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So this video came up in another thread:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQOOoTt1JDI

How many players on here neglect to buy the stim injector for Riptides and how many nova their weapons turn after turn? This is NOT the way they are used in my meta. Is there something magical I'm missing about tournaments? I don't get it and want to understand. Obviously, T6 W5 2+/5++ is basically identical to a dreadknight and far from impossible to deal with.

I went to the las vegas open, and I fought tau twice, and both players ran a riptide wing and nova charged their weapons every single turn. were running heavy burst cannons, for the most part, just for the hail of rending shots.

I don't know if they had stim injectors, as I didn't put a wound on a single one, but yeah, they're pretty high on the list of support system must-takes, especially for the risks of nova charging.

Most common support systems I see are stim and early warning override, with the skyfire one sometimes used. Never seen a support system outside of those 3.

Never take a riptide without the Stims.

Don't always nova the main weapon. Last game I played I was mainly ripple firing SMS.

So..... did this guy have no idea what he was doing then? Or is there some Tau philosophy I'm getting no exposure to?

I just watched the intro with the list load out.

That list - is impossible to run at 1850pts if the riptides had Stims (FNP).

Stims cost 7 melta bombs. for 5 riptides, thats almost the cost of another riptide.

Riptide wing, if they are close to each other lets them reroll failed nova reactor tests so the need for stims to save you from taking a wound is reduced.

He also took the win as 1 unit of 3 and 2 units of 1. So that unit of 3 gets fire team rule they become BS4. And because he took them in a squad of 3 he had to use the 2nd wargear hardpoint for target locks on 2 of them. The first hardpoint was dedicated to EWO (interceptor).

He also opts for the short range D gun on the Stormsurge, because he probably was going to run it around, making the 10 meltabomb costing shield generator upgrade mandatory.

Nova charging is a must with the Heavy burst cannon. 36" S6 AP4, Heavy 12 Rending, Gets Hot. is brutal.
He has 4 units that do that per turn.

Also he opts for the drone net formation which is beyond good. each riptide has interceptor as do the drones. That's about as alpha strike proof as you can get. But that formation is not cheap. again eats into the ability to buy FNP.

Burst cannon tides have to nova every turn - when it comes to ion tides - I only Nova to get a 3++ if I am going into CC - or if I want to ripple fire my meltas (often after intercepting with the ion - this is an obvious choice) or in the rare chance I can direct hit with an Ion nova vs multiple vehicles.

When it comes to FNP - it's auto include until the end of the list - if it's the difference between another unit I'll remove FNP an Ion tide (because they don't need it 90% of the time). ESP if I have 2 SS - with 2 SS out there you are happy when people shoot at your riptides so it's kinda a bait in that case.

To answer your question Martel -
FNP is often dropped so you can include more marker lights.

after riptidewing and a 2 SS CAD you don't really have a lot of points for your drone net.

So, it's not worth dropping a single riptide to pimp out your others? And get more marker lights maybe?

Martel732 wrote:
So, it's not worth dropping a single riptide to pimp out your others? And get more marker lights maybe?

Tidewing requires 3 riptides. It gives you the ability to shoot twice if you don't move though which is a real deal breaker. You also get to reroll your nova. This makes Burst tides a good choice - it's great for ions too though. IMO it's better with ion because often you ahve to run 1 or 2 without FNP but they have the range to deal with it.

Most the lists I make I'd be happier with 2 ritpides over 3 (and theyd have FNP). It would allow me to include some other units in the list - at competitive though - riptidewing and double SS is too good to pass up.

There's lots of good reasons.

1) Riptides die instantly to weapons and effects that cancel FNP and multiple wounds.
2) If the Riptide is being ignored, the FNP does absolutely nothing.
3) It's better to have an extra unit for board control and playing to the mission.
4) Cheaper Riptides = better at targeting MSU.

There's lots of reasons really. There were two Riptide Wings in the LVO top 8. You should note that neither had FNP.

How often did they nova their shield? Any idea?

Yeah, this 40k edition is suited for spamming units rather than taking a lot of upgrades, unless you run some deathstars. 5-6 cheap riptides (two wings?? oh man...), plus all their other stuff, are a pain to deal with. You can tarpit or kill in assault 1-2 of them but that many? I usually play MSU style and cheap riptdies can kill my units as well as the best ones, that's why I prefer facing 3 expensive riptides rather than 5 cheap ones. Still far from SM and eldar top levels but certainly not easy to deal with.

I practically never bring stims for exactly the reasons expressed above 35 points per adds up quickly. bringing as a unit to get base bs4 is huge, so 2 run target locks, and the 3rd MIGHT have stims, or Velocity tracker for selective skyfire. And honestly, they are sufficiently tough enough outside of CC to just slightly rotate their models around.

Every stim is a crisis suit with a single melta, or burst cannon and flamer, or just a large number of other options.

Interesting, because I'm pretty convinced through painful, painful experience that the stim injector is severely undercosted.

Vs AP2 you go from 33% mitigation to 55%, taking us from 7.5 dark lance wounds to kill to 11.3 dark lance wounds. That's with no nova shield.

Vs everything else you go from 83% to 89% which actually increases the fire needed from 30 wounds to 45 wounds.

Martel732 wrote:
Interesting, because I'm pretty convinced through painful, painful experience that the stim injector is severely undercosted.

Vs AP2 you go from 33% mitigation to 55%, taking us from 7.5 dark lance wounds to kill to 11.3 dark lance wounds. That's with no nova shield.

Vs everything else you go from 83% to 89% which actually increases the fire needed from 30 wounds to 45 wounds.

Yeah, but by having more parts/threats/scoring units to my army, and being able to rotate between 15 wounds on the 3 models being "closest," its not often necessary. It is nice, but so is are 3 ob sec naked crisis suits scoring objectives for losing to stims.

That said, i am not a WAAC player, tournament list building emphasizes all the wrong parts of the game. I will play people who want to, with stronger lists, but the most fun i've had in the last 2 years of playing is bringing de-optimized lists, super overcosted special weapons on pathfinders, vespids etc, versus other de-optimized lists, and all of a sudden it is a super balanced game again. (ok probably not balanced, but those games the "winner" goes back and forth each turn and the games are close, not just an alpha strike and win game)

55% 45% imbalance is far less noticeable than 75% 25% imbalance.

The squad scheme is effective, but there is the chance that one dying morale breaks the other two.

That's why I quickly learned the shielded missile drones or more liability than friend.

It's a risk, but one that bs4 base more than makes up for in my opinion. Turn 3 when 1 dies, i've increased my damage/potency quite effectively.

And why not let your opponent get small satisfaction taking down a riptide, you can always have an OSC coming up his flanks while your distraction carinfex soaks up the firepower still.

When only running one or two riptides FNP is exceptionally strong at keeping them alive another few turns because of the amount of fire that's going to be sent their way.

However if you're comparing 4 riptides with FNP vs 5 riptides without it, I'm pretty sure the extra riptide is just going to be better. When you hailfire that's an extra riptide firing twice. The resulting dead enemy units is going to be worth way more in keeping your tides alive then FNP would.

FNP is also effectively worthless against any sort of assault deathball, since any deathball worth its salt will mulch a riptide with or without FNP.

I never take stims on my regular Riptides. Considering that I wouldn't ever take more than 5 Tides in a serious list (in 3:1:1 configuration), that makes 35 rolls on the nova reactor over the course of a game, ~4 wounds will result from those rolls, and if we're generous, ~2 ignored by getting stims on all 5. 175pts for 2 nova wounds. That's clearly a poor investment on its own.

Martel mentioned the durability increase stims grant, which is considerable. That said, I personally would prefer the extra offensive output that more dudes would bring. For instance, turn those 175 pts into another Riptide, and you have a force that requires 45 AP2 wounds to wipe vs 56.5 wounds (for 5 Tides with stims) but with 20% more firepower. In other words, you trade durability even-up for firepower. Given that my Riptides don't tend to die very easily, I'd rather have the extra flexibility, firepower, and mobility allowed by having more models on the table.

Also, note that 3++ is better than 5++/5+++. There's a decent argument in there for running the IA over the HBC, but that's for another thread...which is currently open in the Tactics forum!

You have also to consider that many tournaments have time limit so most of the games are cut at the end of turn 3. Killing even a cheap riptide by turn 3 isn't that easy, that's another reason why having more units could be rewarding.

FnP is good on 1-2 Riptides working separately, but for Riptide Wing it's not necessary

 Blackie wrote:
You have also to consider that many tournaments have time limit so most of the games are cut at the end of turn 3. Killing even a cheap riptide by turn 3 isn't that easy, that's another reason why having more units could be rewarding.

Most certainly - killing a riptidewing in 3 turns is dang near impossible even without FNP.

3 turn games change a lot.

People need to keep in mind that shielded missile drones counter grav guns.

 Jaxler wrote:
People need to keep in mind that shielded missile drones counter grav guns.

By in turn lowering the squad's overall Toughness...

Ghostkeels did Drones right. They're the same T as the owner.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
People need to keep in mind that shielded missile drones counter grav guns.

By in turn lowering the squad's overall Toughness...

Ghostkeels did Drones right. They're the same T as the owner.

Do you even own the codex? The shielded missile drones are T6.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
People need to keep in mind that shielded missile drones counter grav guns.

By in turn lowering the squad's overall Toughness...

Ghostkeels did Drones right. They're the same T as the owner.

Do you even own the codex? The shielded missile drones are T6.

Bleh. So they are.

I kept thinking they were normal T. I don't run Riptides so I don't have much experience on them.

In any regards...Drones dying shouldn't affect the owners negatively.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
People need to keep in mind that shielded missile drones counter grav guns.

By in turn lowering the squad's overall Toughness...

Ghostkeels did Drones right. They're the same T as the owner.

Do you even own the codex? The shielded missile drones are T6.

Bleh. So they are.

I kept thinking they were normal T. I don't run Riptides so I don't have much experience on them.

In any regards...Drones dying shouldn't affect the owners negatively.

Racist, #DroneLivesMatter! (somewhat consistent with the 6e codex fluff, that Tau don't want to waste even a drone if they can. The Mont'ka Kauyon books seem to back track that a few billion lives)

I would also echo the feeling that Stims are generally a very rare purchase on a Riptide for me as well. The price tag just kills it for me. Any time I think I want to pick up the Stims, I am usually running a semi-competitive list with 1 Riptide. Even then, I feel the Riptide would be better served by spending the points on a Tetra instead. The core of my opinion usually comes from my comes form my tournament experience, where my Riptides are either the first thing that gets targeted, or the last.

If my opponent goes after my Riptides first, I usually win; they are trying to shoot one of my most durable units off the board, which is fine. Unless there are very specific circumstances (Eldar StrD spam with Warp Hunters, Lynx, and Wraithcannons and the like), this is usually poor target priority by my opponent. Even if they brought Grav Spam, they might delete one Riptide, but the rest of the Tau will be more than enough to deal with the problem.

The matches I take a serious whopping, are usually when my Riptides are the last thing to see any fire. When I get dissected, the first thing to go are my Markerlights, then my ObSec units, then my Warlord (if he wasn't killed in the Markerlight purge), and then any Stormsurges. If I took Broadsides or an OSC this could change the order a bit, due to their Markerlight independence, if the units that my opponent have are susceptible to their firepower.

By and large, if my Riptides are getting shot, the game is usually over. If it's early, then that's a huge advantage to me; if it's late, then they are just mopping up my units in a tabling. In either scenario, I'm better off spending the points on other units, unless I only have one Riptide. If I only took one, then I could see spending the points to make him hold out longer, while my opponents tries to eliminate him. I can maximize the damage the rest of my list can do before it falls. Other than that, I don't see much use from the Stim Injector on a Riptide.

If you are taking that many Riptides, I would imagine that there would be almost no point in Stims. However, if you are running a lone Riptide, stims would be very handy.

There is also the question of how vulnerable the rest of your force is.

If you're running nothing but MCs and suits, which isn't unlikely given the formations available; then it is inevitable they will start shooting the riptides in which case dropping one model somewhere to buy 3 riptides FNP becomes more valuable especially as a extra layer of protection from Grav.