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I’m returning to 40k after over 5 years away, and I’m building the army I’ve always wanted – lots and lots of Eldar jetbikes.

I’m reading up on Eldar builds, and it seems the preference is scatter lasers over shuriken cannons. I’d like to ask the 40k community why that is? I understand an additional 12” range is nice, but is it really greater than the value of bladestorm? Here’s the math behind my question…

Let’s say I have 9 jetbikes shooting into a squad of space marines.
With scatter lasers, I’m looking at 18 hits, 15 wounds, 5 kills after saves.
With shuriken cannson, I’m looking at 18 hits, 12 wounds + ~3 rending, 7 (4+3) kills after saves.

I have similar math that suggests cannons are better vs monstrous creatures, guard, nids, etc by sheer fact that they have an AP.

So why does every competitive list seem to stack scatter lasers?

Thanks in advance for helping an old player return to the game with some understanding of what he’s getting into.

You missed that scatter lasers are 4 shots while shuriken cannons are 3.

9 man scatter lasers get 36 shots
9 man shuriken cannons get 27 shots.

Scatter Lasers are 4 shots.
Your example would produce 24 hits, 20 wounds and 6/7 failed saves.

I think it's because shuricannons have less range and are slightly worse against vehicles or units with no armor like wraiths due to having less shots.

Ah! Thank you both for pointing out this big error in my math.

So the added range + added shot is better in most situations?

I think if you are using that Jetbike formation in Eldar Codex, the Shuriken Cannon is better choice, otherwise I always suggest scatter laser.

Scatter lasers are the best choice for traditional Eldar Windriders. Although the damage output is roughly the same, the extra range can mean the difference between getting in range and darting away, or being too close and getting killed. In the end, Shuricannons only have an edge on units with 2+ save, or high T models with 3+ or better save. Scatter lasers either average the same damage against other targets, or in the case of vehicles, beat the Shuricannon.

I LOVE the Shuricannon though and I think that they are worth taking, especially for Ynnari and Black Guardian Windriders. Ynnari want to be closer for Soulburst opportunites, and BGs have no problems getting in range in a place that they can 2d6 move out of LoS.

I am an advocate of mixed units. 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons in a unit of 3 Bikes seems to be the sweet spot for me. I can move them so that the 2 Shuricannons are in exactly 24" of 2-3 models, then once they have removed a few models, the Scatter laser can fire.
If I need to stay well out of 24", the single Scatter keeps the somewhat useful.

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 Galef wrote:
Scatter lasers are the best choice for traditional Eldar Windriders. Although the damage output is roughly the same, the extra range can mean the difference between getting in range and darting away, or being too close and getting killed. In the end, Shuricannons only have an edge on units with 2+ save, or high T models with 3+ or better save. Scatter lasers either average the same damage against other targets, or in the case of vehicles, beat the Shuricannon.

I LOVE the Shuricannon though and I think that they are worth taking, especially for Ynnari and Black Guardian Windriders. Ynnari want to be closer for Soulburst opportunites, and BGs have no problems getting in range in a place that they can 2d6 move out of LoS.

I am an advocate of mixed units. 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons in a unit of 3 Bikes seems to be the sweet spot for me. I can move them so that the 2 Shuricannons are in exactly 24" of 2-3 models, then once they have removed a few models, the Scatter laser can fire.
If I need to stay well out of 24", the single Scatter keeps the somewhat useful.

-

Thank you for the detailed explanation, and after consideration I too am starting to think a mixed build may be the way to go.

I'm planning on going with 3 units of 10-man windriders (non-uthwe for the moment). Would you suggest mixing weapons within the squads themselves, or perhaps 2 10-man scatter laser squads and 1 10-man shuriken cannon squad?

Well, 10 bikes is excessive in the extreme. Not only will you be wasting tons on shots because 30 Shurcannon shots or 40 S-laser shots will likely be overkill against most targets, but it also means the opponent has to target less units to really hurt you.

I would do no more that 6 bikes per unit, probably only 5.
And if you want to mix them, I would do 2 S-lasers and the rest Shuricannons.
Personally, I do 4 units of 3 bike with a 1/2 ratio in each unit. After those first 4 units, I might add a 5th 6-bike unit for my Seer to join,

If you absolutely dead-set on 10-bike units, do only 5-6 weapon upgrade and make the rest vanilla bikes as casualty absorbers.

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 Galef wrote:
Well, 10 bikes is excessive in the extreme. Not only will you be wasting tons on shots because 30 Shurcannon shots or 40 S-laser shots will likely be overkill against most targets, but it also means the opponent has to target less units to really hurt you.

I would do no more that 6 bikes per unit, probably only 5.
And if you want to mix them, I would do 2 S-lasers and the rest Shuricannons.
Personally, I do 4 units of 3 bike with a 1/2 ratio in each unit. After those first 4 units, I might add a 5th 6-bike unit for my Seer to join,

If you absolutely dead-set on 10-bike units, do only 5-6 weapon upgrade and make the rest vanilla bikes as casualty absorbers.

-

I'm only dead-set on an entire army of jetbikes and vehicles/fliers.
I'm wrapping my head around this new system of force organization (much different from when I played). I was just trying to build a Windrider Host, and I guess I have to take 1 auxiliary - which was going to be 3 quads of shining spears in an aspect host.

Could I break up the bikes into 5-man squads and take 2 Windrider Hosts? Do I need to then take a second auxiliary?
Would I then be vulnerable in kill point missions having too many small units?

This force organization has been the most confusing thing regarding my return to this game.

The Core choices are 1+, meaning 1 is required and more are optionally. So yes you may take 1 Windrider Hosts and you still only need 1 Auxiliary.

Although you may be better off with a CAD with 1 Farseer as HQ and 2+ units of more Bikes.
CAD, or Combined Arms Detahcment is just like the FOrce Org of old. As you can take as many detachments as you want, you can take the following:

Windrider Host:
Farseer
Warlock
3x 5 Bikes
Vyper

Aspect Host Auxilary:
3x Shining Spear units

CAD:
Farseer
3x 5 bikes

But if you do take the list like this, put all the Shuricannons in the Windrider host to maximize the bonus and take the Scatters in the CAD.
And Kill points are almost never a thing in 7th. there is only 1 out of the 12 standard rulebook missions that uses KPs. The rest are objective bases, in which more units benefit.
If you look a 90% of the Eldar tourney lists, they all use 3-elf bike squads.

-

personally - I think the windrider host is best utilized by shuiken cat bikes. A Unit of 10 bikes is only 170 points. Thats 20 TL pseudo rending shots with shred.
This will average about (5.5) rending wounds on a wraithkngiht - which is only a little bit less than the Shuiken cannons will average (roughly 6). Costs 100 points less.

Then when it comes to overwatch they are even more effective.

 Xenomancers wrote:
personally - I think the windrider host is best utilized by shuiken cat bikes. A Unit of 10 bikes is only 170 points. Thats 20 TL pseudo rending shots with shred.
This will average about (5.5) rending wounds on a wraithkngiht - which is only a little bit less than the Shuiken cannons will average (roughly 6). Costs 100 points less.

Then when it comes to overwatch they are even more effective.

Can you elaborate on the math you are using and their role overwatching?

Also, can I add 3 runweaver hosts to a windrider host, or is a runeweaver host a core choice that requires an auxiliary choice. If not, is this too many farseers?

Sorry for all the questions, but the information you guys are giving me vastly outstrips what I have been able to cobble together.

Runeweaver is that eldar starting formation?
It's standalone and not part of a mega-detachment so it doesn't need any cores or auxiliaries, nor can be used as core or auxiliary.

Runeweaver Host is the stand alone Formation from the Start Collecting box.
It has nothing to do with the Windrider Host and cannot, therefore be taken within it.

You can totally take a Windrider Host AND several Runewevar hosts in the same army, but the bikes taken in each detachment must be different bikes.
No units can occupy 2 different detachments. So in order to run a Windrider host and 2 Runweaver Hosts, you will need 5 minimum bike units and 3 minimum Faseers. 3 bikes for the WH, 1 each for the RWH, and 1 Seer for each Host. They cannot double up.

The shuriken cannon isn't bad, it is simply that the Scatterlaser gets more done overall.

The general guideline I give for all new Eldar players is keep the squad's at 3-5, and for every two units of Scatterlasers take a unit of Cannons.

I like squads of 3 bikes for one reason... they can always regroup.

I also prefer shuri cannons, but my meta includes a lot of 2+ armor infantry

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I like squads of 3 bikes for one reason... they can always regroup.

I also prefer shuri cannons, but my meta includes a lot of 2+ armor infantry

One of the bonuses for the Reborn Host that people seem to neglect is that units are Stubborn, but more importantly the do not take Moral for losing 25% if within 7" on another unit from the detachment.
That, to me, is perfect for 3-man units since 1 los will no longer make them run away.

I'd like to say that it warms my heart to see so much Shuricannon love.

-

 Galef wrote:
Runeweaver Host is the stand alone Formation from the Start Collecting box.
It has nothing to do with the Windrider Host and cannot, therefore be taken within it.

You can totally take a Windrider Host AND several Runewevar hosts in the same army, but the bikes taken in each detachment must be different bikes.
No units can occupy 2 different detachments. So in order to run a Windrider host and 2 Runweaver Hosts, you will need 5 minimum bike units and 3 minimum Faseers. 3 bikes for the WH, 1 each for the RWH, and 1 Seer for each Host. They cannot double up.

I'm also trying to wrap my head around the Uthwe Strike Force. Where does this fit into the Force Organization?

Could I Windrider Host + Aspect Host + Runweaver Hostx3 + Uthwe Strike Force? (provided every squad of bikes is separated into it's own Formations)
Do Uthwe Windriders count as Windriders for the purpose of filling compulsory windrider slots in a Windrider Host?

Thank you all so much for helping me to understand this. It seems to me that I'm shortchanging myself if I don't try to fit my army into formations

No they do not. Black Gaurdian Windriders have their own unit entry and are completely different units. The UFS is yet another detachment of its own.
You can either take BG bikes as Elites in an Eldar CAD, Ynnari Reborn Warhost, or as choices in an Ulthwe Strike Force. All 3 detachments are separate and unrelated.

You could build a list with a Windrider Host + Aspect host comprising your Eldar Warhost, and then add an Eldar CAD with it's own Farseer, units of Elite BG WIndriders and Troop WIndriders and THEN as an Ulthwe Strike Force with 4 additional units of BG bikes or Vypers.

MOST local areas and tourney try to restrict armies to 3 detachments. The above is both 4 and 3 dethacments. Sorry to be confusing, but the Eldar Warhost that has the Windrider Host and the Aspect Host technically is 1 detachment because it falls under 1 "meta-detachment"
GW has yet to put out a name for this kind of detachment, but most armies now have one.

So just to recap, there are like 5-6 different way to bring Windriders:
Windrider Host
CAD - both for Troop WRs and Elite BG WRs
Runeweaver Host
Ynnari Reborn Host (this can either be similar to a CAD, or you can actually take the WIndrider Host here too)
Ulthwe Strike Force - only BGs

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 Galef wrote:
No they do not. Black Gaurdian Windriders have their own unit entry and are completely different units. The UFS is yet another detachment of its own.
You can either take BG bikes as Elites in an Eldar CAD, Ynnari Reborn Warhost, or as choices in an Ulthwe Strike Force. All 3 detachments are separate and unrelated.

You could build a list with a Windrider Host + Aspect host comprising your Eldar Warhost, and then add an Eldar CAD with it's own Farseer, units of Elite BG WIndriders and Troop WIndriders and THEN as an Ulthwe Strike Force with 4 additional units of BG bikes or Vypers.

MOST local areas and tourney try to restrict armies to 3 detachments. The above is both 4 and 3 dethacments. Sorry to be confusing, but the Eldar Warhost that has the Windrider Host and the Aspect Host technically is 1 detachment because it falls under 1 "meta-detachment"
GW has yet to put out a name for this kind of detachment, but most armies now have one.

So just to recap, there are like 5-6 different way to bring Windriders:
Windrider Host
CAD - both for Troop WRs and Elite BG WRs
Runeweaver Host
Ynnari Reborn Host (this can either be similar to a CAD, or you can actually take the WIndrider Host here too)
Ulthwe Strike Force - only BGs

-

Ok, I think I understand. So the following list is legal at 1845?:

Windrider Host = Farseer + Bike + Spear, Warlock (Conclave) + Spear + Bike, 4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons, 4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons, 4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons, 3x Vipers +3x bright lance

Aspect Host = 3x Shing Spears + Exarch, 3x Shing Spears + Exarch, 3x Shing Spears + Exarch

Uthwe Strike Force = 5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers, 5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers, 5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers, 5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers

Runeweaver Host = Farseer + Bike + Spear, 3x Windriders + 3x Scatter Lasers, Fire Prism

Can I join my Farseers and Warlock up to each Shinning Spear squad and go rear and side armor hunting?

Does this list look absurd?
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your help. It wasn't until today that all this force organization stuff made sense to me.

 incarna wrote:

Ok, I think I understand. So the following list is legal at 1845?:

Spoiler:

Windrider Host =
Farseer + Bike + Spear,
Warlock (Conclave) + Spear + Bike,
4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons,
4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons,
4x Windriders + 4x Shuriken Cannons,
3x Vipers +3x bright lance

Aspect Host =
3x Shing Spears + Exarch,
3x Shing Spears + Exarch,
3x Shing Spears + Exarch

Uthwe Strike Force =
5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers,
5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers,
5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers,
5x Black Guardian Windriders + 5x Scatter Lasers

Runeweaver Host =
Farseer + Bike + Spear,
3x Windriders + 3x Scatter Lasers,
Fire Prism

Can I join my Farseers and Warlock up to each Shinning Spear squad and go rear and side armor hunting?

Does this list look absurd?
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your help. It wasn't until today that all this force organization stuff made sense to me.

My pleasure.

I had to reformat your list for ease of reading, but yes, that is a legal list
And it is technically only 3 detachments, since the Windrider Host and Aspect host (normally 2 separate detachment on their own) are consider 1 detachment under the Eldar Warhost.

Warlocks are not ICs. They are Characters, but they do not have the IC rule that allows them to join units. The WRH requires you to take a Conclave rather that upgrade Warlocks in your bike units.
So no matter what, the Warlock is on his own. The Farseers could join him, but honestly, they are better off in the Shining Spears, or even just regular WIndrider units.

Star Lances are must haves for Shining Spears.

-

 incarna wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Scatter lasers are the best choice for traditional Eldar Windriders. Although the damage output is roughly the same, the extra range can mean the difference between getting in range and darting away, or being too close and getting killed. In the end, Shuricannons only have an edge on units with 2+ save, or high T models with 3+ or better save. Scatter lasers either average the same damage against other targets, or in the case of vehicles, beat the Shuricannon.

I LOVE the Shuricannon though and I think that they are worth taking, especially for Ynnari and Black Guardian Windriders. Ynnari want to be closer for Soulburst opportunites, and BGs have no problems getting in range in a place that they can 2d6 move out of LoS.

I am an advocate of mixed units. 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons in a unit of 3 Bikes seems to be the sweet spot for me. I can move them so that the 2 Shuricannons are in exactly 24" of 2-3 models, then once they have removed a few models, the Scatter laser can fire.
If I need to stay well out of 24", the single Scatter keeps the somewhat useful.

-

Thank you for the detailed explanation, and after consideration I too am starting to think a mixed build may be the way to go.

I'm planning on going with 3 units of 10-man windriders (non-uthwe for the moment). Would you suggest mixing weapons within the squads themselves, or perhaps 2 10-man scatter laser squads and 1 10-man shuriken cannon squad?

I love galef's advise most times but mixing shuriken and scatter in the same squad is a mistake. Why artificially keep yourself far inside the max laser range when you dont have to. To me you would be far better having say 2 scat packs and 1 shuriken cannon unit than mixing them all together.

Also 10 man squads is insane overkill for 1 unit for a variety of reasons including its impossible to hide the footprint of a unit that size and if ur shot at with something that forces a jink, a massive unit has massive reduction in damage output. I field my bikes in packs of 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im currently playtesting a 13 bike unit army (39 bikes). 4 from the ulthwe strikeforce, 3 more blackguardian windriders in the reborn warhost and than 6x3 windriders on bikes (wraithknight, 2 jetseers and 3 D cannon artillery round out my force). 156 s6 shots per turn and the ability to null deploy when i go second is huge

The only reason I mix them is to present the opponent an overload of similar threats. If an opponent has 1 unit that is an MC or 2+ save and you only have 1 unit with Shuricannons, you can guess which unit he'll want to target first. Likewise if the enemy army has lots of light transports, he'll likely ignore the Shuricannon units and target the Scatter laser units.
Plus, I like the look on the opponent's face when I tell him I only have 1 Scatter laser in each unit, yet still destroy his units

By mixing weapons, the enemy cannot eliminated a certain kind of threat easily.
Although I tend to do all Scatterlaser units in tourneys, the mixed squads I use in casual games seem just as successful (and way more fun)

BTW, thanks for the compliment, PyrhusOfEpirus

It sounds like your confusion with force organization centers on the formations chart in the Eldar codex, and the new (to you) detachments feature.

You're still totally allowed to use the old force org chart (one HQ and two TROOPS to start, build from there) for your army. This is considered a "Combined Arms Detachment" that gives your troops choice units the "Objective Secured" rule.

If the extra rules from the formations don't mean a lot to you, or if you find the strictures of having to take certain units to be a pain, then I would recommend starting with a Combined Arms Detachment.

As for your original question, I would echo much of what folks have already said. Both guns have superior and inferior aspects to each other, but are really quite similar. There are some opponents that the Shuriken Cannons will be better against, and some where the Scatter Lasers will be better. However, unless you're in a small meta, you don't know what you're playing against until it's game time. You really can't go but so wrong either way though. The only exception to this is if you decide to use the Windrider formation that gives Shuriken weapons in that formation shred for a turn, in which case you obviously want to use the Shurikens. If you have an aesthetic preference - I've always loved the look and fluff of Shuriken weapons personally - then go with that option. Otherwise, the above ideas of mixing them with either several different units or mixed units might work best.

It might also be worth noting that the jetbike model is pretty easy to magnetize, so that might be something to explore if you really can't decide.

I hope that helps in some way!