle do likely have a throw down coming because they share similar qualities and thus are drawing on the same beliefs and ideas for power. So a conflict there seems inevitable. But not before the battle with Slaanesh, unless Nurlge intervenes in that battle, which i could see happening.
We will have to wait to see
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 21:51:14
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
|
Robin5t wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Robin5t wrote:I'm not sure there is a connection - Ynnead is described in the book as being anathema to the Chaos Gods, to the point where the Chaos Gods themselves can't even look directly at the Yncarne.
Which also explains how Ynnead is supposed to be able to kill Slaanesh, I guess.
Do they actually use the word "Anathema"?
Yep.
that's intresting, VERY VERY intresting given the only other party chaos has EVER used that word for
|
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 22:11:46
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
husker98 wrote: Ynneadwraith wrote:The Strength from Death rule activates within 7" (or a multiple), the Reborn Host's benefit kicks in at 7 units, plus a couple of other little instances that have slipped my mind. 7 is a weird number to pick when near everything else is in multiples of 6, so the use of 7 almost certainly has an intended implication.
7 is Nurgle's sacred number.
So, the question is, what is the connection between the Eldar Gods (specifically Ynnead) and the Chaos Gods?
Is the Eldar pantheon a mirror for the Chaos one? Nurgle/Ynnead as god of death (but also hope), Khorne/Khaine is a pretty obvious one, and Cegorach/Tzeentch have obvious parallels.
Or, is there something more sinister at work with Ynnead...
Ideas?
A complex subject but i believe yes. The Chaos gods usurped and murdered the Eldar eldar gods that represented many of things they represent now, the eldar gods were manifest by the beliefs of the eldar, the chaos gods by the less focused beliefs of other races. With the fall of the Eldar their previously small share of the pie became much larger as they accumulated the realms or warp energy that once were the domain of the Eldar gods.
I don't think Yennead is chaos tainted, at least not yet from what i have heard in this story. But Yennead and papa Nurgle do likely have a throw down coming because they share similar qualities and thus are drawing on the same beliefs and ideas for power. So a conflict there seems inevitable. But not before the battle with Slaanesh, unless Nurlge intervenes in that battle, which i could see happening.
We will have to wait to see
I'm not sure that's how it was. The Eldar's consciousness, specifically their debauchery and hedonism, was the final nail in the coffin that spawned Slannesh who single handedly destroyed the Eldar pantheon with minor input from Khorne who shattered Khaine and Nurgle who imprisioned Isha. Khorne is the canon most powerful Chaos deity (and by virtue of that, the strongest divinity in Warhammer) and stronger than Slannesh. Additionally, Tzeentch was once the strongest (before Slannesh even came to be) and was able to calm the entire warp (ergo ruiling it) in a symbiotic relationship with the success of humanity and the eldar (showing that the Chaos Gods were fed by more than one race and also by the raw actions/emotions of those races). The other Chaos Gods were not directly involved in the downfall of the Eldar pantheon because they didn't need to be. Simply put it'd be like a space marine getting involved with the affairs of children (the Eldar gods being the children). The Chaos Gods are the manifestation of major overarching concepts that cover massive swathes (hence their 'supreme' power) of existence (Khorne - anger/rage/war, Tzeentch - hope, change/evolution, knowledge, Nurgle - death, despair, decay/entropy).
The lack of the Chaos God's prior intervention can be simply put down to there being no particular need for them to intervene (as K/T/N all gained consciousness 29k years before 40k is set). There was no one strong enough to oppose them and there still really isn't (which has been a common theme in Warhammer fluff, the CG's focus is 99% of the time on each other as they're the only real threat to one another in the 'Great Game'). Slannesh's involvement with the Eldar was a situation of birth and their God's attempts to oppose him/her and then the ability of the Emperor to combat their 'active' followers through faith and science but ultimately the game has been rigged from the start. You fight them, Khorne wins, you plan to fight them, Tzeentch wins, anyone dies and the pestilence of war, Nurgle wins, you enjoy the slaughter and celebrate, Slannesh wins. The only thing you can really do is take out their mortal followers and agents and stop their direct influence in the mortal plains by sealing the warp with science.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/12 22:14:22
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Sinewy Scourge
|
Don't know if this has been said before, but its because Ynead is related to the 7th path and the such.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/13 12:17:31
Subject: Re:Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Agile Revenant Titan
|
Mr Morden wrote:One intrepretation is that Gods portfolios overlap
So Khaine is a part of Khorne and Slaanesh, Ynnead might well be a part of Nurgle and Slaanesh as well as a entity in its own right - similar to Isha. It does nto mean that the Chaos Gods have direct power over them but they are still part of them - if you see what I mean
The fluff twists and turns about quite a bit as to what the gods are - especially the non Chaos ones - in some of the old WFB books I recal the Elf Gods being massive Cthuloid entities that exisit beyond real space and barely notice the "real" world or a small fraciton of them does and thats the God.
Yeah I've heard that before about the Eldar gods 'coming under the jurisdiction' of the Chaos Gods which I always thought was a bit of a retcon and a bit janky as far as fluff went. Devalues the Eldar Gods and makes everything more human/Imperium-centric than it already was.
Not to say it's not the way it is, just that I feel it's crap.
Love the idea that both the Eldar/Elven gods and the Chaos Gods are vast multi-dimensional cthulthoid beings, with only a small part of them visible as a 'god' in each dimension. Anything that ups the 'lovecraft' in 40k is good for me  plus, it neatly explains how the same (or similar) characters appear in both Fantasy/ AoS and 40k.
Unusual Suspect wrote:I imagine it relates to the "Seventh Path" that was mentioned as an alternative to the existing prophesy of Ynnead that he would only arise (and do his thang to Slaanesh) AFTER all the Eldar have died.
Given the control over life and death that Ynnead has, it does seem like you could argue there is an overlap with Nurgle... but I think, in the end, a number is a number is a number, and just because its a sacred number for a Chaos God doesn't mean it can't be sacred/important for another warp entity.
Agreed it could well just be a number that they've pulled out of their arse, but I do actually have some amount of faith that the writers are smart dudes  certainly Jes Goodwin around Eldar fluff. If it is a coincidence, then it's a mighty coincidence that the Eldar God of Death and the Chaos God of Decay both have a connection to the same number. Especially seeing as it does appear to be an otherwise unconnected number (it's not as if we've been told of the 6 other ways, and this just happens to be the 7th).
Mr. Burning wrote:It would be yummy if Papa Nurgle is ready to Usurp Slaaneshes hold over the Eldar race. Why wouldnt he want millions of psychically attuned beings who effectively want to cling to life after death? Papas power waxes as Slaanesh wains.
For a double whammy fluff has it that Fulgrims blade was poisoned so why not a nice cure from Nurgles garden to bring back Gulliman. A cure in the loosest sense of course.
It would certainly be neat if Ynnead didn't turn out to be quite as benevolent as anticipated...
Robin5t wrote:I'm not sure there is a connection - Ynnead is described in the book as being anathema to the Chaos Gods, to the point where the Chaos Gods themselves can't even look directly at the Yncarne.
Which also explains how Ynnead is supposed to be able to kill Slaanesh, I guess.
That could just mean he's diametrically opposed to them. It's not necessarily that Ynnead is connected to or part of Nurgle. More likely that each Eldar God is a reflection of a Chaos God (or vice versa, depending on who came first),, creating a sort of mirror-pantheon.
Rippy wrote:The human brain loves to look for patterns.
In this case, no, there is no link.
And a good writer will use that to their advantage  the argument becomes one of 'would the writer have thought about that beforehand?'. In most cases (i.e. not Goto or Ward) I do believe the writers put a lot of forethought into what they write.
husker98 wrote:
A complex subject but i believe yes. The Chaos gods usurped and murdered the Eldar eldar gods that represented many of things they represent now, the eldar gods were manifest by the beliefs of the eldar, the chaos gods by the less focused beliefs of other races. With the fall of the Eldar their previously small share of the pie became much larger as they accumulated the realms or warp energy that once were the domain of the Eldar gods.
I don't think Yennead is chaos tainted, at least not yet from what i have heard in this story. But Yennead and papa Nurgle do likely have a throw down coming because they share similar qualities and thus are drawing on the same beliefs and ideas for power. So a conflict there seems inevitable. But not before the battle with Slaanesh, unless Nurlge intervenes in that battle, which i could see happening.
We will have to wait to see
Agreed. It will be interesting to see where they go with it
What I think is happening is that there's a mirror-pantheon of Eldar Gods forming in opposition to the Chaos ones, which could result in some very interesting interactions.
BrianDavion wrote:
that's intresting, VERY VERY intresting given the only other party chaos has EVER used that word for
That is very, very interesting. I really hope it doesn't end up with Ynnead being the Starchild and the Imperium and Eldar are united as one happy-clappy anti-Chaos Grand Alliance.
I think it's unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility which makes me retch slightly...
gummyofallbears wrote:Don't know if this has been said before, but its because Ynead is related to the 7th path and the such.
Yeah that's another reference  however, they don't really give a decent explanation of why the path is the '7th' path. It's not as if the other 6 paths are already enshrined within the fluff, and this one's new. They've picked the number '7' out of the air, so either it's completely inconsequential or they've picked it out for a reason
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/13 15:40:51
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Infiltrating Broodlord
Lake County, Illinois
|
Perhaps a hint that this will not save the Eldar, and is just a false hope. After all, isn't being in denial of the inevitable demise of all things (especially yourself) exactly Nurgle's thing? And isn't that exactly the thinking of this cult of Ynnead?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/02/13 15:58:29
Subject: Connection between Ynnead and Nurgle?
|
 |
Agile Revenant Titan
|
Albino Squirrel wrote:Perhaps a hint that this will not save the Eldar, and is just a false hope. After all, isn't being in denial of the inevitable demise of all things (especially yourself) exactly Nurgle's thing? And isn't that exactly the thinking of this cult of Ynnead?
Precisely
Actually, something else that's made a connection. One of the positive emotions that Nurgle feeds on is hope. Interesting...
*scratches tinfoil hat thoughtfully
|
|
|
 |
 |
|