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Just going to add one bit of info: In an interview with Jervis Johnson (HeelanHammer last December), Jervis mentioned the hardest part in developing the AoS rules was the commandment from on high to fit the rules on four A4 sheets. That was likely a Kirby Co. dictate and might not be present in 40K. So we might get a bit more crunch in the 40K rules then was allowed in AoS originally.

Other big question is if the rules will be free or not? That is another point that was not mentioned in the seminar. 40k 8th may suffer if they force another $80 book on us. The easy accessibility of the rules and units helps AoS a lot.

 davou wrote:
. Things are even worse if you're not dealing with a problem that originates in a codex, but rather one that comes from the BRB. In order to fix walkers, they've gotta wait for the edition to switch..

No, they don't.

They didn't wait for a new edition to fix vehicles and the assault rules in 3rd edition... And getting revised rules out to players is even easier now than it was then.


Having said that, I agree in principle that having warscroll-style rules rather than codexes would be a good step... Just not at the expense of consistent, universal rules.

 streetsamurai wrote:


random rantings of mallninja

meh, never mind

 Peregrine wrote:

This is terrible design. Frequent major changes like that means that the game designer is doing a job of developing the product before publication, and it imposes a huge burden on the players to keep track of all the weekly changes.

I certainly expect any competent designer to be able to product the game without just vomiting words into some rule-set, but the reality is no amount of planning or prep can account for the ways nerds at large will find to break things. Breaking the rules up into unit specific things allows them to fix broken elements without Rube Goldberging some other part of the game into a new worse problem.

and really? A huge burden? Free rules updates that address something broken, dysfunctional are a burden? C'mon man, people devour FAQ when they leak and it generates a huge amount of excitement. Updates addressing problems will be a treat to everyone, and they will become less and less frequent as time passes because the problems will have been addressed without needing to knock some other working part of the game out of place just because they were tangentially related though the rules.

Not once have I EVER seen someone not know about some rule or an faq be presented with it and exclaim "God this is such a burden!"

Ok setting aside my opinion on AoS I just don't really get why they would AoS 40k.

Why have 2 effectively identical games just 1 fantasy and 1 sci-fi'ish.

I get why marines were ported over to fantasy and why AoS is a thing.
I mean yes it makes it easier to sell to little timmy with his sigmarine army that the rules are the same and he just needs to spend another £500+ and he can jump right in.(Oh theres a thought maybe the new bigger marines are so little timmy does not get sigmarine envy when his new 40k marines are tiny)

But even with GW's new sunny financials I cannot see the risk v reward being great enough to warrent for that reason alone.

I know some people think that it is because they see the issues with 40k rules, but again rowntree or not GW do not care about the rules they are still the last thing produced in GW's workflow. Ok well they do care but only that they are bringing in revenue not if there gak or not.

I mean I would not rule out laziness/cheapness 1 rules system needs a lot less man power to maintain as all future updates can be done in parallel. Combine that with no codex cycle and player created and managed faq's and there could be a spike in unemployment in nottingham.

The other thing is what happens with exisiting armies so far in 2 years aos has had 2 full armies, 1 half army and a few scraps produced with a 3rd full army being released soon.

So assuming they don't squat any armies and that gullimarines are real any issues with existing armies ported over might get looked at by 2021.

ON an unrelated note; does anyone here from the old-school recall what movement looked like for iconic units?

How fast were marine bikes and ork bikes? How fast were rhinos compared to IG tanks? How far could a marine walk vs an gaunt?

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
How are all-bike White Scars un-fluffy? :/. Fast attack is their thing.

You know what's the REAL core of white scars?

Tactical marines. In rhino's or drop pods. Not bikes.

You can have fast attack without all bikes you know. And fluffwise tactical marines would be the most common white scar you see.

But seen much tactical marines in white scar armies lately? Nope. Cause GW doesn't reward fluffy armies.

And problem with formations is same. They aren't there for fluff. They are there to sell you more models. Buy 3 riptides for big balance! Or take this formation and get lots of free stuff so you need to buy 10 30€ models!

Tactical Marines are literally all you see because of Gladius. Did you even think before you posted?

Enjoy.

You will find it especially enlightening if you read the Chapter Organisation and Post heresy Chapter Combat Doctrine.

Read that before you go accusing people, mkay?

That literally had nothing to do with what I said. And no, Bikers are most certainly a White Scars stereotype.

Also the Wikia is garbage and Lexi is a lot better.

 Peregrine wrote:

 davou wrote:
ONLY a problem if they let problem armies sit too long without a fix.

No, it's a problem, period..

It's odd to say "period" when implying it's a finalized statement... when there is more to follow your statement.

"No, it's a problem , \f" doesn't work as well I guess.

I'm really looking forward to all these changes and new things, I'm feeling enthusiastic about my hobby again!

Just a thought on save modifiers and not sure if anything has mentioned/suggested it (there's a lot of pages, I was at work when this thread got going and you all keep increasing the page count and I'm too hungry to finish reading ) but what if GW took a leaf from Battle of Prospero and used larger sided dice (D8, D10, D12 etc) for saves? You've got your usual save modifiers but the bigger/better your armour the better the dice you roll? Orks and Guard get a D6 for their flak armour, maybe Space Marines in Power Armour get a boost and get a 3+ save on a D8 or even a D10? Get hit by a lascannon and an impressive -6 modifier, there's still a tiny chance it could just wing the target (well, maim)? Terminators and equivalent walk around with a D12 save and so on.

I'll guess we'll find out soon enough

LordShaft.

 davou wrote:
ON an unrelated note; does anyone here from the old-school recall what movement looked like for iconic units?

How fast were marine bikes and ork bikes? How fast were rhinos compared to IG tanks? How far could a marine walk vs an gaunt?

Bikes were vehicles, and vehicles had speed bands which dictated min and max move, number and degree of turns. You could change speed band once each turn, and I don't recall overwhelming differences between vehicles of similar types.

M was largely faction related, 4" was normal, with 5 or 6" used for some faster races or unit types.

Squats might have been 3"?

You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

Edited

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm a big AoS fan but. Where its everybody getting those ultra precise revenues and economicals reports of GW?

Last I saw, they never put clearly how many money X game give them.

I remember Hasting (If I'm not remembering wrong) saying that in the beginning AoS was a fail but after the General Handbook droped, the sales have growing exponentially and now its surpases Warhammer Fantasy many times.

I don't think AoS its outselling Fantasy in his golden years but I don't know.

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm pretty sure that "40%" thing has been discredited?

Either way, one doesn't express sales in term of profit, it would be 40% of revenue, but considering the number of kits, probably also represents a significant expenditure too.

 Galas wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm a big AoS fan but. Where its everybody getting those ultra precise revenues and economicals reports of GW?

Last I saw, they never put clearly how many money X game give them.

I remember Hasting (If I'm not remembering wrong) saying that in the beginning AoS was a fail but after the General Handbook droped, the sales have growing exponentially and now its surpases Warhammer Fantasy many times.

I don't think AoS its outselling Fantasy in his golden years but I don't know.

I say that, because a buddy of mine is a manager at a local GW store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm pretty sure that "40%" thing has been discredited?

Either way, one doesn't express sales in term of profit, it would be 40% of revenue, but considering the number of kits, probably also represents a significant expenditure too.

Yeah you right. Revenue mb

SeanDrake wrote:

Why have 2 effectively identical games just 1 fantasy and 1 sci-fi'ish..

It worked in the '90s...

Up until 3rd edition 40K/6th edition Fantasy, they were functionally the same game with just some minor differences to account for things like Fantasy revolving around ranked units. You could fight 40K armies up against Fantasy armies with very minor tweaking of the base rules. Even the Magic/Psychic systems were the same, just with different names on the 'power' cards.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to go back to that, of course... Just that it's not necessarily a bad idea to double down on a system that is popular.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 davou wrote:
ON an unrelated note; does anyone here from the old-school recall what movement looked like for iconic units?

How fast were marine bikes and ork bikes? How fast were rhinos compared to IG tanks? How far could a marine walk vs an gaunt?

Bikes were vehicles, and vehicles had speed bands which dictated min and max move, number and degree of turns. You could change speed band once each turn, and I don't recall overwhelming differences between vehicles of similar types.

M was largely faction related, 4" was normal, with 5 or 6" used for some faster races or unit types.

Squats might have been 3"?

Yeah, Humans (including Marines) were 4", Squats were 3", Eldar varied between 4 and 6 (maybe 7?) depending on unit type. Vehicles were fast.

I would quite like it to be a quick change, easily worked out in game.

So AP1 is minus 6 to your save, AP2 is minus 5 to your save, AP3 is minus 4, etc.

That way a marine is not getting a save from a lascannon, is getting hurt but not auto kiled by a heavy bolter and small arms fire can negate light armour still.

At the higher armour level it works well and most armour in the game in the 5+ or 6+ variety doesn't save you most of the time any way so it should work out.

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

Any citation for any of the financial part of that? because I still sometimes at night hear my local GW store manager crying over his AoS sales targets when I go to sleep. No man should be made to cry over toy soldiers. Actually 3 managers really although the Hobbit was partly responsible for the 1st.

As for the other bits let's say I agree that it's insanely easy to get into(so are prison,debt and drugs still not a good idea) and leave it at that.

SeanDrake wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

Any citation for any of the financial part of that? because I still sometimes at night hear my local GW store manager crying over his AoS sales targets when I go to sleep. No man should be made to cry over toy soldiers. Actually 3 managers really although the Hobbit was partly responsible for the 1st.

As for the other bits let's say I agree that it's insanely easy to get into(so are prison,debt and drugs still not a good idea) and leave it at that.

Comparing a tabletop game with prison.....

People compare models with drugs all the time, no great leap.

Kijamon wrote:
I would quite like it to be a quick change, easily worked out in game.

So AP1 is minus 6 to your save, AP2 is minus 5 to your save, AP3 is minus 4, etc.

That way a marine is not getting a save from a lascannon, is getting hurt but not auto kiled by a heavy bolter and small arms fire can negate light armour still.

At the higher armour level it works well and most armour in the game in the 5+ or 6+ variety doesn't save you most of the time any way so it should work out.

that would just leave the problem we have now or massed small arms fire being the best way to kill armored units like terminators.

 Azreal13 wrote:
People compare models with drugs all the time, no great leap.

#PlasticCrack

It's no laughing matter....

 Azreal13 wrote:
People compare models with drugs all the time, no great leap.

Plastic crack its a real addiction officialized by the Mundial Miniatures Healt Organisation.

Please don't joke with that.

EDIT: Dammit somebody was faster than me

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
People compare models with drugs all the time, no great leap.

Plastic crack its a real addiction officialized by the Mundial Miniatures Healt Organisation.

Please don't joke with that.

EDIT: Dammit somebody was faster than me

My brother

Honestly?
I would far rather see:
AP1: -3 to your save
AP2-3: -2 to your Save
AP 4-5: -1 to your Save
AP 6 or "-": -0 to your Save.

A Marine getting hit by a Lascannon, now, is just dead as long as it wounds and he has no Cover Save and the Lascannon was probably considered a waste of points anyway--especially since if that one Lascannon fired at its max range the rest of the unit it was in is likely doing nothing but still "shot".

A 48" Attack 1 Hits on 3+, Wounds on 2+ Rend -2 with Damage 3 Lascannon? That's a totally different beast.
Especially if it gets something like "To Wound rolls of 6 cause unsaveable Wounds"--which are a thing in AoS.

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'd ask you for a source but it's rather obvious you're inventing 'facts'

 davou wrote:
I certainly expect any competent designer to be able to product the game without just vomiting words into some rule-set, but the reality is no amount of planning or prep can account for the ways nerds at large will find to break things. Breaking the rules up into unit specific things allows them to fix broken elements without Rube Goldberging some other part of the game into a new worse problem.

Nope. X-Wing, MTG, etc, function with very limited errata after publication. And a big part of that is the fact that they build consistent core rules that everything can reference instead of making each unit have its own special snowflake rules.

and really? A huge burden? Free rules updates that address something broken, dysfunctional are a burden?

No, frequent major updates are a problem. Having a "terminators are -5 points per model" kind of update once every few months for a handful of units is ok, and how it works in other games. Having your example of "terminators get two re-rolls" followed by "no, now they get one re-roll" a week later is not. Players have to change their armies and strategies, people forget that a rule just changed, etc. People still get confused over things like blast weapons hitting every level in a ruin in 7th because the concept of "levels" in a ruin in previous editions no longer exists, and they expect it to still work the same way. And you're talking about having that kind of confusion introduced weekly, across the entire game.

stewe128 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm a big AoS fan but. Where its everybody getting those ultra precise revenues and economicals reports of GW?

Last I saw, they never put clearly how many money X game give them.

I remember Hasting (If I'm not remembering wrong) saying that in the beginning AoS was a fail but after the General Handbook droped, the sales have growing exponentially and now its surpases Warhammer Fantasy many times.

I don't think AoS its outselling Fantasy in his golden years but I don't know.

I say that, because a buddy of mine is a manager at a local GW store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm pretty sure that "40%" thing has been discredited?

Either way, one doesn't express sales in term of profit, it would be 40% of revenue, but considering the number of kits, probably also represents a significant expenditure too.

Yeah you right. Revenue mb

ho, so your frien that is a local manager at a GW store has access to the sales charts of GW as a whole !!!!????

Kids nowadays, so naive

 streetsamurai wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'd ask you for a source but it's rather obvious you're inventing 'facts'

Balloons. First it was 30, then 35, then 40. I expect AOS to be 90% of income by the end of the year.

I think NOW AoS may be around 30-35. But have doubts it was so much back then and if so it was mainly due to the lack of new releases. for 40k decreasing its incomes.

 streetsamurai wrote:

stewe128 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm a big AoS fan but. Where its everybody getting those ultra precise revenues and economicals reports of GW?

Last I saw, they never put clearly how many money X game give them.

I remember Hasting (If I'm not remembering wrong) saying that in the beginning AoS was a fail but after the General Handbook droped, the sales have growing exponentially and now its surpases Warhammer Fantasy many times.

I don't think AoS its outselling Fantasy in his golden years but I don't know.

I say that, because a buddy of mine is a manager at a local GW store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
You know why they're sigmarizing 40k. Just in the past couple years AoS is 40% of GW's profit. It's relaxed, fun, and insanely easy to get into. It's also deceptively in-depth as well. 40k sigmarized will bring more of the dough a business wants IMO, and more people into the hobby as well.

I'm pretty sure that "40%" thing has been discredited?

Either way, one doesn't express sales in term of profit, it would be 40% of revenue, but considering the number of kits, probably also represents a significant expenditure too.

Yeah you right. Revenue mb

ho, so your frien that is a local manager at a GW store has access to the sales charts of GW as a whole !!!!????

Kids nowadays, so naive

Lol stay mad, but honestly it doesn't matter I just wanna have some fun with the new edition. I notice you're sweating a bit wipe some of that off the brow