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Dude, the shootiest of the shootiest Chapter Masters don't go above BS6. A normal human simply won't have that kinda training no matter your justification.

You mention being specialised - Sternguard Veterans, the ranged specialists of a Space Marine chapter have no actual bonus over a normal Scout.

A Captain is never made out to be dedicated to melee combat - they are dedicated LEADERS. They train with every weapon, and have trained with every weapon, because they've passed through every rank to do it, spending decades as an assault marine, devastator, tactical etc etc.

It just so happens that in 40k leadership means you're good at smashing things in melee combat.

I'm sorry, but I disagree that specialisation makes a human as good as a master of Space Marine marksmanship.

I'm happy to see you've changed it.


Onto the rest of it: I can't really make comment without a list of equipment and what it does. The mirror cloak and shock sword, for example.

In many entries, you make reference to "you must buy *squad leader* for X points". Why is this an option? Why not just give the unit a flat starting cost, and list the unit composition as " 4 *regular Scions* (Unit Type) and 1 *Scion Leader* (Unit Type (Character))

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In many entries, you make reference to "you must buy *squad leader* for X points". Why is this an option?

I had that comment on another of my Fandex (the Grotvolution Gretchin one). It's purely for layout convenience. I am seriously considering to rename the section upgrade instead of option because of this. I thought it would be simpler to have all the extra you can buy for a squad or character in the same place, including the mandatory one.

As for your question, I will attack officialy the gear section today and tomorrow, but as a sneak peek for you, the mirror cloak is granting the special rule stealth (or conceal if the unit already has stealth) as it mirror surrounding environment. The Shock Sword is a weapon with a powerfield that's design to stun in addition to cut. It gives the weilder a close combat weapon with bonus of +2 in strength and an AP of 6. The power shield gives a 5+ invulnerable save and count as an extra close combat weapon, auspex reduce the scatterdistance when you deep strike by 1d6.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In many entries, you make reference to "you must buy *squad leader* for X points". Why is this an option?

I had that comment on another of my Fandex (the Grotvolution Gretchin one). It's purely for layout convenience. I am seriously considering to rename the section upgrade instead of option because of this. I thought it would be simpler to have all the extra you can buy for a squad or character in the same place, including the mandatory one.

As for your question, I will attack officialy the gear section today and tomorrow, but as a sneak peek for you, the mirror cloak is granting the special rule stealth (or conceal if the unit already has stealth) as it mirror surrounding environment. The Shock Sword is a weapon with a powerfield that's design to stun in addition to cut. It gives the weilder a close combat weapon with bonus of +2 in strength and an AP of 6. The power shield gives a 5+ invulnerable save and count as an extra close combat weapon, auspex reduce the scatterdistance when you deep strike by 1d6.

Mirror Cloak: So, it's a camocloak? Those grant +1 cover save.
Shock sword: I would have thought it'd be something like a concussive power sword.
Power shield: Why does it count as a CCW? No other shields in the game do that.
Auspex: Normally scanner thingymebobs are carried by a unit on the ground, and negate scatter for a unit deep striking within X inches (normally 6). The fluff for deep striking Tempestus is that they're doing a HALO jump right? If you want it to have that effect why not call it 'vectored grav chutes' or something.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Mirror Cloak: So, it's a camocloak? Those grant +1 cover save.
Shock sword: I would have thought it'd be something like a concussive power sword.
Power shield: Why does it count as a CCW? No other shields in the game do that.
Auspex: Normally scanner thingymebobs are carried by a unit on the ground, and negate scatter for a unit deep striking within X inches (normally 6). The fluff for deep striking Tempestus is that they're doing a HALO jump right? If you want it to have that effect why not call it 'vectored grav chutes' or something.

A Mirror Cloak is indeed a fancy camocloak. I changed the name because I wasn't exactly certain of the correct spelling of camocloak and because I simply thought that Mirror Cloak sounded better. What do you think?

Shock Swords could have concussion as special rule, but they would need to have a lower strength bonus in that case as to not make them obviously superior to power swords.

Combat Shield do count as extra close combat weapon or at least did. Shields can be used offensively in certain circomstances.

For the Auspex, I assumed that it wasn't a specific item, but a category of item. In other terms there is auspex for all sorts of things. Some are detectors, others are interactive maps, while other are sensors and alarm system. I guess I could call them Vectored Auspex or somthing like that to avoid confusion, or indeed go for something else entirely.

Eh you don't really need to remove the Str bonus if you give the Swords Concussive if you keep the AP6. S +2 AP 6 Concussive would make them a worse power maul.

Combat Shields haven't counted as an additional weapon in years. All they do now is give a 6++

Also Auspex are an existing piece of wargear that currently decrease cover by 1, so a new name to avoid confusion would be advisable. Though I don't think it should be '___ Auspex', if only because fluffwise the varying patterns of Auspex detect motion, invisible gasses and energy emissions.

An auspex device would fit though if you wanted a way to give the Scions a Deep Strike protection ability similar to the Drop Pod (i.e. reducing scatter if you'd land on a unit or impassable terrain).

Mirror cloak doesn't really need a name change, as long as there is a good fluff justification for why Mirror Cloaks and Camo Cloaks are separate items, even if in-game they have similar effects.

The codex has augury arrays that reduce scatter

 Bobthehero wrote:
The codex has augury arrays that reduce scatter

It's a tank upgrade, but not on individuals if I am not mistaken. It's also used a bit differently. The name has been changed to Aer Guidance System.

The Augury Arrays will have a new function, I am thinking about an overwatch bonus right now. The sensor system helps Scions anticipate attacks against their position.

The Shield will no more grant a bonus attack, but their special formation will.

NOTA BENE: The Fandex is now complete for the Special Rule section, the detachment, the equipment section (but not the artefact and the vehicule upgrades), the HQ, the Elites, the Troops and the Dedicated Transport section. Thanks for the participation.

Mirror cloak sounds lik something you'd wear to shoot guardsmen with their own rifles honestly. If camo cloak isn't fancy enough for you (it's good enough for the astartes...) maybe you could ude cameoline (google the spelling) cloak or something.

Auspex seems the generic scanner upgrade. I personally don't see how the unit itself holding a scanner would reduce it's scatter, normally a unit has to guide them down from the ground.
If you to reduce the units own scatter I suggest either a formation or upgrade granting something like 'vectored grav-chutes' either reducing scatter or giving it similar to the Drop Pods thing.

It does seem like you want theae Tempestus to have flashier gear than a Taus chromed nether regions, I think you should reign that in.
Model them after special forces, they get all the best gear but aren't James Bond.'

So giving them things like Auspex (-1 to enemy cover save) is fine because those already exist, giving them Augary arrays (+1 overwatch) or hipster camocloaks is a bit much.

I think you should just have Camo-cloaks for +1 Cover Save, and let it stack with Stealth.

Just call it a camo-cloak, and leave it at that. No need to invent something that already exists.

Additionally, I'd suggest making a difference between the power shield and the refractor field. At the current moment, they give exactly the same benefit. I would suggest bumping the power shield up to a 4++, but they can never have a bonus for two CCWs in combat if they choose to use it. So they can gain extra attack power if they want it, but against other targets, they may want to use their shields. That brings it in line more with things like storm shields, differentiates it to the refractor field, and gives the player tactical choice.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Additionally, I'd suggest making a difference between the power shield and the refractor field. At the current moment, they give exactly the same benefit. I would suggest bumping the power shield up to a 4++, but they can never have a bonus for two CCWs in combat if they choose to use it. So they can gain extra attack power if they want it, but against other targets, they may want to use their shields. That brings it in line more with things like storm shields, differentiates it to the refractor field, and gives the player tactical choice.

Sounds pretty good, it gives them a slightly weaker version of the Storm Shield, and they are but humans.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think you should just have Camo-cloaks for +1 Cover Save, and let it stack with Stealth.

Just call it a camo-cloak, and leave it at that. No need to invent something that already exists.

Additionally, I'd suggest making a difference between the power shield and the refractor field. At the current moment, they give exactly the same benefit. I would suggest bumping the power shield up to a 4++, but they can never have a bonus for two CCWs in combat if they choose to use it. So they can gain extra attack power if they want it, but against other targets, they may want to use their shields. That brings it in line more with things like storm shields, differentiates it to the refractor field, and gives the player tactical choice.

Already done for the camo-cloak. We are back at the old name with the same bonus. It's indeed a bit silly to rename something that already exist.

Power Shield no longer grants an extra attack since they don't count as an extra close combat weapon. I can agree with for a 4++. I will change it immediatly.

Is there any reason why you've made hotshot lasguns assault 2 rather than rapid fire?
And why is the smg essentially pistol 4, since smgs are generally 2 handed weapons? I could get behind those being assault 2.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Is there any reason why you've made hotshot lasguns assault 2 rather than rapid fire?
And why is the smg essentially pistol 4, since smgs are generally 2 handed weapons? I could get behind those being assault 2.

Probably because the Hotshot Lasgun SHOULD be Assault 2. Quite frankly that fix alone makes them a pretty decent unit.

Because rapid fire hotshots are really bad. Assault 2 is a nice buff and gives the Scions a nice 18'' threat range, which is something not a lot of things get.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Is there any reason why you've made hotshot lasguns assault 2 rather than rapid fire?
And why is the smg essentially pistol 4, since smgs are generally 2 handed weapons? I could get behind those being assault 2.

Probably because the Hotshot Lasgun SHOULD be Assault 2. Quite frankly that fix alone makes them a pretty decent unit.

Scions rely a lot on mobility to deal damage and stay alive. Right now, its extremely difficult to do either because their wepons are rapid fire 18. It's a fix designed to improve the very mediocre Scions. The lack of a weapon they can use to fill their niche is what plague the unit since the third eddition and why they were considered at best average and worst complete trash.

SMG is a wide category of weapon that can include. depending on your classification, machine pistols like Isrealian uzi who can be used one handed in a pinch. Idealy, they are used with both hands and Scions would do so, but could use them with a single hand during close combat since they would be light enough. Furthermore, some machine pistol and SMG's like the famous Uzi have a fire rate that is the triple of that of a standard rifle on full auto. Thus if a rifle shoots one or two shots, such a machine pistol would fire three or four. It's purely mathematical. The Skitarii codex has indroduced the concept of a multiple shot pistol in two of their units.

Well say it's a hotshot Uzi then, it should have a range of about 6'' then. Also keeps the ranges working in multiples of 6.
When you say hotshot smg I think of something more like an MP5.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Well say it's a hotshot Uzi then, it should have a range of about 6'' then. Also keeps the ranges working in multiples of 6.
When you say hotshot smg I think of something more like an MP5.

I will not change the name since Uzi is a brand name not a type of weapon. I'll try to make it clearer in the description of the weapon though

I will not limit myself to multiple of 6. There is several weapons like the Hot-Shot laspistol who have a range of 9 inches as we speak. Thus multiple of 3 are kosher too.

All the units and the equipment are now completed. The Warlord Traits, Special Rules and the detachment are also completed and ready to be reviewed. Only the Formations remain to completed and should be done whithin a week or so. I would like thank all those who have participated on this thread so far, especially Sgt_Smudge and kirotheavenger.

Looking at the detachment, I see no reason why I wouldn't take it over a CAD. Sure, I lose an Elite slot and two Troops, but I get lots of Fast Attack slots in return. At minimum requirement, it's cheaper, because I don't need to buy two Platoons of Scions - only one Platoon, and then I can just get some cheap Aer Scions or a Venator. In fact, I wouldn't need to take many Scion platoons, because the Aer Scions are more plentiful, and would have ObSec.

It has all the CAD benefits (Ideal Mission Commander, ObSec) and also accurate Deepstrike?

I think it needs to be less of an autotake over the CAD.

Oh jesus! It has Ob Sec on EVERYONE, not just the troops! Yeah, that is very much CAD+.

I'm a little iffy on Tempestor Prime giving Precision Shots to his whole squad, but then again, Precision Shots ain't all that good. I want to see him playtested, but it SEEMS okay.

Commisars seem fine, though I'm a touch iffy on giving the Lords WS/BS 5. Guard Lord Commisars only get 4, and you're paying a mere 15 points for +1 to four stats.

Character upgrades are NOT 2 points. They might not be worth 10, but they are certainly worth more than 2!

For grenades, that's PER MODEL, right?

Also, why are your base scions WS 4?

And why are your CC Scions I4? They're still very human.

Shield Lock is too good. It should not give an extra attack or counterattack-3+ save is enough.

Will look over more soon.

The normal Scion Lord Commissar gets WS/BS5, so does the Commissar-General (Lord equivalent from the Krieg army)

Tempestor Primes and D99 Elysians are I4, so that's within human reach. Scions are special forces, if Kriegsmen can be WS4 then so can the elite human.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The normal Scion Lord Commissar gets WS/BS5, so does the Commissar-General (Lord equivalent from the Krieg army)

Tempestor Primes and D99 Elysians are I4, so that's within human reach. Scions are special forces, if Kriegsmen can be WS4 then so can the elite human.

Fair enough. My other comments stand, though.

Yeah, just noticed on grenades for Ignis Scions - is that 2 PER scion, or 2 for the unit?

As for Arnis Scions - getting 3 attacks if in Shield Lock? Leave it at just Counter-Attack.

The Krassus Brothers grant you 4 Warlord traits, and don't give up StW when killed, and can be put in separate units?
I think 4 Warlord Traits is a bit much.

Basic Scions are WS: 3. Only the Tempestus Scion Prime, the Ignis Scion and the Armis Scions are WS: 4

Initiative 4 is within human reach considering that some units do have access to initiative 4. Initiative seems to be the stats with the most variety within a single race/army. Sister of Silence are humans but are Initiave 5, so are Death Cult assassins (but I think those are enhanced).

Yes, the grenade update is per model, I will add the precision.

The Objective Secure rule is supposed to apply only to Troop choices. I thought it was the case by default (at least in my memory), I will add it as a precision.

I do consider removing the extra attack on the Armis Scion in formation. On one hand, it's rather powerful, but on the other, I fear that due to their pretty average initiative, their low toughness and their pretty average armor save they wont be of much use, especially next to Ignis Scions. I will remove the extra attack for now and do some play testing to see what gives. It might make a return.

The Krassus Brothers gives StW when both of them are killed, not just one. But its possible to get it rather easily since neither of them are Eternal Warriors.

Considering their price tag and their fragility, I don't think that the 4 Warlord Traits are too much, but it is pretty damn good. I will seriously reconsider it and see what gives during play testing. Currently, I have only played three games with those house rules and none with them in my list.

Deadeye shot warlord trait seems a bit... random. Surely that should give something like rending, precision shots, or preferred enemy.

Army detachments tend to sacrifice ObSec for their chosen benefits (or at least my Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers do). I don't see why your's shouldn't.

Why do all scions start with a HS-lasgun, HS-laspistol AND a CCW? I don't think they should get a CCW, you said yourself these aren't melee troops, even astartes don't get those.
Secondly, when you say they may buy grenades, you should say that the UNIT may purchase grenades at X points PER MODEL. Otherwise you would just give one guy the grenades for the whole squad.

Also your Ignis Scions are paying 2pts per model to gain conceal, +1 attack and conceal.
That is a lot for very cheap.
And why do all Scions get stealth? Oh and currently you have every Command Scion model equipped with a Clarion Vox Net, might want to specify it's only one of them.
Also I couldn't see what conceal did anywhere.

Your Victory Prime is just a supped up cheaper Vulture.
Significantly so.
You've done the same thing with the Venators. Why?

Armis Scions have 3 one-handed weapons. Pistol, sword and shield.

Even your Insidius Sniper Scions have CCWs...

Why isn't the shield generator a skimmer?

Also you need to specify things better.
Things like the self repair system, when do you roll that dice? How many dice can you roll at once? Can you roll that dice again?

In the BRB Extra Armour counts any crew stunned results as crew shaken instead.

Your HS-snipers don't have the sniper special rule?
Why are giant slayer missiles A: called Giant slayer (they're anti-vehicle) and B: blast?
The power spear say it's S:-/+1 AP:4/3 why?


I think that's all my thoughts for the first pass
I know I'm taking the position of the naysayer, but those played a vital role in the kings courts

I wish I could help you to tighten up your grammar a little, if you like I could just copy/paste the whole thing, then you copy/paste it back with my corrections

Stormtroopers used to have both the pistol and the CCW, the Scion codex changed that, to the dismay of many people.

Reading kiro's points, I have to agree on certain points and admit I have overlooked things.

Stealth armywide is considerably good. I didn't notice that before, and now I see it, I feel it's a bit TOO good. MtC is fine though.

Gun, pistol and CCW likewise is not okay - this way, even the most basic Scion has two attacks base. I would remove the CCW.

The Insidias guys' weapons should have the Sniper USR, if they are using actual snipers. If they're using weapons as snipers, but aren't actual sniper rifles (such as a lascannon used for sniping), then I'd suggest renaming the Hot-Shot Snipers.

Still no idea on Conceal as a rule. Is it like the Shrouded USR?

Agreed on the CCW issue. Maybe, maybe for your CC Units. Not for all of them.

Why does the Aer Guidance System grant Acute Senses?

What does the Conceal rule do? It's not listed under special rules.

Caducus missiles are ridiculously good anti-air. 3 shots at S9 AP2? Against FLYERS? That better cost a big ol' bundle.

The Shock Sword is just about as good as a Power Maul. I'd make it either S+1 if you want to keep it cheaper, or change it entirely.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Stormtroopers used to have both the pistol and the CCW, the Scion codex changed that, to the dismay of many people.

Rightly so, I think. There are very few units in game now with rifle, pistol and CCW, and I see no reason that these Scions, which are being emphasised as shooty, would have more attacks than a standard Space Marine.