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Silverblad66 wrote:
Thanks for the advice very helpful as I am very new to the hobby. I made a few mistakes as I thought Morty could deep strike. Very helpful to point out the mistakes and how to correct. It will help plan what I want to buy and paint to play regularly.

You guys are awesome!

Always glad to help, and don't worry I had to check to make sure morty couldn't deepstrike or be summoned lol. I really wish he could deepstrike, it'd solve so many problems with making him work well.

On that note, do you have access to the chaos index or the CSM codex? If not, might want to borrow a friend's just to get the info for the normal CSM psychic powers, for the non DG sorcerer I recommended (who otherwise uses the same datasheet and points cost as the DG terminator sorcerer). Warptime is the power you really want, it allows a friendly unit to move in the psychic phase as if it was the movement phase, basically doubling it's speed. It's pretty essential for making mortarion work well.

 Khornate25 wrote:
Beside the Biologis putrifier, which of the new solo-elite do you guys think is worth it ? The Foul Blightspawn might be a nice combo with the biologis in my opinion.

Foul hands down is winner for me. I don't even count superb ability of grenade or stoping enemies from going first.
What i'm talking about is his damn "flamer" that thing alone makes him worth his points - and that dude is at cost of single Deathshroud terminator.

Basically autopick. He has potential to kill land Raider in one turn - not that it will happen often lol. But that flat 3 damage AP-3 is no joke - even if you didnt roll well for strenght.

Very cheap for what he can potentially do for your army.

With Elite slot it's problematic with DG - a lot of competition.

For sure Surgeon won't make it - he is cheap and all, but his rerolling 1's on 5+ FNP is trash ... increase of whole ~~5,5% to pass FNP - no thanks. As his second skill doesnt work against xenos etc.
Biologus ain't autopick - he is good as long as you got CC oriented Plague Marines . In that case he sure is worth it.
Noxious Blightbringer - may or may not be worth - depending on your composition. But his advance skill is noteworthy.
Tallyman - he actually impressed, his CP skill is actually only 50% worse than Guilliman Warlord trait. As it triggers on 1/6 situations compared to 1/3. That alone is cool, then again only worth if you got dedicated CC dudes that he can follow. He is reasonably cheap - you get him for less than Deathshroud ^_^.

Even good elite may not be good enough when there are things like blightlords that will asap take 1 slot. You take foul and just 1 thing more. Unless Vanguard of course.

 Khornate25 wrote:
Beside the Biologis putrifier, which of the new solo-elite do you guys think is worth it ? The Foul Blightspawn might be a nice combo with the biologis in my opinion.

Tallyman is really good if you plan to run melee elements with lower WS, particularly poxwalker screens. He can also help a lot with fleshmower bloat drones if you are willing to pop him in a transport so he can keep up. You could even make one warlord with arch-contaminator to boost some melee plague marines, though morty or a generic chaos lord do this about as well on the 3+ WS plague marines. Plus the occasional cp restore is nice.

The purifier isn't bad for boosting a melee screening unit that will likely get charged, but his death's head isn't going to have much impact and doesn't benefit from the stratagem, which would be hilarious. The plague sprayer is also interesting and "fun", it could blow up a land raider or predator in a single shooting phase or it could utterly fail to wound a single Gretchen. On average, it's good against MEQ, TEQ, and primaris equivalents. Honestly, I'd be more likely to use him alongside tallyman in the backfield than with the putrifier.

The only one I don't see myself using at all is the apothecary. Too expensive for an ability that doesn't do enough.

Ok so, is multiple foul blightspawn an idea?

I suppose this question has already been asked but: what about the blightlords? How to field them and equip them?
1. Given their slow movement I d take some massive shootin but the blight launcher is limited to one, the plasma are too dangerous (as stated before) n melta are too expensive; so the only option I can see is the cheap combi bolter
2. The CC weapons are autopick: axes and a flail
3.My best idea is to teleport them with typhus on the first turn with Typhus to buff poxwalkers, shoot and do magic, and try to charge in the next round (or being charged, not to worried about)

DarklyDreaming wrote:I suppose this question has already been asked but: what about the blightlords? How to field them and equip them?
1. Given their slow movement I d take some massive shootin but the blight launcher is limited to one, the plasma are too dangerous (as stated before) n melta are too expensive; so the only option I can see is the cheap combi bolter
2. The CC weapons are autopick: axes and a flail
3.My best idea is to teleport them with typhus on the first turn with Typhus to buff poxwalkers, shoot and do magic, and try to charge in the next round (or being charged, not to worried about)

I'd mostly agree, keep them as cheap as possible with combi bolters+melee, maybe the flail, drop typhus in for psychic dakka, use the terminators as a cheapish and very tough bulwark the enemy can't ignore.

You could use plasma and a terminator lord to reroll ones, the 18" range could allow you to hit something juicy. Still, normal CSM terminators do this better overall.

Captyn_Bob wrote:Ok so, is multiple foul blightspawn an idea?

Why would you want multiple? For the grenade? The grenade ability is a gimmick, it doubles a single character's grenades once. It's not worth using for that. Nor is the plague sprayer so good you should spam him. Take him for the ability to mess up charges, everything else is bonus.

Let me expain with some mathematics behind it:
1. I field the pox in the center of my deployment, on average they are gonna be 24' from enemy
2. In my turn they advance movin on an average of 7'
3. Typhus n the Terminators DS at 9,1 from the enemy, in order to protect typhus he must be behind them, so he's gonna be 11/12 ' from the enemy (counting a little distance between them, and the bases are quite large)
4. Being the poxes (24-7)17' from the enemy, and Typhus 12', they are gonna be totally in range(17-12=5 <7)!
5. I will not charge because I risk to leave Typhus behind and vulnerable
6. If the enemy charges, they are gonna reduce the distance by 10 (=9,1), so on my turn they are gonna be 7'from the poxwalker! Even counting some turning, I can easily charge with the poxes and get a huge boost in movements!

What do you think?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ok so, is multiple foul blightspawn an idea?

Yes , unpack them from Rhino/Land Raider with whatever else you have and for example 3D6 , up to S12 AP-3 3 damage autohits . Whatever it is - it's dead .

The only problem here is kinda mandatory Vanguard detachment. But that ain't that big problem.

So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
What do you think?

Cultists in rapid fire range put out more damage per point than melee poxwalkers and are going to be shooting s turn earlier than poxwalkers can melee thanks to 18" RF, not to mention the heavy stubber they can bring along.

Poxwalkers are a defensive screening unit and that really is it, though they can do it well. They don't work well with typhus and building synergy between the two is so difficult you might as well just not bother. Unless you need to escort something up field, like a blight hauler, the two honestly should never be in range of each other.

 Khornate25 wrote:
So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !

What gave you that impression? At 75 ppm for the cheapest loadout vs 45 for the cheapest blightlord loadout, with the same durability per model, I don't know why you'd deepstrike them. They are a little more damaging in melee (a lot more vs multiwound targets), but they have no shooting out of deepstrike.

Unless you are putting them in a landraider with an HQ unit or using warp speed on them, they are generally inferior to our normal terminators.

 Khornate25 wrote:
So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !

No they are trash for 75 ppm you get special characters or lord lol.
And 2 wounds , heavily armored but 2 wounds.

Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.

As it stands they don't even qualify for intercepting hits as they are most expensive unit in points per wound lol.
In fact I will gladly let my characters intercept hits aimed at deathshroud xd


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
What do you think?

Cultists in rapid fire range put out more damage per point than melee poxwalkers and are going to be shooting s turn earlier than poxwalkers can melee thanks to 18" RF, not to mention the heavy stubber they can bring along.

Poxwalkers are a defensive screening unit and that really is it, though they can do it well. They don't work well with typhus and building synergy between the two is so difficult you might as well just not bother. Unless you need to escort something up field, like a blight hauler, the two honestly should never be in range of each other.

 Khornate25 wrote:
So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !

What gave you that impression? At 75 ppm for the cheapest loadout vs 45 for the cheapest blightlord loadout, with the same durability per model, I don't know why you'd deepstrike them. They are a little more damaging in melee (a lot more vs multiwound targets), but they have no shooting out of deepstrike.

Unless you are putting them in a landraider with an HQ unit or using warp speed on them, they are generally inferior to our normal terminators.

That part about little damage in meele is huge lie there dude.

10 attacks sure may not wreck horde, but 4D6 auto hits with S3 plague weapon can sure melt crapton of conscripts. And yes you can shoot in CC in your turn. Yes 4D6 not 3D6 - champion actually got 2 gauntlets.

Truth about Deathshroud is they are pretty deadly - once they get into CC - that is not that easy part, but super slow and not durable enough to justify so high price.

mario88826 wrote:

Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.

IMHO the price is still too high. The rules for these models could be nice but they are at least 15 points overpriced because you either risk a lot or struggle to deliver them and they even have Skornergy with the primarch they are supposed to protect if such protection is supposed to happen for more than 1 turn.

Now that I think about it, the Death Guard has its dose of Skornergy. Like Typhus and Poxwalkers.

Is pretty ironic. I find in the Death Guard part of the appeal of Cryx, but they went full Skorne with some of the units.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.

IMHO the price is still too high. The rules for these models could be nice but they are at least 15 points overpriced because you either risk a lot or struggle to deliver them and they even have Skornergy with the primarch they are supposed to protect if such protection is supposed to happen for more than 1 turn.

Now that I think about it, the Death Guard has its dose of Skornergy. Like Typhus and Poxwalkers.

Is pretty ironic. I find in the Death Guard part of the appeal of Cryx, but they went full Skorne with some of the units.

Ouch. I actually just recently got rid of my Skorne because it was just not working for me. Le sigh. I get it though. It has been the main issue I have had listbuilding for Death Guard - in that I can't make strategies that support one another. I want a diverse list that won't get rolled... which means I am probably playing the wrong faction anyhow and should grab Imperial Soup or something!

On an aside, tossing around lists and trying to make something that won't die instantly, but isn't maxed out so much that I don't want to play/paint it.

How does this look?

HQ:
Typhus
[175]

Necrosius
[120]

Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]

Tallyman
Plasma Pistol
[67]

Troops:
(19) Poxwalkers
[114]

(15) Cultists
Autoguns, Heavy Stubber
[64]

(7) Plague Marines
2x Blight Launchers, Plasma Gun
[174]

(7) Plague Marines
2x Blight Launchers, Plasma Gun
[174]

Dedicated Transports:
Chaos Rhino
Combi-Bolter
[72]

Chaos Rhino
Combi-Bolter
[72]

Fast Attack:
Foetid Bloat Drone
Fleshmower, Probe
[136]

Foetid Bloat Drone
Fleshmower, Probe
[136]

Heavy:
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortar, 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
[156]

Superheavy Aux
Mortarion
[470]

[2000]

....viable at all?

SilverAlien wrote:

Why would you want multiple? For the grenade? The grenade ability is a gimmick, it doubles a single character's grenades once. It's not worth using for that. Nor is the plague sprayer so good you should spam him. Take him for the ability to mess up charges, everything else is bonus.

Probably because most people are going to try for blight bombardment + veterans of the long war + chaos lord for grenades with rerolls to hit, 2 damage base and mortal wounds on a 5+.

Not to mention that their souped up flamers are great against flyers and other stuff that's usually hard to deal with.

But again, foulspawn does nothing to benefit blight bombardment. He literally can never improve that stratagem at all. Putrifier can, but there is still no reason to run more than.

Anyways I've actually been list tinkering a bit, thinking something like this


Poxwalkers screen the backfield with blightcrawlers and the lord+tallyman, cultists grab objectives, everything else runs up the field. If I'm real careful with wargear I think I might be able to grab a fleshmower drone as well. Or if I rearrange things into a spearhead and a battalion and cut the terminator lord.

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, foulspawn does nothing to benefit blight bombardment. He literally can never improve that stratagem at all. Putrifier can, but there is still no reason to run more than.

Anyways I've actually been list tinkering a bit, thinking something like this

Spoiler:

LoW: morty

Nurgle battalion detachment:
HQ: renegade CSM nurgle bike or jump pack sorcerer
Epidermis
Troops: 2 x 10 poxwalkers
1x9 plague marines, with double knives and 2 flails
Elite: 1 putrifier
Transport: rhino

DG battalion detachment
HQ: chaos lord
Chaos lord in terminator armor
Troops: 3x10 autogun and heavy stubber cultists
Elite: Tallyman
Heavy support: 3 blightcrawlers

Poxwalkers screen the backfield with blightcrawlers and the lord+tallyman, cultists grab objectives, everything else runs up the field. If I'm real careful with wargear I think I might be able to grab a fleshmower drone as well. Or if I rearrange things into a spearhead and a battalion and cut the terminator lord.

You mean other than launching 3d6 blight grenade shots from the footprint of a single plague marine? That's a fairly significant increase in output.

The foulspawn's grenade thing can only benefit characters. It does not, in anyway, work with blight bombardment.

SilverAlien wrote:
The foulspawn's grenade thing can only benefit characters. It does not, in anyway, work with blight bombardment.

It doesn't have to? Blight bombardment doesn't make the grenades better, it just let's every plague marine throw one. The characters can already throw one.

Foulspawn's 'grenade thing' just adds 3d6 more to the mix and it does benefit from biologus' buff and veterans of the long war.

Point is, foulspawns add a lot of grenades to your big rain of grenades for very little extra foot print and they got that wonderful flamer thing to boot.

Which is helpful for overkill or making up for a few lost plague marines when you finally do your blight bombardment.

I'm not saying it's always the optimal choice but there's worse things to spend your points on than an extra foulspawn. If you do get multiples, they'll pull their weight. It's not wasted space.

It's a one turn ability that adds 1d6 grenade shots. That's absolutely trivial. The plague sprayer is better but still kinda iffy considering it's a 9" anti tank/MC weapon. It's mainly that support ability you take him for.

No it's not just support ability. He cannot be targeted unless by some assassin so he can freely move up behind your whatever you have in front lol. And whatever gets in range - and he can shoot after moving aswell - it gets toasted. He got potential to turn around game with some good Sprey 'n Pray .

Support ability is just addition , though very nice one.

77 points is joke for guy who can by 2 ways turn game around - either by changing fighting order in CC or by wiping some custodes unit with good shooting phase.

In fact I will go even further - I bet many players who use fliers - will get surprised by this dude. When they fly above your units and land near this guy - they may not expect how he can put down even most resillient flying units - and he doesn't give a gak about -1 to hit.

Tbh, I am approximately zero percent impressed with the elites choices (characters, that is) except for the Tallyman (amazing). The blightspawn looks ok on paper until you realize that once you're in range, they can usually assault the squad protecting you and consolidate into him.

The blightbringer letting you advance faster is ok but not gamebreaking. The surgeon is nice but I'd rather have necrosius is most situations. And the putrifier....eh

I tried to build a list incorporating what I wanted into 2000 points and ended up jettisoning all of the elite characters. Lords are a requirement for a battleforged army. So, we bring them because we have to, and some are good. But every time I think that for the cost of an elite character, I can bring 4 more plague marines, it just doesn’t make sense, unless the buff is they bring is so good it’s the keystone to a big part of my army’s strategy.

But let’s break it down. If we are going shooty, which was the first list I tried to build. Then we have the plague crawlers. And we also want plague marines supported by a blight hauler in the mid field shooting blight launchers and plasma guns. What’s the key buff for such an army? It’s the reroll 1 to hit provided by a lord, a daemon prince. Its none of the buffs from the elite characters.
My second list was trying to incorporate Mortarion. So, it was an assault based army (because by the time you finish having other units built around supporting Mortarion, your list is an assault one already). And again, none of the buffs provided by the elite characters were any key buffs that was needed for such an army. Mortarion’s buffs alone were all I needed already. He has archcontaminator and he gives reroll 1s to hit. None of the elite characters can keep up with the assault elements I was putting into the list to support Mortarion anyway. I had stuff like bloat drones, plague drones, a flying daemon prince all flying at least 10 inches. And Mortarion himself flies 12 inches. Trying to stuff in an elite character would have just held the entire assault element back. And if it wasn’t in that assault group, then it wasn’t key to the list’s strategy either.

And every time I wanted to keep an elite character in, I would think to myself, if I take him out, I can add 4 more plague marines… Deathguard already doesn’t have that many bodies in the army, unless you are going for pox walker spam. So, having even fewer bodies at the cost of adding more elite characters which are not even a requirement for a battleforged army just didn’t make sense. So, in the end I ditched all of them. The only elite character I might consider would be the one that buffs the damage and grenades by 1. which is the Biologus, but even then, only if you really had the points to spare. I am finding that to squeeze in the stuff I want is a real challenge.

In fairness part of the issue is you are apparently running lots of plague marines, who eat up points. You need some poxwalkers or cultists to fill out your army and open up other options. Plague marines are a sometimes snack, compared to the solid filling meal that are our cheap horde units.

mario88826 wrote:
No it's not just support ability. He cannot be targeted unless by some assassin so he can freely move up behind your whatever you have in front lol. And whatever gets in range - and he can shoot after moving aswell - it gets toasted. He got potential to turn around game with some good Sprey 'n Pray

It's a 9 inch range weapon made for killing elites and vehicles. It's great in the same way gifts of chaos is great at sniping enemy characters. I mean, it's 4-6 mortal wounds!

I can see the value in using it as back field defender, where deepstriking terminators and the like will pop up exposed. It can even be good for deterring flyers. But it's not something you spam and ram down the enemy's throat. I just can't see that working out unless your meta leans towards all primaris armies or something similar.

Here's the list.

Daemon prince of Nurgle with Fugris Helm. (no wings)

Typhus (deep strike into midfield with the blightlords, provide poxwalker buff, psyker, and good at fighting).

3 squads of 5 plague marines. double blight launchers. Champ with plasma gun. Just 1 special melee weapon, like either a flail or an axe. The rest are just plague marines with bolters. This 15 marines don't even add up to 450 points. (each sqaud is less than 150 points).

1 squad of 20 paoxwalkers (synergy with Typhus, will provide bubble wrap for my heavy support tanks at first, and then march up the board).

1 squad of 10 poxwalkers.

5 blightlord terminators with combi plasma and axes (deep strike in with Typhus).

1 Blight Hauler - provide cover save aura for the 3 squads of plague marines, and some additional shooting.

1 Feotid bloat drone with heavy blight launcher - with the heavy support, and to tie up any melee cc that gets too close to them.

3 plagueburst crawlers - heavy support shooty tanks.

Total - 2000 points.

As you can see, it has lots of shooting. The idea is to own the mid field with the 3 plague marine squads, the 20 pox walkers, the daemon prince, typhus and the blightlords. But at the same time, I have 18 blight launcher shots, 16 plasma gun shots, and the rest of the shooting from the blight hauler and plague burst crawlers every turn as well. So, its definitely a shooty list.

Focus too much on my shooting, and eventually, Typhus and the pox walkers will make their way up the board and then you get 40 str 5 hits plus happening in CC. (Blightlords can fight too with their axes).

So, I simply couldn't make any room for elite characters, and personally, I didn't really see a need for them. The 3 squads of plagues were there to own the midfield and shoot, not there to really fight. Same for the blightlords. I needed the reroll 1 to hit aura, and arch contaminator aura more than any other aura.

BTW, if I take Typhus, I can still make my Daemon prince the warlord and bring archcontaminator right? There isn't any rule that a special characeter must be the warlord right?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
.

BTW, if I take Typhus, I can still make my Daemon prince the world lord and bring archcontaminator right? There isn't any rule that a special characeter must be the warlord right?

There's no such rule. Not even for Mortarion, and he's a frickin Primarch.

Good to know!

Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.

Kryddbov wrote:
Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.

They have the nurgle, daemon and daemon engine keywords.

So, one advantage of blightlord terminators is that there is no weapon really built to kill them well. Overcharged plasma, which works wonders for killing normal terminators, really falls apart against blightlords. It doesn't double out our toughness, the AP is mostly lost, and 2 damage isn't nearly as amazing when each wound can be saved independently on a 2w model.

Personally I wasn't that impressed with them given they weren't the double firing warptime alpha strike terminators I've come to love in my vanilla CSM army, but blightlord terminators will stick around multiple rounds which evens things out a bit.

Kryddbov wrote:
Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.

Epidemius armies are pretty awesome, not sure about in the tournament scene, but I have been running an army that is all units that have NURGLE and DAEMON. Mostly daemon engines, a huge PB blob, oblits and DPs. Bloat drones get a nice buff, as their guns are strength user.