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Vorian wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Wonder if they are just gonna blanket release chart for a armour mod for weapons for play around with the AP system

S minus AP value might work as a modifier unless AP lower than armour in which case carry on as before.
edit: no hangon that would not work to good. ugh

As you noticed that's not good. Autocannons? -3 modifier. Power armour saves on 6+. Terminators on 5+.

This is precisely the problem you have with ASM. You pay premium for the save, then you barely use. Terminators would be even more ridiculously overpriced when even autocannons would be scything through them.

Plasma weapons would btw come entirely useless in that system. So yeah as you noticed bad idea.

AP to modifier straight works bit better but only marginally. Armour would still be useless but at least plasma etc weapons would be have use. Even if they would still be worthless barely worth extra point as autocannon would be plenty good as it is(actually autocannon would be god weapon of imperials...)

The Power Klaw in shadow wars is -3, that seems an obvious hint to the levels.

So AP 2 stuff becomes -3, AP3 to -2 and AP 4 to -1 - with some jigging about in specific circumstances?

Sounds about right to me if they go for the direct AP value conversion and ignore weapon strength. But we will still need to know what exactly the armour values will morph into.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
So as opposed to sweeping advance that removes all models, we are upset that you would lose some models?

I didn't know a Bolter round could perform a sweeping advance. That's... uh... news.

And a bolter round isn't going to kill 4 marines in one round either. Which is how many dead marines it would take in one turn (assuming current leadership values and ignoring what ATSKNF could possibly do, although it'll probably just be a reroll on battleshock) for a squad to have a 1/6 chance of losing a single marine.

People are seriously overestimating the effects of battleshock. People just seem to be really scared of AoS. Don't worry guys, the water's warm and actually quite pleasant.

The point is that comparing Battleshock to Sweeping Advance is pointless because they are applied in completely different phases. You can't Sweep advance if you're not in Close Combat, end of.

Also, have you, gosh perhaps considered that not everyone likes those waters?

 commander dante wrote:
"Thematic Armies will be Rewarded"
Well RIP CAD

Now GW is just forcing Formations down our Throat and passing it off as "Fluffy Lists"
Ruined 8th for me now
Movement values im not sure about, will probably stick with normal Movement values (Infantry move 6"...)
Charging units Strike first is big, especially for Necrons (I.E Triarch Praetorians)

Im Excited for the other changes, but not the "Rewarding Themed Armies" Bull GW is spewing

k bye

 NpSkully wrote:
Honestly battleshock and units always hitting first on the charge is trash. Battleshock applies to all wounds taken, not just im combat. You can lose 15 orks in a single shooting phase, and that unit is basically gone. Yeah Orks are gonna get helped by always hitting first, but how exactly do you plan to get there with Sigmar style leadership? Also how do guard plan to stick?

Guard and Orks would have to rely on some sort of way to mitigate battleshock damage. That said, the AoS equivalents tend to be built around using tools for just that. I would imagine Orks and Guard would function similarly, assuming GW doesn't completely screw the pooch.

Furthermore, always strokes first on ever unit?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Thunder hammers, necron lychguard, powerklaws, chainfists, STOMPAS, KHORNE D THIRSTERS, all hitting first?! How does this not break the game? If my necron warriors can rapid fire you, and then relentless charge you, it practically doubles my killing power for free. Also it makes some units like flayed ones go from crap to horribly OP. 5 attacks with shred on the charge at marine strength and ws. Like honestly, what the hell. There's a reason that initiative exists.

You're assuming melee attack profiles are going to be completely unchanged from their current form, when such a shift is likely going to require a complete overhaul of close combat rules.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
So as opposed to sweeping advance that removes all models, we are upset that you would lose some models?

I didn't know a Bolter round could perform a sweeping advance. That's... uh... news.

But it still can't.

Your bolter round kills 1 model
You roll a 6
You compare it to your low bravery score of 6 for the sake of this example
You lose 1 more model
Perhaps justify it as running away... perhaps imagine that the guy who's best friend just got shot in the intestines stops to help him up but then discovers the horrible, sucking wound and sits in helpless shock while his mate slowly dies.

There's no sweeping advance from a bolter round, just the chance for models with a poor bravery score (who already don't really fancy the fight) to die or flee faster... or models with an average/good bravery score to break when they are reduced to a fraction of their starting force.

Dr._Jim_J_Jimmy wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
"Thematic Armies will be Rewarded"
Well RIP CAD

Now GW is just forcing Formations down our Throat and passing it off as "Fluffy Lists"
Ruined 8th for me now
Movement values im not sure about, will probably stick with normal Movement values (Infantry move 6"...)
Charging units Strike first is big, especially for Necrons (I.E Triarch Praetorians)

Im Excited for the other changes, but not the "Rewarding Themed Armies" Bull GW is spewing

k bye

So glad you joined, will all your posts be of this quality? You might not agree, but that's no excuse to post like that. Pathetic.

Formations are fine, its things like free transports that ruin it.

Ideally they will AoS it in the sense they release updated rules for every army at the release of 8th, with updated rules/formations etc.

Probably just get an Errata with move values or a chart at the back of the book.

Joyboozer wrote:

Dr._Jim_J_Jimmy wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
"Thematic Armies will be Rewarded"
Well RIP CAD

Now GW is just forcing Formations down our Throat and passing it off as "Fluffy Lists"
Ruined 8th for me now
Movement values im not sure about, will probably stick with normal Movement values (Infantry move 6"...)
Charging units Strike first is big, especially for Necrons (I.E Triarch Praetorians)

Im Excited for the other changes, but not the "Rewarding Themed Armies" Bull GW is spewing

k bye

So glad you joined, will all your posts be of this quality? You might not agree, but that's no excuse to post like that. Pathetic.

To be fair, thats all a post that essentially says 'qq the very limited amount of info weve gotten so far has ruined 40k for me, i quit' deserves.

 Silentz wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
So as opposed to sweeping advance that removes all models, we are upset that you would lose some models?

I didn't know a Bolter round could perform a sweeping advance. That's... uh... news.

But it still can't.

Your bolter round kills 1 model
You roll a 6
You compare it to your low bravery score of 6 for the sake of this example
You lose 1 more model
Perhaps justify it as running away... perhaps imagine that the guy who's best friend just got shot in the intestines stops to help him up but then discovers the horrible, sucking wound and sits in helpless shock while his mate slowly dies.

There's no sweeping advance from a bolter round, just the chance for models with a poor bravery score (who already don't really fancy the fight) to die or flee faster... or models with an average/good bravery score to break when they are reduced to a fraction of their starting force.

So if you can't cause a Sweeping Advance with a bolter round, why are we comparing Battleshock to Sweeping Advances?

Wait is that the choir of "Holy GW's defence" I hear? Yep. That it is.

 Silentz wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
So as opposed to sweeping advance that removes all models, we are upset that you would lose some models?

I didn't know a Bolter round could perform a sweeping advance. That's... uh... news.

But it still can't.

Your bolter round kills 1 model
You roll a 6
You compare it to your low bravery score of 6 for the sake of this example
You lose 1 more model
Perhaps justify it as running away... perhaps imagine that the guy who's best friend just got shot in the intestines stops to help him up but then discovers the horrible, sucking wound and sits in helpless shock while his mate slowly dies.

There's no sweeping advance from a bolter round, just the chance for models with a poor bravery score (who already don't really fancy the fight) to die or flee faster... or models with an average/good bravery score to break when they are reduced to a fraction of their starting force.

Which, as has been stated many times in this thread, is still a better alternative to having an entire unit run off the board for a similarly bad roll.

Yes, it means that armies that haven't previously been vulnerable to morale might now be open to that. Which is a good thing, because it's been a completely wasted stat up until now unless you're IG. In which case you were viciously screwed.

tneva82 wrote:

It's not just -1. It's -1, -2, -3 everything so abundant. Which means that you are paying lots for armour you don't really use.

Did you ever play 2nd ed? I still play. I know exactly how useful power armour is in 2nd ed. It's to the level that only reason space marines take it because they HAVE TO. If space marines could ditch all armour and run naked for cheaper price THEY WOULD DO IT! And in a heartbeat. Extra guys are better than armour save which you often can't use or is like 5+ or 6+.

Nevermind something like 5+ save or 6+ save which is even worse than in 7th ed.

Only armour worth paying anything in 2nd ed is terminator armour. Power armour MAYBE if it's 1 pts but if you could run tactical marine naked for 25 pts rather than 30 pts guess what? Naked it is.

Yeah, 2E modifiers were way too big. Most weapons should have no modifiers. I hope it is something like: AP- to AP5 -> no modifier; AP4 -> -1 modifier; AP3 or AP2 -> -2 modifier; AP1 -3 modifier.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
- as has been said it prevents 'all or nothing' engagements,

So would allowing units to voluntarily break from combat, or creating better synergy between multiple units attacking the same enemy.

'Let's just remove more models, because they, I dunno, die of fright or something... ' might be a better system than the current one, but that doesn't make it the best alternative. Or even a good one.

The models are running away, and are thus removed.


abstraction
[ab-strak-shuh n]

noun
1.
an abstract or general idea or term.
2.
the act of considering something as a general quality or characteristic, apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances.

.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


So if you can't cause a Sweeping Advance with a bolter round, why are we comparing Battleshock to Sweeping Advances?

Because it fills the roll of sweeping advances in addition to every other form of generalized morale check in the game. Your statement is disingenuous and wilfully ignorant, you know that this is to be the case for the mechanic.

Wait is that the choir of "Holy GW's defence" I hear? Yep. That it is.

I've been as cynical about the state of GW in the past as it gets. 40k as it is is not a fun game, and has not been a fun game for the greater part of a decade now. But it's not a matter of sides, its a matter of acknowledging inklings of competence and what could potentially be very good decisions for the game.

Maybe changing how modifiers and weapons work could make bolters not awful for once.

Probably not, but i can dream right?

If AP4 is -1 then a vast swathe of weapons in 40k became viable again.

 Mymearan wrote:

 yakface wrote:

Well, the more they are willing to blow up the existing 40k rules to pieces and completely start over to make something much, much more simple, the more I'd personally be happy (its likely the only way I'd start playing again).

These rumors kind of sound like that's the direction they might be headed, except there are a few things that concern me:

Movement
We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.

No more unit types? Every unit should have bespoke rules? That doesn't necessarily sound like simplicity, nor does it sound like much fun. Also, why do they think this would mean you only need to learn the rules for your models? Do they not think players like to easily understand what their opponent's units might be able to do?

My other concern is: they've put out so, so many rules books at a huge premium price over the last few years. Are they really going to be able to ditch them all without completely pissing off those players who bought them all? WHFB when it went the way of the dodo didn't have nearly the $ amount associated with owning the full rules set like 40K does. And if they aren't willing to scrap all those codexes and supplements, then the only thing these new rules are going to to do is add even more bloat into the game.

I'm hopeful, given the fact that everything GW does recently seems to be on the right track, but still worried...

AoS has bespoke rules for every unit. It has one universal special rule: Flying. That's it. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but personally I think the positives outweigh the negatives. It means that everything you need to play a unit is contained on a single page. This is HUGE. No referencing the rule book, your codex, your campaign book, your dataslates, your White Dwarf... you get the point. Unit types in 40k complicate the game unnecessarily because there are so many rules associated with each unit type, and suddenly you have even more places you need to check to find the rules for a certain model. The one issue it has in AoS is that similar rules might have slightly different wording on different Warscrolls leading to some confusion on how it's supposed to work, but it hasn't been a huge problem so far.

Never got that line of thinking, to me having to learn a card for every one of your units is far more cumbersome than having about 8 units types with specific rules (a bit more if you include flying and gargantuan creature, but these shoul only be used by veteran players imo).

As for the new rules preview, I'm not necessarily against them (or for them for that matter) except for battle shock which is a really poor representation of morale imo. Still, they definitively give the vibe that 8th edition will be AoSified, which probably means my day's of 40k are reaching its end :(

tneva82 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

"Die of fright"? It's called fleeing, and it happens in battle.

No, fleeing is represented in a tabletop game by having the models move away from the enemy.

Unless every model is equipped with a personal teleport solely for use when they get scared, having the models just disappear is a poor way to represent running from the battle.

Fleeing is represented in some tabletop games by having the models move away from the enemy. In others, it's represented by removing models that are unlikely to have a further effect on the battle. 40k has both variants, and AoS only the latter. Models who perform an orderly retreat from combat may do so in AoS and will not be removed. As for the "personal teleport" comment, I'm sure you are aware that tabletop games are abstractions and not simulations of reality, and that almost any mechanic in any game could be similarly ridiculed.

You realize voluntarily retreating from battle is NOT exactly good way to represent guys losing nerve and running away to regroup later? That's player deciding. In other words your troops would only get scared WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT TO THE PLAYER!

However in reality morale doesn't work only when it's convenient to commander. Troops flee and regroup based on, funny that, emotions which commander can't dictate. Troopers are(in even 9in 40k mostly) not robots.

You misunderstood my comment. Retreating does not represent running away. It represents retreating. Battleshock represents what you call "emotions which commander can't dictate". Having both things in the game is good.

Umbros wrote:


Firstly, it is telling that you criticise a concept without having a grasp on how it works in AoS.

Well, yes. It should tell you that I don't play AoS, for starters.

I checked out the AoS rules when it was first released. That told me that it wasn't a game that I had any interest in playing, and I moved on.

So yes, I'm somewhat critical of seeing concepts from AoS appearing on 40k. If 8th edition turns out to be fantastic despite heavy cribbing from AoS, I'll be more than happy to accept that I was wrong.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I'm cautiously optimistic about the command points for thematic armies, but it's the kind of thing that could be executed poorly.

We've kind of got that already (and indeed executed poorly). What will be interesting is if GW attempts any kind of balance between them now that they've acknowledged match play is a thing
I hope GW either bins or re-jigs all the existing formations and detachments and gives away the new/modified ones for free with the launch of 8th

 NpSkully wrote:
Honestly battleshock and units always hitting first on the charge is trash. Battleshock applies to all wounds taken, not just im combat. You can lose 15 orks in a single shooting phase, and that unit is basically gone. Yeah Orks are gonna get helped by always hitting first, but how exactly do you plan to get there with Sigmar style leadership? Also how do guard plan to stick?
Furthermore, always strikes first on every unit?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Thunder hammers, necron lychguard, powerklaws, chainfists, STOMPAS, KHORNE D THIRSTERS, all hitting first?! How does this not break the game? If my necron warriors can rapid fire you, and then relentless charge you, it practically doubles my killing power for free. Also it makes some units like flayed ones go from crap to horribly OP. 5 attacks with shred on the charge at marine strength and ws. Like honestly, what the hell. There's a reason that initiative exists.

So just because they mentioned hitting first after a charge, you asume there won't be an exceptions to the rule. In the old fantasy, the're already was a always strike first when charging rule, but when you had always strike last you would strike on i. So I would wait until we know the full rules with the exceptions

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
In the current AOS system they mitigated this by having terminator role units just have multi wounds. All this jumping to conclusions with out the full picture is ridiculous. For all we know invulnerable saves will stack on top of armour saves,most high armour save models will get extra wounds or rules like lizardmen were they ignore anything below -2 rend. So lets not make sweeping judgments without looking at the possibilitys.

But again that's not solving the issue. As you said they added wounds. but guess what would be even better for terminators then? No armour and lesser price! The armour is so meaningless that they need more wounds to be survivable. But funny thing is they would be even MORE survivable running around but naked as you could have more of them without actually dying any less.

 Fafnir wrote:

 NpSkully wrote:
Honestly battleshock and units always hitting first on the charge is trash. Battleshock applies to all wounds taken, not just im combat. You can lose 15 orks in a single shooting phase, and that unit is basically gone. Yeah Orks are gonna get helped by always hitting first, but how exactly do you plan to get there with Sigmar style leadership? Also how do guard plan to stick?

Guard and Orks would have to rely on some sort of way to mitigate battleshock damage. That said, the AoS equivalents tend to be built around using tools for just that. I would imagine Orks and Guard would function similarly, assuming GW doesn't completely screw the pooch.

Furthermore, always strokes first on ever unit?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Thunder hammers, necron lychguard, powerklaws, chainfists, STOMPAS, KHORNE D THIRSTERS, all hitting first?! How does this not break the game? If my necron warriors can rapid fire you, and then relentless charge you, it practically doubles my killing power for free. Also it makes some units like flayed ones go from crap to horribly OP. 5 attacks with shred on the charge at marine strength and ws. Like honestly, what the hell. There's a reason that initiative exists.

You're assuming melee attack profiles are going to be completely unchanged from their current form, when such a shift is likely going to require a complete overhaul of close combat rules.

Which is not something they'll be able to do. Unless they literally Age of Sigmar warscroll the whole thing, we will have to deal with YEARS of codex creep before these issues are resolved. So, either we have rushed army rules, or incompatible gameplay mechanics. You pick


Automatically Appended Next Post:

terry wrote:

 NpSkully wrote:
Honestly battleshock and units always hitting first on the charge is trash. Battleshock applies to all wounds taken, not just im combat. You can lose 15 orks in a single shooting phase, and that unit is basically gone. Yeah Orks are gonna get helped by always hitting first, but how exactly do you plan to get there with Sigmar style leadership? Also how do guard plan to stick?
Furthermore, always strikes first on every unit?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Thunder hammers, necron lychguard, powerklaws, chainfists, STOMPAS, KHORNE D THIRSTERS, all hitting first?! How does this not break the game? If my necron warriors can rapid fire you, and then relentless charge you, it practically doubles my killing power for free. Also it makes some units like flayed ones go from crap to horribly OP. 5 attacks with shred on the charge at marine strength and ws. Like honestly, what the hell. There's a reason that initiative exists.

So just because they mentioned hitting first after a charge, you asume there won't be an exceptions to the rule. In the old fantasy, the're already was a always strike first when charging rule, but when you had always strike last you would strike on i. So I would wait until we know the full rules with the exceptions

Always strikes first was a rule that did not apply to all units. As a fantasy player for 3 years, I would know.

Didn't GW run the commands point system in one of the recent Throne of Skulls events or twitch streams?

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

It's not just -1. It's -1, -2, -3 everything so abundant. Which means that you are paying lots for armour you don't really use.

Did you ever play 2nd ed? I still play. I know exactly how useful power armour is in 2nd ed. It's to the level that only reason space marines take it because they HAVE TO. If space marines could ditch all armour and run naked for cheaper price THEY WOULD DO IT! And in a heartbeat. Extra guys are better than armour save which you often can't use or is like 5+ or 6+.

Nevermind something like 5+ save or 6+ save which is even worse than in 7th ed.

Only armour worth paying anything in 2nd ed is terminator armour. Power armour MAYBE if it's 1 pts but if you could run tactical marine naked for 25 pts rather than 30 pts guess what? Naked it is.

Yeah, 2E modifiers were way too big. Most weapons should have no modifiers. I hope it is something like: AP- to AP5 -> no modifier; AP4 -> -1 modifier; AP3 or AP2 -> -2 modifier; AP1 -3 modifier.

This is how AoS works. Rend is for very powerful (2-handed/magical etc) weapons only. Conversely, armour saves are usually worse than in 40k. A Chaos Warrior has a 4+ save, and only powerful generals have a 3+. I don't think any model in the game has a 2+.

 Mymearan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

"Die of fright"? It's called fleeing, and it happens in battle.

No, fleeing is represented in a tabletop game by having the models move away from the enemy.

Unless every model is equipped with a personal teleport solely for use when they get scared, having the models just disappear is a poor way to represent running from the battle.

Fleeing is represented in some tabletop games by having the models move away from the enemy. In others, it's represented by removing models that are unlikely to have a further effect on the battle. 40k has both variants, and AoS only the latter. Models who perform an orderly retreat from combat may do so in AoS and will not be removed. As for the "personal teleport" comment, I'm sure you are aware that tabletop games are abstractions and not simulations of reality, and that almost any mechanic in any game could be similarly ridiculed.

You realize voluntarily retreating from battle is NOT exactly good way to represent guys losing nerve and running away to regroup later? That's player deciding. In other words your troops would only get scared WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT TO THE PLAYER!

However in reality morale doesn't work only when it's convenient to commander. Troops flee and regroup based on, funny that, emotions which commander can't dictate. Troopers are(in even 9in 40k mostly) not robots.

You misunderstood my comment. Retreating does not represent running away. It represents retreating. Battleshock represents what you call "emotions which commander can't dictate". Having both things in the game is good.

You also don't see American marines running away and deserting one by one the second they get shot at or lose casualties. Under this logic of gameplay, the Normandy beach landing would've been a disaster, with men fleeing machine gun fire left and right. This is a dumb argument to make.

Since forgeworld I belive has said they will adopt any new rules GW puts out how will these rules effect the horus heresy game ? I mean I just spent $140 canadien on inferno and it's going to suck knowing that book will be compleatly useless ...

 Crazyterran wrote:
Formations are fine, its things like free transports that ruin it.

Ideally they will AoS it in the sense they release updated rules for every army at the release of 8th, with updated rules/formations etc.

Probably just get an Errata with move values or a chart at the back of the book.

Joyboozer wrote:

Dr._Jim_J_Jimmy wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
"Thematic Armies will be Rewarded"
Well RIP CAD

Now GW is just forcing Formations down our Throat and passing it off as "Fluffy Lists"
Ruined 8th for me now
Movement values im not sure about, will probably stick with normal Movement values (Infantry move 6"...)
Charging units Strike first is big, especially for Necrons (I.E Triarch Praetorians)

Im Excited for the other changes, but not the "Rewarding Themed Armies" Bull GW is spewing

k bye

So glad you joined, will all your posts be of this quality? You might not agree, but that's no excuse to post like that. Pathetic.

To be fair, thats all a post that essentially says 'qq the very limited amount of info weve gotten so far has ruined 40k for me, i quit' deserves.

I never said i would quit
I said it has ruined 8th for me
I completely DESPISE Formations

 NpSkully wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

"Die of fright"? It's called fleeing, and it happens in battle.

No, fleeing is represented in a tabletop game by having the models move away from the enemy.

Unless every model is equipped with a personal teleport solely for use when they get scared, having the models just disappear is a poor way to represent running from the battle.

Fleeing is represented in some tabletop games by having the models move away from the enemy. In others, it's represented by removing models that are unlikely to have a further effect on the battle. 40k has both variants, and AoS only the latter. Models who perform an orderly retreat from combat may do so in AoS and will not be removed. As for the "personal teleport" comment, I'm sure you are aware that tabletop games are abstractions and not simulations of reality, and that almost any mechanic in any game could be similarly ridiculed.

You realize voluntarily retreating from battle is NOT exactly good way to represent guys losing nerve and running away to regroup later? That's player deciding. In other words your troops would only get scared WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT TO THE PLAYER!

However in reality morale doesn't work only when it's convenient to commander. Troops flee and regroup based on, funny that, emotions which commander can't dictate. Troopers are(in even 9in 40k mostly) not robots.

You misunderstood my comment. Retreating does not represent running away. It represents retreating. Battleshock represents what you call "emotions which commander can't dictate". Having both things in the game is good.

You also don't see American marines running away and deserting one by one the second they get shot at or lose casualties. Under this logic of gameplay, the Normandy beach landing would've been a disaster, with men fleeing machine gun fire left and right. This is a dumb argument to make.

Soldiers don't always run away one by one, but neither do they all magically run away at the exact same time, only to regroup to full fighting capacity minutes later. Both are extreme abstractions. Personally I prefer pinning to fleeing anyway, like in Bolt Action. Reduced fighting capacity while under heavy fire is both thematic and tactically rewarding. Might be hard to fit into 40k though, since this isn't WW2 but instead tank-armoured supermen fighting unfeeling purple horrors from another galaxy or green football hooligans. Although it worked in Epic.

AP is all or nothing. Save Mod is more granular and allows more things to take on armoured targets effectively. They both abstract the same concept in different ways. If Space Marines are hurt the most by a shift to Save Mods I won't be shedding any tears, to be honest. Most armies' Armour is already worth squat, whatever edition you play, and bodies > armour holds true through the ages too. Plus ca change.

 NpSkully wrote:

You also don't see American marines running away and deserting one by one the second they get shot at or lose casualties. Under this logic of gameplay, the Normandy beach landing would've been a disaster, with men fleeing machine gun fire left and right. This is a dumb argument to make.

Speaking of dumb arguments...

Perhaps American marines have a ld10? or 12? or are immune to battleshock? There's lots of ways to represent and elite fighting force where people don't run off, it's a game after all as rules can be written based on individual units.

So I played 1 round/turn of shadowspire after the event last night. I worked all day, drove through Heavy traffic to get my buddy from O'Hare,, and had not eaten for 10 hours at the point, so I was tired and hungry. I was not terribly focused on the game. Just so you know where I was.

The minis were decent for push pin style minis (starter box minis). They said in the announcement there would be more factions and add-ons; they were not sure about more boards. There were apparently a lot more board options in the box.

You get 4 activations per turn. You drew 5 action/upgrade cards and 3 victory cards. The mechanics were I activate a dude, I can play a card to buff it or weaken yours, and you can retaliate with a card. I can then move, attack something next to me, or charge something (move and attack). If you charge, then that mini is done. If you move or hit, you can keep using that dude. Some have more attacks, some have more health, some do more damage, and some move further. There were other rules that we did 't bother with in the demo, too. There were also victory cards. For example, after the round, if you had a dude stand on an objective, you got a coin. You could use that to buy an upgrade card like +1 defense or heal 3 wounds or something.

There were stat cards for your dudes. Normal mode is how you start. If you "power up" and go "super Scion" or whatever the nerd behind me kept saying, you flipped the card. The other side had more attacks or sounds or some other benefits. I was unclear on that mechanic. Expansions could have more factions, cards, boards, and other stuff.

All in all, it looked like a brutal game. The guys next to us killed at least 2 of each other's dudes. Only 1 of my guys died in the round.


Also, guess who my instructor was!

 Mymearan wrote:
You misunderstood my comment. Retreating does not represent running away. It represents retreating. Battleshock represents what you call "emotions which commander can't dictate". Having both things in the game is good.

But again battleshock does not represents troops getting temporarily scared which is required for morale system to make sense. Troopers don't either operate like robots EXACTLY as commander wants or vanish to thin air.

Just look at real world wars. Guys don't operate as robots or vanish to thin air. Guys get scared and retreat to safer position to regroup.

In AOS that's not what happens. Either troopers vanish to thin air never to be seen again or they operate EXACTLY AS COMMANDER WANTS.

Either way bad system.