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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/03 22:13:54
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes, you are correct. It was redleger who said it, and then you showed me your insurance card (which has something similar printed on it). Please accept my deepest apologies for the error.
It took me a while to find the topic, but this is the page if you want a recap (I think I even gave you an exalt) https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/694968.page
The Media DOES highlight the edge cases, and they DO confirm bias against these types of laws.
Not sure what about that you find inaccurate.
Yes perhaps I misspoke, as I have no reference for how often the defence is successful. The point I was trying to make was more about the message that is being sent out, and what people are being lead to believe is acceptable. Don't you find it at least a little bit odd that you have an insurance card which tells you what to say after an incident, even though that may not be anything close to the truth (hypothetically).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/04 05:54:32
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Looks like the hearing is wrapped up, judge will have an order written up by next Friday no later than 3:00.
Defence's closing statements were basically witness contamination and Oulson being a big terrifying 6'4 205lb person coming over the chairs to bash him up.
The state on the other hand reiterates several witness comments that make it hard to believe Reeves was scared or had good reason to be scared and is pushing home the "retaliation" rather than "self defence" angle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/04 14:24:21
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Smacks wrote: CptJake wrote: Smacks wrote:One thing that bothers me about many of these cases, is what I consider exploitation of the legal system. It seems like, so long as a shooters says: "I was frightened for my life", they have a good chance of getting away with it, regardless of the circumstances
It 'seems' that way because that is the story the press gives you and it conforms to your internal bias.
The reality is 'self defense' is a VERY difficult defense to win with if you go to trial. I think you'll find most folks plea out or lose their case unless it is pretty damned rock solid. If you go with self defense you must admit to the crime (I did shoot him BUT) so it is really risky. Unless very clear cut most lawyers advise against it.
I don't think it's anything to do with the media, or any bias. It probably has more to do with the fact that YOU (in another topic), said that you tutored your men to rehearse that exact phrase, in case they shot someone. Then when we listened to the interview with the shooter in this incident (an former cop), he's spinning the same old yarn, even though the witness statements paint a much darker picture.
Ive been on duty the last 36 hours so I missed last 2 pages, so I will only reply to this one thing. You are referring to me. And the meaning of this has been spun so out of control. If someone makes a bad call, its a bad call. But the initial reaction to freeze in a combat zone and get your friends and team mates killed is a very very different situation than the one we are discussing here. I taught them to use that phrase in their head as a lot of the new privates were anxious, scared, and worred about what happens after a fire fight when propaganda kicks in and there is an investigation because some woman is claiming we killed some dude in cold blood when in reality he was planting IEDs and trying to ambush us. The two are not even close to the same thing. The man in this situation did not hesitate when he should have, where as there should be no hesitation in the scenario I described in the other thread which you now seem to be intent on spinning differently.
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10k CSM
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2k Death Guard
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/04 14:43:54
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Smacks wrote: Don't you find it at least a little bit odd that you have an insurance card which tells you what to say after an incident, even though that may not be anything close to the truth (hypothetically). No, because the advice every competent lawyer gives their clients regardless of the alleged crime (even in non-violence/non-gun crimes) is DON'T say anything to the police and never consent to a search. And the card tells the client exactly that. "First call 911. After the police arrive, only say the following: Explain: This man tried to kill me Complaint: I am willing to sign a complaint Evidence: There is his weapon Witnesses: Those people saw the attack Silence: Officer, I will cooperate 100% but first I need to speak with my attorney" The card is meant to be handed to the cops. It is exactly because 'self defense' cases are so difficult that insurance like this exists. It gives access to lawyers who specialize in this type of defense and who are familiar with gun laws in your area. You buy the insurance not because you want to need it, but because Lord forbid you do find yourself in the position it helps your family not go bankrupt and may give you access to assets which keep you out of prison. The specific company I use, USCCA, offers training packages including threat de-escalation, when to shoot/when not to shoot, local laws, as well as gun safety, home security, identifying and avoiding threats and so on. It isn't like they are all about "Hey, go kill folks and we'll help you stay out of jail!". They very much promote SAFE gun ownership and RESPONSIBLE actions.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/04 14:44:44
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/05 02:52:52
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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CptJake wrote: Smacks wrote:
Don't you find it at least a little bit odd that you have an insurance card which tells you what to say after an incident, even though that may not be anything close to the truth (hypothetically).
No, because the advice every competent lawyer gives their clients regardless of the alleged crime (even in non-violence/non-gun crimes) is DON'T say anything to the police and never consent to a search. And the card tells the client exactly that.
"First call 911. After the police arrive, only say the following:
Explain: This man tried to kill me
Complaint: I am willing to sign a complaint
Evidence: There is his weapon
Witnesses: Those people saw the attack
Silence: Officer, I will cooperate 100% but first I need to speak with my attorney"
The card is meant to be handed to the cops.
It is exactly because 'self defense' cases are so difficult that insurance like this exists. It gives access to lawyers who specialize in this type of defense and who are familiar with gun laws in your area. You buy the insurance not because you want to need it, but because Lord forbid you do find yourself in the position it helps your family not go bankrupt and may give you access to assets which keep you out of prison.
The specific company I use, USCCA, offers training packages including threat de-escalation, when to shoot/when not to shoot, local laws, as well as gun safety, home security, identifying and avoiding threats and so on. It isn't like they are all about "Hey, go kill folks and we'll help you stay out of jail!". They very much promote SAFE gun ownership and RESPONSIBLE actions.
This is spot on. Just because you have car insurance does not mean you are looking to go get in a wreck, in fact I would say no one(yes there may be exceptions) is looking to just go out and get in a wreck because they like the way broken glass and bodies look on the asphalt. Just typing that seemed absurd. In our country you can have a gun, Understanding that there are legal issues if you have to use this weapon/tool is also responsible. Would make sense to not defend your family from death or harm just to go to jail and leave them without income/father/husband.
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10k CSM
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 10:17:21
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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redleger wrote:Just because you have car insurance does not mean you are looking to go get in a wreck ... Just typing that seemed absurd.
Well that is absurd, but, respectfully, strawmen arguments tend to be absurd by design. To clarify, absolutely no one (especially not me), was arguing that "owning insurance: implies intent". That is not what is being discussed. If you genuinely thought that point was being argued, then I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding is all it ever was. What I'm actually saying is that laws are an extension of our values. They provide a framework for the behaviour that we (as a society) expect from individuals. Because we have quite severe firearm restrictions in the UK, there exists a misconception (in the US) that people in the UK are not allowed to defend themselves. It may interest you to know that this is patently untrue. In the UK, you absolutely do have the right to shoot and kill someone in self defence. However, it had better be your last and only resort. If it can be shown that you had a "reasonable" opportunity to retreat, or otherwise avoid killing someone, then you could end up in a lot of trouble. Our values dictate that taking a life is a very serious matter, and should only ever be "considered" as a last resort. Those values are reflected in our laws. To the extent that you can't even own a gun for the purpose of "self defence", because there is a belief that allowing people such a weapon, will simply encourage them to overlook other options, such as retreating, or securing their property etc... (there are about a million things you can reasonably do before you have cause to shoot someone). The crazy thing is, in the USA, you have the exact same values. You believe that taking a life is serious, and should only be done as a last resort. However, your laws and your politics don't really reflect that. Some states have removed the duty to retreat, and there is a constant rhetoric that you need a gun to defend your family, continual fearmongering, and people being instructed to shoot twice at centre mass etc... And yes, while I agree that "in the worst case" that may all be necessary, I believe that the whole "in the worst case" and "last resort" part of the message is being drowned out. You show me a man who opened fire in a cinema for no good reason, and I'll show you a society that, collectivity, encouraged that kind of behaviour (albeit inadvertently).
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 10:39:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 11:24:43
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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You show me a man who opened fire in a cinema for no good reason, and I'll show you a society that, collectivity, encouraged that kind of behaviour (albeit inadvertently).
Thats an incredibly asinine statement.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 11:25:59
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 11:44:13
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Not just asinine, but incredibly asinine? Oh my!
If you have something to add to the conversation, then please do so politely, and perhaps provide reasons, rather than rolling up, and posting abusive unfalsifiable spam.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 12:11:25
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Smacks wrote:Not just asinine, but incredibly asinine? Oh my!
If you have something to add to the conversation, then please do so politely, and perhaps provide reasons, rather than rolling up, and posting abusive unfalsifiable spam.
Your statement said the movie theater shooter was because of US culture. The urge to respond with a nice F you right back is strong.
I guess British culture created the thousand or so children who were molested there by one group. But see, that would be a stupid comment, just like yours.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 12:26:05
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Smacks wrote: Because we have quite severe firearm restrictions in the UK, there exists a misconception (in the US) that people in the UK are not allowed to defend themselves. It may interest you to know that this is patently untrue. In the UK, you absolutely do have the right to shoot and kill someone in self defence. However, it had better be your last and only resort. If it can be shown that you had a "reasonable" opportunity to retreat, or otherwise avoid killing someone, then you could end up in a lot of trouble. Our values dictate that taking a life is a very serious matter, and should only ever be "considered" as a last resort. Those values are reflected in our laws. To the extent that you can't even own a gun for the purpose of "self defence", because there is a belief that allowing people such a weapon, will simply encourage them to overlook other options, such as retreating, or securing their property etc... (there are about a million things you can reasonably do before you have cause to shoot someone). You absolutely do NOT have the right to shoot and kill in self defense, because your gov't makes it damned hard to legally own the tool required to shoot someone, let alone carry that tool around so that it is with you when/where you mat need it. Hell, you then go and state the part I highlight in orange. Not allowed to have the tool? Then the right does not exist for the vast majority of the people under the gov't control. We had (may still have) some states/municipalities which require a person to retreat. feth that. That is stating via the law that the individual does not have the right to defend themselves except under VERY narrow parameters determined by the gov't after the fact. That isn't much of a right, and the gov't can shrink the parameters at their will, as your gov't has done.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 12:26:57
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 12:31:27
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Confessor Of Sins
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A big part of the problem is most certainly that it's mostly cases like these that get media coverage, and getting any sort of statistical information on a huge country divided into states is incredibly hard because some states don't even collect the necessary information.
How many responsible gun owners manage to handle it without pulling their gun, or pulling it and not shooting, for every idiot who decides to shoot first?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 13:37:35
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Courageous Grand Master
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As it has been said before, it's important for non-Brit dakka members to realise that self-defence is obviously permitted in Britain, and that you have the right to defend your home from invasion/burgulary etc etc
We tend to assess each case individually, rather than have a blanket law for every instance of self-defence.
So, if people break into your house at 3am, and you feel threatened, as you would, and you smack them with a cricket bat or whatever, a jury would in all likelihood clear you, because you're not expected to act rationally and do a risk assessment in the heat of the moment!
If you chase them away, pursue them for miles, and then beat the gak out of them, that's different
similarly, if you whack somebody with a cricket bat in self-defence, thus incapacitating them, but then continue to whack them as they lay on the ground, and witnesses say the threat was over, the judge may not be impressed, as the threat could be deemed to be over.
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Automatically Appended Next Post: This what the Lord Chief Justice said a few years back:
"He said: "I suspect if any of you have come home to find a burglar in your home, or have been in bed at night -- or indeed having an afternoon snooze and found a burglar in your home - you are not calmly detached. You are probably very cross and you are probably very frightened - a mixture of both -and your judgment of precisely what you should or should not do in the circumstances cannot, as another predecessor of mine, Lord Lane, said, you cannot measure it in a jeweller's scale. You have to face the reality of how people are and how people react to these situations - and justifiably react.
"The householder is entitled to use reasonable force to get rid of the burglar and that in measuring whether the force is reasonable or not, you are not doing a paper exercise six months later. You have to put yourself in the position of the man or woman who has reacted to the presence of a burglar and has reacted with fury, with anxiety, with fear, and with all the various different emotions which will be generated, and who has no time for calm reflection."
Americans may think Britain is some kind of Commie, Beatnik, hippy free for all, but we do have self-defence laws in this nation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 13:42:37
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 13:43:30
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As it has been said before, it's important for non-Brit dakka members to realise that self-defence is obviously permitted in Britain, and that you have the right to defend your home from invasion/burgulary etc etc
,
Actually we took our self defense laws generally from the British. The only major difference comes in the duty to retreat or not.
I do not know what the duty is in Britain, but I am pretty sure grandma does not have a duty to retreat there either.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 13:46:59
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Courageous Grand Master
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Frazzled wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As it has been said before, it's important for non-Brit dakka members to realise that self-defence is obviously permitted in Britain, and that you have the right to defend your home from invasion/burgulary etc etc
,
Actually we took our self defense laws generally from the British. The only major difference comes in the duty to retreat or not.
I do not know what the duty is in Britain, but I am pretty sure grandma does not have a duty to retreat there either.
Frazz, our British grandmas felt no need to retreat from Hitler and his henchmen, they're used to blood, sweat, and tears, so I doubt if they'll be fazed by some petty criminal in this day and age.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 13:50:53
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Frazzled wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As it has been said before, it's important for non-Brit dakka members to realise that self-defence is obviously permitted in Britain, and that you have the right to defend your home from invasion/burgulary etc etc
,
Actually we took our self defense laws generally from the British. The only major difference comes in the duty to retreat or not.
I do not know what the duty is in Britain, but I am pretty sure grandma does not have a duty to retreat there either.
Frazz, our British grandmas felt no need to retreat from Hitler and his henchmen, they're used to blood, sweat, and tears, so I doubt if they'll be fazed by some petty criminal in this day and age.
Exactly. Now Florida has some specific statutes on the subject permit hearings and such that are actually quite different IIRC then other states, which are more in the format you are used to.
But for women and grandma the "duty to retreat" is generally irrelevant either in the US or UK. The law is the same, just the method of defense is different.
In the US, Grandma Frazzled uses her trusty double barreled shotgun. In England, she uses her trusty double barreled shotgun. in Scotland she uses her trusty double barreled Claymore. Moral of the story...don't  with grandma.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 13:51:41
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:I guess British culture created the thousand or so children who were molested there by one group. But see, that would be a stupid comment, just like yours.
Contrary to the point you were trying to make, it's not stupid at all (and neither was my point). There have been cultural failings in the UK which have allowed child abusers to go unchecked for many years. This isn't a uniquely British problem, you might also remember it happened within the Catholic church, because there was a culture of denial and covering up, In any case, I have seen nothing to suggest that Britain has a significantly larger incidence of child abuse that the US (in fact I believe it might be lower). On the other had the US has a significantly larger problem with gun crime and gun violence than the UK. So maybe you're right that your comment was stupid, but ironically because of the difference, rather than its similarity to mine. If you don't think culture plays a part in how people behave then you might need to look up the definition of culture, because that's pretty much all it is. In America you have a strong gun culture. Owning a gun is made to sound almost patriotic: "defend your country from tyranny". People are encouraged to carry a gun with them at all times. Then when something bad happens involving a gun (which is all the time), you say "well it was just that one guy", but really it's not. Claiming that America's gun problems are the result of a tiny minority of bad people, is like claiming traffic accidents are all caused by maniac drivers. The truth is, most crashes involve normal "mostly safe" drivers, who make a mistake. It might be so rare for them that it only happens once in a lifetime, but all those "uncommon" mistakes add up to thousands per day nationally. CptJake wrote:You absolutely do NOT have the right to shoot and kill in self defense, because your gov't makes it damned hard to legally own the tool required to shoot someone,
It's really not that hard to get a gun here, all you really need to do is show that you want it for a legitimate reason, rather than to commit a crime. let alone carry that tool around so that it is with you when/where you mat need it. Hell, you then go and state the part I highlight in orange. Not allowed to have the tool? Then the right does not exist for the vast majority of the people under the gov't control.
In the UK, there is no restriction on what you may use to defend yourself, just as there is no restriction on what people use to commit a crime. The only restriction is (as you have identified) availability, but this lack of availability affects criminals as well. Gun crime is extremely uncommon in the UK, so carrying a gun around with you at all times "just in case" would probably pose a greater threat to you and the general public than armed criminals do. CptJake wrote:We had (may still have) some states/municipalities which require a person to retreat. feth that. That is stating via the law that the individual does not have the right to defend themselves except under VERY narrow parameters determined by the gov't after the fact. That isn't much of a right, and the gov't can shrink the parameters at their will, as your gov't has done.
Generally speaking, you have the right defend yourself and others, and providing that's all you do you shouldn't have any problem. What you can't do is beat the hell out of someone because they broke into your house, or behave in a vindictive manner.
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This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 14:21:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 14:02:36
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Please remind me where in your bull gak post any of that has anything to do with the right of self defense.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 14:10:47
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:Please remind me where in your bull gak post any of that has anything to do with the right of self defense.
Why do you always feel the need to be so rude? I was responding directly to something you said to me. You didn't say anything about self defence, you were talking about American culture, me fething off, and British people being paedophiles. What does any of that have to do with self defence?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 14:24:12
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I wish the laws in the US had that violence as a means of self defense could only be used as a last resort, and only as much violence as needed to stop the situation.
Unfortunately, as Smacks mentions, there's a culture encouraged by the gun lobby that it's okay to use violence as a first resort to solve problems...That backing off, de-escalating, and running away shouldn't be used.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 14:36:36
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Smacks wrote: Frazzled wrote:Please remind me where in your bull gak post any of that has anything to do with the right of self defense.
Why do you always feel the need to be so rude? I was responding directly to something you said to me. You didn't say anything about self defence, you were talking about American culture, me fething off, and British people being paedophiles. What does any of that have to do with self defence? You started it by your own post. Automatically Appended Next Post: skyth wrote:I wish the laws in the US had that violence as a means of self defense could only be used as a last resort, and only as much violence as needed to stop the situation. Unfortunately, as Smacks mentions, there's a culture encouraged by the gun lobby that it's okay to use violence as a first resort to solve problems...That backing off, de-escalating, and running away shouldn't be used. Please show me where "the gun lobby" has done anything of the sort. Please also define who "the gun lobby" is. If you're saying its the NRA, please show me where the NRA has supported your statements and remember, libel and slander laws extend to the internet. Also how is grandma going to run away? Should a mother have to run away in your view? How about a 20 year old co-ed? How about grandpa? How about a guy in a wheel chair?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 14:52:01
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:19:52
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The gun lobby is responsible for these bs stand your ground laws.
And Frazz, unsurprisingly, spouts more inane blathering that totally ignores the point I was making in a Trumpian attempt to obfuscate things. I'm not going to give a response to your strawman and dishonest argumemt. If you want to act like an adult and have an honest discussion, I'm all for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:30:12
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I did not start nor am I continuing anything. My post (before you turned up here calling me asinine) was all about self defence, and differing attitudes towards it between two developed nations, and how those attitudes might be shaped by cultural factors, such as laws, media, and politics. Which they absolutely are.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 15:31:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:30:17
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Smacks wrote: Frazzled wrote:I guess British culture created the thousand or so children who were molested there by one group. But see, that would be a stupid comment, just like yours.
Contrary to the point you were trying to make, it's not stupid at all (and neither was my point). There have been cultural failings in the UK which have allowed child abusers to go unchecked for many years. This isn't a uniquely British problem, you might also remember it happened within the Catholic church, because there was a culture of denial and covering up,
In any case, I have seen nothing to suggest that Britain has a significantly larger incidence of child abuse that the US (in fact I believe it might be lower). On the other had the US has a significantly larger problem with gun crime and gun violence than the UK.
The US has a significantly larger *violence* issue, even with firearms entirely removed. If you removed every gun and gun death from the US, the US still has more deaths from violence on a per capita basis than other developed nations. Gun crime and violence is symptomatic of deeper issues, focusing on just the guns ignores the more fundamental reality that there's just more violence here in general, that tends to be heavily concentrated in certain areas (though not always just in "urban" problem centers either).
If you don't think culture plays a part in how people behave then you might need to look up the definition of culture, because that's pretty much all it is. In America you have a strong gun culture. Owning a gun is made to sound almost patriotic: "defend your country from tyranny". People are encouraged to carry a gun with them at all times. Then when something bad happens involving a gun (which is all the time), you say "well it was just that one guy", but really it's not.
Claiming that America's gun problems are the result of a tiny minority of bad people, is like claiming traffic accidents are all caused by maniac drivers. The truth is, most crashes involve normal "mostly safe" drivers, who make a mistake. It might be so rare for them that it only happens once in a lifetime, but all those "uncommon" mistakes add up to thousands per day nationally.
If we were talking about accidents and negligence, sure. When talking about criminal misuse, that's a much different issue altogether. Deaths and injuries from firearm accidents are extremely rare, with several hundred million firearms in the US, the numbers of people killed in firearms accidents is fewer than die slipping and falling in the bathroom every year.
Yes the US has a much different culture around firearms. Yes there's a lot more deaths due to firearms. We also have far more deaths from non-firearms violence per capita than the UK has from all violence including firearms.
It's really not that hard to get a gun here, all you really need to do is show that you want it for a legitimate reason, rather than to commit a crime.
"Legitimate reason" has very different cultural meanings between the US and the UK (and, legally speaking, self defense is not a valid reason to own a gun in the UK even if it's just for personal home protection), and in the UK it's a much more intensive process that can be denied for pretty much any reason the police feel like. Likewise, having to get character references from people who've known you for years, get doctors clearance, have to get permission for *each* firearm, renew that license routinely, and (invasive by US standards) home inspections by police. Handguns cannot be owned at all except in NI, and other types of firearms are heavily restricted in terms of function and operation. Also the police can attach additional restrictions to your license if they feel like it. That's far from "really not that hard to get a gun". It's *possible* to get a gun, but it's an involved and dedicated process that can be quite difficult.
Generally speaking, you have the right defend yourself and others
The issue is, in the UK, at least as far as I understand it, you cannot maintain any device specifically for that purpose, else it becomes an "offensive weapon", use of a tool for self defense must be incidental, not kept specifically for such a purpose.
and providing that's all you do you shouldn't have any problem. What you can't do is beat the hell out of someone because they broke into your house, or behave in a vindictive manner.
You can't in the US either, unless in self defense, however it's generally assumed that in the US, if someone is in your home unknown unannounced and uninvited, that a self defense situation exists by default, but you can't shoot someone in the back while running away or continue to inflict harm after a threat has ended. Doing these things can and does get people arrested and convicted routinely.
EDIT: everyone, lets cool off a bit here lest we get the lock.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/07 15:36:20
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:31:57
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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I remember throughout my entire concealed carry course that the instructor emphasised de-escelation and that the firearm was the last resort.
Maybe that was an exception to the norm?
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"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:42:54
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nostromodamus wrote:I remember throughout my entire concealed carry course that the instructor emphasised de-escelation and that the firearm was the last resort.
Maybe that was an exception to the norm?
Probably varies by instructor/state (I don't think all states require instruction to get a cc permit either. Might be wrong there).
But the laws and culture don't support de-escalation/violence as a last resort.
Just look at all the people in this thread defending the man who shot someone over popcorn after escallating the situation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 15:53:48
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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skyth wrote:I wish the laws in the US had that violence as a means of self defense could only be used as a last resort, and only as much violence as needed to stop the situation.
Unfortunately, as Smacks mentions, there's a culture encouraged by the gun lobby that it's okay to use violence as a first resort to solve problems...That backing off, de-escalating, and running away shouldn't be used.
We do have those laws. Is there a specific state that you believe doesn't have those laws? In no state can you instigate a conflict and then claim self defense. In no state can you ignore the escalation of force and respond with lethal force without facing an imminent threat of lethal force. SYG laws don't prohibit anyone from running away and don't encourage anyone not to run away, they just indemnify the individual from any legal responsibility to run away. You as the victim of an assault don't have any legal responsibility to avoid the assault, your attacker has the legal responsibility to not assault you in the first place. Nobody should be punished for not being able or willing to run away from a criminal attack on their person. Automatically Appended Next Post: skyth wrote: Nostromodamus wrote:I remember throughout my entire concealed carry course that the instructor emphasised de-escelation and that the firearm was the last resort.
Maybe that was an exception to the norm?
Probably varies by instructor/state (I don't think all states require instruction to get a cc permit either. Might be wrong there).
But the laws and culture don't support de-escalation/violence as a last resort.
Just look at all the people in this thread defending the man who shot someone over popcorn after escallating the situation.
Many states are shall issue states which require individuals to be state residents and pass a background check, some require a training course of a few hours in length, many do not. There are also 12 states that are unrestricted states that allow any state resident that can legally possess firearms to carry a firearm concealed, no permit necessary. Most states' carry laws are very old and predate the existence of the NRA or the "gun lobby." Vermont, for example, is an unrestricted state that doesn't require residents to obtain a concealed carry permit because concealed carry without a permit has been legal in Vermont since the state was created.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 16:02:29
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 16:10:46
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Courageous Grand Master
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The issue is, in the UK, at least as far as I understand it, you cannot maintain any device specifically for that purpose, else it becomes an "offensive weapon", use of a tool for self defense must be incidental, not kept specifically for such a purpose.
It's a reasonable point Vaktathi, but if I just so happen to have a fence post sitting by my bedside, there's not a lot the law can do if said fence post is used to repel intruders at 3am
Honestly, Constable, I brought the fence post in for a repair job earlier, but left it in my bedroom by mistake and forgot all about it. Luckily for me, it was there when I needed it...
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 16:28:55
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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Vaktathi wrote: Smacks wrote: Frazzled wrote:
Generally speaking, you have the right defend yourself and others
The issue is, in the UK, at least as far as I understand it, you cannot maintain any device specifically for that purpose, else it becomes an "offensive weapon", use of a tool for self defense must be incidental, not kept specifically for such a purpose.
You can get a shotgun easily enough, though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 16:29:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 16:55:20
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The issue is, in the UK, at least as far as I understand it, you cannot maintain any device specifically for that purpose, else it becomes an "offensive weapon", use of a tool for self defense must be incidental, not kept specifically for such a purpose. It's a reasonable point Vaktathi, but if I just so happen to have a fence post sitting by my bedside, there's not a lot the law can do if said fence post is used to repel intruders at 3am Honestly, Constable, I brought the fence post in for a repair job earlier, but left it in my bedroom by mistake and forgot all about it. Luckily for me, it was there when I needed it... You guys must have some wimpy fence posts. I use 6-8 inch diameter 8ft long posts for my fences, with 6ft steel T-posts in between. No way I'm storing one of those by the bed let alone swinging one around. Hell, just lifting the wood posts to set them in the hole sucks, and the steel T-posts get really heavy really quick too. (Son2 and myself putting up a pasture fence a couple summers ago, wood posts sunk in 3 feet and held with 60 pounds of quickcrete.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/07 16:56:05
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/07 17:12:25
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:Also how is grandma going to run away? Should a mother have to run away in your view? How about a 20 year old co-ed? How about grandpa? How about a guy in a wheel chair?
A duty to retreat doesn't mean you're legally forced to try and run away. It just means that you took reasonable measures to avoid the conflict, rather than seek it (and it doesn't usually apply in your own home). Obviously, if you are unable to retreat because of age or disability, or if retreating might be dangerous, then there is absolutely no obligation to do so. While the subject of SYG has become heavily politicized, it is rarely meaningful.
The UK actually has no formal duty to retreat, but it can be helpful to a self defence case if you can show that you tried to avoid the conflict. That is also likely to be true in SYG states.
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