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So! I've recently read up that Chaos Space Marines became somewhat viable recently thanks to Traitor Legions and I must admit - I have been waiting a long time to field a list that won't be laughed at even in friendly games. But here comes the question - what books make it a viable force? I know about the Legions and obviously the 'dex, but I also read about warband rules from... Traitor's Hate? Also the Renegade Knight rules and formations.

I must admit that I'm mostly interested in fielding Black Legion or Word Bearers, but I don't feel too happy about allying in Daemons, I'd rather keep it vanilla CSM (so BL seems more likely) with a possible side of summoning or stuff (not necessarily, tho). I like the idea of fielding chosen as troops, I like terminators. I even was considering the Raptor Talon because of the charging and stuff. Having, say, two units of plasma chosen in a rhino and two units of suicidal melta raptors with five warp talons to mulch something nasty along with... hm... helcult formation and a baleflamer heldrake maybe?


I have a little force of CSM that includes about three sets of Dark Vengeance (don't ask) along with some additional cultists, a Dark Apostle, a termie lord with axe and combi-bolter, two chaos spaw-EUGHRHH, Daemon Prince aaaand a Heldrake, so I'd need to make some purchases anyway, that's not a problem. I mostly play 1000 and 1500 points, although 1850 and 2k aren't off the table here, but I'd rather start small and then go bigger when I want.

So, what is it that I should go for Black Legion? A Renegade Knight is also a possibility.

Currently I am building a Black Legion force, having started with two CSM squads of 10 Marines each, magnetizing all manner of arms and weapons for maximum interchangability. I like how the Codex, coupled with either Traitor Legions and/or Traitor's Hate now offers a bunch of legion specific rules, like you mentioned. As for what book to use, I'd say it depends on preference. Traitor Legions has the very Black Legion specific 'Black Legion Speartip', allowing specific stuff like the psychic Cyclopia Cabal, or The Hounds Of Abaddon. It doesn't, however, include a specific Black Legion Detachment, The Tormented, from the very same book. Traitor's Hate gives up the Black Crusade Detachment, which allows the far more generic Chaos Warband to still use the Black Legion specific rules from Traitor Legions, and include stuff like Veterans of the Legions (Cult troops) and the Favoured of Chaos (yay! Possessed).
Of course, you might not choose to take these detachments and simply use the Black Legions rules and start making battle-forged armies by taking all manner of formations, both generic and Legion specific, anyhow.

Great thing about the Black Legion is that there are hundreds of different warbands within it, many of which hold their own tactical conventions and preferences, so you can literally use any set of rules, paint your models with some slight variation on the black scheme and call it fluffy.

That said, units of Scoring Terminators and Plasma Chosen from the BL formations are not to be sniffed at.

Yeah, it just sounds like a lot of options!

What does make CSM competitive nowadays? Is it better to run the Legion specific formations or, say, Black Crusade Warband along with Legion rules? I really dig the Chosen, so having them scoring is a huge boon for me!

I was also wondering about what character to pick. On one hand a Spineshiver Blade lord on bike with MoN seems like a total melee beast capable of taking a lot of punishment thanks to T6, 4++ and getting boons after each challenge kill.

On the other hand having a Geomortis Lvl 3 psyker sorcerer with the same loadout gives an awful lot of board control and not much lower killiness.

That being said I am not really accustomed to kitting out Chaos characters. For example - I don't really get why Black Mace is so popular (aside from the infantry obliterating capabilities), when there are things like the murder sword, spineshiver or axe of blind fury around, giving you a better chance to take on heroes while the rest of the army takes care of the chaff.

For example - I don't really get why Black Mace is so popular (aside from the infantry obliterating capabilities)

Because this goes on a Daemon Prince for S8 Smashing goodness

murder sword

Usually easy to kite around and it only makes you rather good against One character pre-selected with a more expensive power sword otherwise.

spineshiver

An Alright option admittedly

axe of blind fury around

Requires a MoK which is usually not that popular outside of World Eaters or KDK on a Chaos Lord, and is usually outdone by the Black Mace on a Prince.

What does make CSM competitive nowadays? Is it better to run the Legion specific formations or, say, Black Crusade Warband along with Legion rules? I really dig the Chosen, so having them scoring is a huge boon for me!

Black Legion does pretty well when it comes to formations, alot of those I know run the Black speartip for some amazing Chaos Alpha strikes, but going with Warbands could be fine. Nearly everyone I've seen tries to shove in the Cyclopia Cabal.

The best way to make it competitive is to use CSM models with SM rules I think.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
lots of helpful stuff!

Thanks for the rundown, I guess that's true, although I've seen people pick the mace on bike Lords just as well. What pains me dearly is the AP4 that severely hinders me in combat against even stuff like the SM Chaplains, that's why I am mostly considering Spineshiver. Then again I can see the idea behind instant deathing someone with the sheer amount of attacks, possibly triggering the toughness test with the mace no matter who swings it. Oh well, will try both!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Black Legion does pretty well when it comes to formations, alot of those I know run the Black speartip for some amazing Chaos Alpha strikes, but going with Warbands could be fine. Nearly everyone I've seen tries to shove in the Cyclopia Cabal.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to flex myself a bit trying to fit the requirements for some formations at 1000 points, but at 1500 and 1850 it should work better. The Cyclopia one sounds really fun, forcing things like devastators or rapier batteries to fire upon opponent's own vehicles or tough units. Do they need line of sight to pick the target for that Cabal power?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

For exampl - I don't really get why Black Mace is so popular (aside from the infantry obliterating capabilities)

Because this goes on a Daemon Prince for S8 Smashing goodness

Is it +2 strength as well as flesh bane then?

I made a Black Legion specific tactica thread a while ago. Might give you some ideas, it didn't get very far mind you. Neither of the legion specific threads did.

As for what books you need? IA:13 from forgeworld is less needed now, but still a good book to have (if you can get it). Otherwise you just need legions and the base dex. Well, maybe traitor's hate if you 're not using FW.
A BL Black Crusade detachment (the traitor's hate decurion) and a BL CAD are pretty similar. The only thing you get, really, is the free boon roll since you hate everybody by default and our Termies and chosen are ObSec in a CAD too.

If you want ObSec either works. The CAD is pretty much mandatory for FW while being more customizable and potentially cheaper, while the Crusade has ObSec bikers and a free boon.
Alternatively you could just take the warband on it's own, since loosing that free boon isn't a big deal. You're really only interested in getting ObSec.
In that case you only need traitor Legions since the Traitor's Hate formations are reprinted in Legions.
In other words you only need legions and the dex, unless you specifically want a renegade knight. FW has free pdfs for actual csm knights which aren't bad either. I wouldn't say you need either knight though.

So Black Legion pretty much boils down to whether you want to use the T1 deepstrike, have ObSec or bring FW.
I like my forgeworld units and the flexibilty of a CAD so I'd stick to that. The speartip enables some interesting tactics, but you're taking a gamble. Plus I still haven't quite warmed up to the large formations.
So as far as I'm concerned, unless it's for a fun game, I'd stick to a CAD with a pinch of formations as necessary, like the cabal.

If you plan on bringing a TAF or Raptor talon though I'd really consider the speartip. T1 can be a great help for both by virtue of possibly hitting stuff before they can activate buffs, fly etc and crusader helps the TAF move after firing.
Although it's not bad even just for mitigating reserve rolls, doubly so if you manage to squeeze in a comms relay or so. And both formations are pretty good already.

Oh and for the black mace, a daemon prince makes it AP2, that's why it suddenly becomes awesome. S8 is the delicous frosting on the cake as that elevates it into Instant Death territory for most units, plus the prince can now take on vehicles pretty reliably. Nobody uses the mace on anything but a prince because of the otherwise AP 4. And if you're fishing for iron arm then you may as well stick to the force maul.

**edit**- actually nvm the S8 part That's whishful thinking... I got carried away by ZebioLizard2 XD. It doesn't give +2 strength, but it's still amazing. Although you can still get S8 by other means as a prince.

 Intercessor wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

For exampl - I don't really get why Black Mace is so popular (aside from the infantry obliterating capabilities)

Because this goes on a Daemon Prince for S8 Smashing goodness

Is it +2 strength as well as flesh bane then?

I.. thought it had it, I haven't used a DP or the Black Mace in a while and I may be thinking wrong.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

For exampl - I don't really get why Black Mace is so popular (aside from the infantry obliterating capabilities)

Because this goes on a Daemon Prince for S8 Smashing goodness

Is it +2 strength as well as flesh bane then?

I.. thought it had it, I haven't used a DP or the Black Mace in a while and I may be thinking wrong.

It's doesn't. It's Str = User, but yes it has fleshbane. Although you managed to fool me into thinking it it had, so grats I always think of it as a better power maul too, but it is its own thing.