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So kabalite trueborn technically come under the same unit entry as kabalite warriors, but as an upgrade that changes their FOC slot. If a formation requires kabalite warriors, can they be upgraded to trueborn? The same goes for wyches and bloosbrides.

No, like you said, they've become a different unit with a different name. It's GW's way of saving space listing similar units together.

From the DE FAQ:
Q: As they are upgrades to Kabalite Warriors and do not
have their own datasheet, do Kabalite Trueborn still count
as Kabalite Warriors for the purposes of the Kabalite Raiding
Party Formation?
A: Yes.

As for the Reborn Warhosts, I do think you can take reborns, as you're allowed to take all the available upgrades for every unit listed. However I'm not sure if they still count as a troop choice or if they end up counting as an elite choice.

Which formation did you have in mind?

fresus wrote:
Which formation did you have in mind?

None in particular, it is was just a general question. Although the start collecting formation does come to mind. Taking bloodbrides instead of wyches for the Ynnari formations might be an idea I try though.

 Big Mac wrote:
No, like you said, they've become a different unit with a different name. It's GW's way of saving space listing similar units together.

This is completely wrong. Trueborn and Bloodbrides are a 3pt/model upgrade to Kabalite Warriors and Wyches that changes their FOC role as well.

 Imateria wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
No, like you said, they've become a different unit with a different name. It's GW's way of saving space listing similar units together.

This is completely wrong. Trueborn and Bloodbrides are a 3pt/model upgrade to Kabalite Warriors and Wyches that changes their FOC role as well.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I have found the above mentioned FAQ which pretty much answers my question.

The problem is that FAQ answer completely goes the opposite way when asked about turning a Captain into a Chapter Master for Space Marines. As the answer was no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: Can the Captain requirement in a Demi-company, for
example the Battle Demi-company in a Gladius Strike Force, be
upgraded to a Chapter Master? None of the alternate named
characters are currently Chapter Masters.
A: No.

The other problem for the reborn warhost is the DE FAQ answer is for a formation without FOC slots.

The reborn warhost has formation slots which can only be filled by certain units. Elites/ warriors, and elites/trueborn are not options on that list.

So if you upgrade to trueborn you end up with a combination that does not fall on e the list of things to fill the warhost FOC. RAW we can't go back and say the elite trueborn fill the troop warrior slot, and there is no option for them to fill an elite slot from the listed units...

This is silly

Do we have permission to take Warriors? Yes
Do Warrior have the option to be upgraded to Trueborn? Yes, and will therefore be counted as Elites
Does the Reborn Host restrict this upgrade? Absolutely not.

Trueborn and Bloodbrides are not listed as options in the Elite slots because you cannot buy them as Elites in the first place, not even for a CAD. You buy them as their Troop equivalent, then upgrade them. They then stop occupying the Troop slot, and occupy an Elite slot instead.
But you had to take them in the list in order to upgrade them. Period.

-

 Galef wrote:
This is silly

Do we have permission to take Warriors? Yes
Do Warrior have the option to be upgraded to Trueborn? Yes, and will therefore be counted as Elites
Does the Reborn Host restrict this upgrade? Absolutely not.

Trueborn and Bloodbrides are not listed as options in the Elite slots because you cannot buy them as Elites in the first place, not even for a CAD. You buy them as their Troop equivalent, then upgrade them. They then stop occupying the Troop slot, and occupy an Elite slot instead.
But you had to take them in the list in order to upgrade them. Period.

-

See this is what I was thinking in the first place. I saw the reborn warhost as being more like an alternative FOC which allows formations to be taken as an unlimited slot. My question was more about formations which specify you have to take a unit of kabalite warriors or wyches, and whether you can take trueborn or bloodbrides respectively instead.

This may all be a moot point anyway since no Ynnari player in their right mind would take Trueborn over Fire Dragons, or Bloodbrides over.....literally any other Aeldari melee unit

 Galef wrote:
This may all be a moot point anyway since no Ynnari player in their right mind would take Trueborn over Fire Dragons, or Bloodbrides over.....literally any other Aeldari melee unit

Unless they're doing it for fun or fluff. Some of the formations do specify wyches and the FAQ suggests that we may be able to use bloodbrides for this.

Its an upgrade...... GW faqs even say they can be used in formations.

Its not a new unit.... AN UPGRADE

Here is another Example

Eldar Farseer, you buy upgrade for Jetbike the farseer is now a "Skyrunner" there is no "Skyrunner Farseer" in the lists either But you dont argue about that.... why? B.c its an upgrade.

FFS.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its an upgrade...... GW faqs even say they can be used in formations.

Its not a new unit.... AN UPGRADE

Here is another Example

Eldar Farseer, you buy upgrade for Jetbike the farseer is now a "Skyrunner" there is no "Skyrunner Farseer" in the lists either But you dont argue about that.... why? B.c its an upgrade.

FFS.

This^^

Farseer Skyrunner is technically a different unit that Farseer. They share the same datasheet and the Skyrunner is an upgrade to the Farseer. There are exactly zero formations that call for "Farseer Skyrunner", but several that have Restrictions requiring the Skyrunner upgrade

-

I would then take you back to Captain -> Chapter master upgrade which isn´t allowed in formations.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I would then take you back to Captain -> Chapter master upgrade which isn´t allowed in formations.

DE faq says you can for Trueborns in formations, thats also a difference.

Yes but that formation is specific to unit and not battlefield roll.

I was referring to the farseer example.

We have 2 rulings by GW in FAQs regarding specific formations. Therefore neither can be used as an argument for detachments outside of those formations especially where they involve battlefield roles and not specific units.

Honestly if someone wanted to use trueborn over fire dragons I will never say no b.c fire dragons are just better in every way, i see no reason to even argue someone wanting to take an over costed weaker unit. lol

 rawne2510 wrote:

We have 2 rulings by GW in FAQs regarding specific formations. Therefore neither can be used as an argument for detachments outside of those formations especially where they involve battlefield roles and not specific units.

I agree that we cannot use the Captain -> Chapter Master FAQ here as precedence because if contradicts the Trueborn FAQ. And I would say they cancel each other out in regards to the Farseer/ Skyrunner situation.
However, in this case, we are specifically talking about Trueborn, who not only have permission via FAQ to be taken in any formation that includes Warriors, but really no FAQ is even needed considering it is a unit upgrade rather than a separate unit. Unit upgrades are always allowed unless specifically noted otherwise. The Reborn Warhost does not make this restriction, ergo Trueborn are allowed.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly if someone wanted to use trueborn over fire dragons I will never say no b.c fire dragons are just better in every way, i see no reason to even argue someone wanting to take an over costed weaker unit. lol

Yep, pretty much. The comparision between the 2 is just sad.
110pts for 5 models with 3+ sv and every model have a Melta & Melta bombs and adds +3 total to vehicle damage. And this doesn't even include the 10pt upgrade for an Exarch
OR 120prs for 5 models with 5+sv and only 4 models have 18" assault Dark Lances.

If you really want Trueborn over Dragons, or even Scrouges, be my guest.


-

The cheaper for 3+ save is what really gets me, DE just has worst saves just to have... worst save, I understand that, but at least give us a way to counter low AV and bad saves.... We are suppose to be the weapons specialist/fast Eldar army. We are suppose to be fragile but really scary and able to move/pop up anywhere..... We can basically DS better (But not anymore thanks for Web Assault).

Unit for Unit, Eldar is just better, DE has some Niche units and formations that are good in a way Eldar doesnt get, but Its not Eldar cant ally those in :/

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The cheaper for 3+ save is what really gets me, DE just has worst saves just to have... worst save, I understand that, but at least give us a way to counter low AV and bad saves.... We are suppose to be the weapons specialist/fast Eldar army. We are suppose to be fragile but really scary and able to move/pop up anywhere..... We can basically DS better (But not anymore thanks for Web Assault).

Unit for Unit, Eldar is just better, DE has some Niche units and formations that are good in a way Eldar doesnt get, but Its not Eldar cant ally those in :/

When the current DE codex came out, I was basically like "Wow, what a great supplement to my Eldar codex" as that is basically what it boils down to for me.
The Reborn Host hasn't changed that, but rather reinforced it.

 Galef wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The cheaper for 3+ save is what really gets me, DE just has worst saves just to have... worst save, I understand that, but at least give us a way to counter low AV and bad saves.... We are suppose to be the weapons specialist/fast Eldar army. We are suppose to be fragile but really scary and able to move/pop up anywhere..... We can basically DS better (But not anymore thanks for Web Assault).

Unit for Unit, Eldar is just better, DE has some Niche units and formations that are good in a way Eldar doesnt get, but Its not Eldar cant ally those in :/

When the current DE codex came out, I was basically like "Wow, what a great supplement to my Eldar codex" as that is basically what it boils down to for me.
The Reborn Host hasn't changed that, but rather reinforced it.

Yeah now its the ultimate supplement :/

DE have nicer models than CWE!
I don't own fire dragons because I think they look outdated, and on top of that they're finecast. Scourges or trueborns look an hundred times better imo.

But rulewise, yeah it's pretty bad. Harlequins are the fast, fragile, melee oriented eldars (and their 5+ is actually an invul). Dark eldars should be the shooty/poison version of that.

fresus wrote:
DE have nicer models than CWE!
I don't own fire dragons because I think they look outdated, and on top of that they're finecast. Scourges or trueborns look an hundred times better imo.

But rulewise, yeah it's pretty bad. Harlequins are the fast, fragile, melee oriented eldars (and their 5+ is actually an invul). Dark eldars should be the shooty/poison version of that.

DE shouldnt be Shooty Eldar, They are a raiding band, they should be Eldar Alpha or Beta strike kings, WWP's should be more and cheaper (Look at new Web Assault rules all DE should have this). IDK if you know but DE has more Melee units than Shooting ones. They are meant to Shoot until they can get close enough to melee you.

DE doesnt have Psychic, so they are SUPPOSE to make it up from tactical thinking and better weaponry, they dont do that in either case.