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 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ergo, the US needs to nationalize the defense industry.


No thank you. Privatization, while expensive, is far more innovating, just the same as it is for commercial goods.
   
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KTG17 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ergo, the US needs to nationalize the defense industry.


No thank you. Privatization, while expensive, is far more innovating, just the same as it is for commercial goods.


Seconded.

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 Frazzled wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Nationalizing production, besides being unconstitutional is just fething asinine. Many defense firms produce all kinds of stuff for non-govermental clients. For example, Boeing makes more than fighters, Oshkosh makes more than trucks for the Army. Those companies share resources (both engineering/design services and manufacturing capacity as well as admin services).


Spin them off. I'll handle the M&A.


Again, just stupid. For it to be even somewhat efficient you must assume the gov't keeps using the full capacity (buys more and more and more and more). Otherwise the taxpayer is paying to maintain unneeded capacity.

Fraz, I thought you were against Gov't over reach and abuse. Now you want them to privatize industries? Is Chavez your new role model?

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On moon miranda.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Just chiming in here.
I think the major issue for the US military is the massive costs of its equipment. Especially the newer stuff.
The Russian military can get the cutting-edge 4th generation Armata tank for about half the money the US needs to spend to get an Abrams, which is just an updated version of an old tank that has been around since the 70's. And it is not just tanks or Russia, the same holds true for the costs of most American military equipment vs the equivalent equipment of all of its major rivals.
Not only do these high costs mean that the US could have had a much larger, more powerful army for the massive amount of money it spends on defense, it also means that the potential of the US to engage in any large-scale attrition based conflict is severely limited (the costs would cripple the economy). In short, American equipment and development of new equipment costs more than absolutely necessary.

At the root of the problem I think is the fact that the factories that produce equipment for the US military are all private companies (that are out to make as big a profit as possible). Russia or China meanwhile have state-owned factories that can produce the same for a fraction of the cost (because they do not need to make a profit on it).
Ergo, the US needs to nationalise the defense industry. Initially that would require a load of money, but on the long term it could result in either a drastic decrease in military spending (with no reduction in capacity) or a major increase in capacity if military spending remains on the same level.
hrm, its not quite that simple. For a lot of these things, the US bears the burden of the first mover, doing the initial research and design of new technologies that are then replicated by others at a much lower pricetage after the initial expense of R&D and proof of concept is done by the US. The US is willing to bear that as they have exclusive use of such technologies for some time, but this is also very expensive. "Stealth" aircraft and the Atomic Bomb are perfect examples.

Likewise, with regards to the Armata and Abrams, a new Abrams hull hasnt been built in twenty years or more, any "new" Abrams is a hull that has been stripped down and rebuilt.

The Armata doesnt seem to have any major decisive advantage over other MBT's aside from small crew size (which can be as much a detriment as a boon) that isnt on development or already deployed for tanks like Abrams or LEO2, and the Armata's production volume thus far is only about a hundred units, and Russia does not appear to have the funds to buy lots more Armatas.

Ultimately, much like small arms, tanks are something of a plateaued technology for the time being, with small incremental improvements possible but little or no major capability advantages able to be capitalized on.

Russian and Chinese labor costs for research and production are also a whole lot lower, and when accounting for Purchasing Power Parity (the difference in purchasing power between economies as reflected by differences in costs as opposed to raw currency) as a result, the Armata's ~$3.7million pricetag comes out to be closer to ~$10million in US terms, a bit above the newest Abrams versions.


That said, yes, there are absolutely corruption and profit seeking issues with the US defense establishment. They're hardly the only ones though.

Likewise, Russia has been privatizing some of their industries. Kalashnikov Concern remains 51% state owned, but 49% privately owned and is privately managed in a for-profit operation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/13 16:30:37


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 CptJake wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Nationalizing production, besides being unconstitutional is just fething asinine. Many defense firms produce all kinds of stuff for non-govermental clients. For example, Boeing makes more than fighters, Oshkosh makes more than trucks for the Army. Those companies share resources (both engineering/design services and manufacturing capacity as well as admin services).


Spin them off. I'll handle the M&A.


Again, just stupid. For it to be even somewhat efficient you must assume the gov't keeps using the full capacity (buys more and more and more and more). Otherwise the taxpayer is paying to maintain unneeded capacity.

Fraz, I thought you were against Gov't over reach and abuse. Now you want them to privatize industries? Is Chavez your new role model?


The taxpayer is already doing that.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Just chiming in here.
I think the major issue for the US military is the massive costs of its equipment. Especially the newer stuff.
The Russian military can get the cutting-edge 4th generation Armata tank for about half the money the US needs to spend to get an Abrams, which is just an updated version of an old tank that has been around since the 70's. And it is not just tanks or Russia, the same holds true for the costs of most American military equipment vs the equivalent equipment of all of its major rivals.
Not only do these high costs mean that the US could have had a much larger, more powerful army for the massive amount of money it spends on defense, it also means that the potential of the US to engage in any large-scale attrition based conflict is severely limited (the costs would cripple the economy). In short, American equipment and development of new equipment costs more than absolutely necessary.

At the root of the problem I think is the fact that the factories that produce equipment for the US military are all private companies (that are out to make as big a profit as possible). Russia or China meanwhile have state-owned factories that can produce the same for a fraction of the cost (because they do not need to make a profit on it).
Ergo, the US needs to nationalise the defense industry. Initially that would require a load of money, but on the long term it could result in either a drastic decrease in military spending (with no reduction in capacity) or a major increase in capacity if military spending remains on the same level.
hrm, its not quite that simple. For a lot of these things, the US bears the burden of the first mover, doing the initial research and design of new technologies that are then replicated by others at a much lower pricetage after the initial expense of R&D and proof of concept is done by the US. The US is willing to bear that as they have exclusive use of such technologies for some time, but this is also very expensive. "Stealth" aircraft and the Atomic Bomb are perfect examples.

Likewise, with regards to the Armata and Abrams, a new Abrams hull hasnt been built in twenty years or more, any "new" Abrams is a hull that has been stripped down and rebuilt.

The Armata doesnt seem to have any major decisive advantage over other MBT's aside from small crew size (which can be as much a detriment as a boon) that isnt on development or already deployed for tanks like Abrams or LEO2, and the Armata's production volume thus far is only about a hundred units, and Russia does not appear to have the funds to buy lots more Armatas.

Ultimately, much like small arms, tanks are something of a plateaued technology for the time being, with small incremental improvements possible but little or no major capability advantages able to be capitalized on.

Russian and Chinese labor costs for research and production are also a whole lot lower, and when accounting for Purchasing Power Parity (the difference in purchasing power between economies as reflected by differences in costs as opposed to raw currency) as a result, the Armata's ~$3.7million pricetag comes out to be closer to ~$10million in US terms, a bit above the newest Abrams versions.


That said, yes, there are absolutely corruption and profit seeking issues with the US defense establishment. They're hardly the only ones though.

Likewise, Russia has been privatizing some of their industries. Kalashnikov Concern remains 51% state owned, but 49% privately owned and is privately managed in a for-profit operation.


Russia has those new tanks but most of the fleet is older and even if they started now with the numbers it would be a good few years to mostly go from T90 to Amarta tanks, there is probbly some T80 and upgraded 72's about too still.

Like same with US. Even if you where to unvail a new gen battle tank, and stat production.
The total fleet of x thousand Abrahams would bot be swapped over to new standard for 5-10 years including crew training, spares and logistical support for the new models.

And even then the Abrahams varriat engineering models would remain.
Though plenty of spare hulls to start a IDF style namar APC programme.


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 sebster wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Contracting work out is still cheaper for the govt. The govt has to invest all of the time and money into training to make sure everyone in the service has the skills they need so while the pay is lower the govt investment is higher. That same person can leave when his/her enlistment is up and get hired as a contractor with a much larger salary because they already have the skills needed to do the job. It's cheaper for the govt to hire somebody to fill a slot that is already qualified than it is to spend the time and money to create a new person to do that same job. It's also a lot easier for the military to contract out specific work to civilians than it is to try to fill niche slots through recruitment. It also lets the govt slap a temporary solution over the issue of retention and entering into prolonged conflicts without expanding the military.


It is true that paying someone you've already trained as a contractor can be cheaper than hiring a new recruit and training him up. However, what you're missing is that what's even cheaper is training that soldier up and retaining him is even cheaper still.

While retention has always been an issue, it's mostly been due to people getting sick of the life, wanting to spend more time at home with their families and things like that. People who want to remain in an active role haven't been a tought retain for the army, because they're the only game in town, unless soldiers were happy to go work for a shady mining company keeping assets safe from disaffected locals or other fairly unappealing kinds of work.

That was until the army started using private contractors at which point trained, experienced soldiers could finish their service and then go work for a contractor who then worked for the army. Effectively the army put itself in a deal where it spent a pile of money training up soldiers, and then saw the soldiers leave and charge the army for their value as trained soldiers, effectively the army was being charged for the value the army itself added to the soldier.



This was my MOS (military job for those who don't have the background) in a nutshell.... We had one of the longest single schools in the entire army at around 48 weeks long (my initial contract read 52 weeks 3 days, but curriculum changes meant it was slightly shorter), and in general principle, the "career track" for most people was to do your 5-6 year initial contract, get a couple promotions, and then go work for GD, Raytheon, CACI, or any number of other contracting companies doing literally the same work for double and triple the wages. This was 2004 when I went through school.

Fast-forward to 2008, and now, due to contracting issues, I am no longer able to maintain my own equipment, because the contract explicitly states that that is the contractors job. I am fully trained and qualified to do everything they are doing, and then some, but I'm still not "authorized" to do anything. The better contractors would see that we were good at our jobs, and let us do them, thus making his/her life easier (not that being a contractor downrange was particularly rough)

So yeah... I'm sorry, but the contracting system used by the military is fething ridiculous, and absolutely NOT cost-effective.
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
and Russia does not appear to have the funds to buy lots more Armatas.


This goes along with my earlier statement about US readiness over others. Russia isn't alone with this problem. Just about everyone is having these issues.

It isn't just the cost of the new technology, but the amount of time and money needed to catch up to the US, even when secrets are stolen. But I would also argue that in addition to the costs of weapons going up, socialist programs eat up a lot of countries budgets too (look at Europe and NATO). In the past some of the previous colonial powers had reasons to have sizable fleets and troops spread around the world, in particular financed by those colonies, but that's pretty much behind us. Their economies are only capable of producing so much and with politicians promising more healthcare, pensions, infrastructure, and so on, this eats into the budgets that used to feed the military. The result is less home-manufactured weapons and more imported (such as the UK buying the F-35), centralizing many of the industries. In addition, not many of these countries are using these systems in full scale wars (lately its been more insurgency work), or even have the funds for proper training or parts. In a sense, they are also losing the knowledge on how to use the weapon systems they do have.

Whatever your opinion is on the wars the US has fought since WWII, if has helped it be the force it is today. While America struggles on how to fight a war and win one POLITICALLY, most of the time holding one of the military's arm behind its back while doing so, its allowed the US to perfect integrating systems through trial and error so that it has a wide variety of options in dealing with a variety of threats. You can only learn so much in practice. If it ever came to a point where the US military was fully unleashed as it was in WWII, with a clear and fully supported mission (unlike Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, or one that didn't want to call a war so therefore didn't fully support - Korea), it would be unstoppable. Compare the casualty count the US endures versus its enemies. The US military has never been the problem, its been the politicians.

It will take a major amount of time for the US to divest in its technology and tactics, while another puts in a major amount of investment, for someone to come close to being on par with the US. China gets a lot of attention, but the most they will ever do is threaten the South and East China seas. You have to remember the US gets a lot of help. Not just from sharing technology from allies, but also with bases around the world. Who is going to help China in that regard? No one. And the approach the Chinese are taking now in the South China Sea is very similar to what the Japanese tried to pull in WWII. Its amazing how short memories can be. That is, if China's government even lasts long enough to, and I highly doubt that it will. China has some major issues coming up socially and economically and I wouldn't be surprised to see that government fall to pieces in the next 15-20 years.

Which is another thing that puts the US over others: stability. So long as the dollar serves as the worlds safe haven, the US is going to be top dog.
   
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Bristol

KTG17 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ergo, the US needs to nationalize the defense industry.


No thank you. Privatization, while expensive, is far more innovating, just the same as it is for commercial goods.


Not really. If you give a government R&D department and a private R&D firm a brief which says "Build us an on-board computer which can navigate to the moon using only 64kb of RAM and with a maximum weight of Xkg" they're both going to have to innovate.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Ergo, the US needs to nationalize the defense industry.


No thank you. Privatization, while expensive, is far more innovating, just the same as it is for commercial goods.


Not really. If you give a government R&D department and a private R&D firm a brief which says "Build us an on-board computer which can navigate to the moon using only 64kb of RAM and with a maximum weight of Xkg" they're both going to have to innovate.


They are going to innovate with that one specific task, but the market place determines which goods consumers really want, and therefore talent and competition is going to drive innovation of all products. So while both the US and the Soviet Union put men in space, only one was able to transfer that technology across multiple sectors and uses, especially for public use.

Its the main reason communism couldn't keep up with capitalism. Yes the Soviets put out some pretty amazing things here and there over the course of a few decades, but were way behind is so many others. China was pretty backward too and it was only until capital investment in cheap labor and capitalistic changes in their own system that has gotten them where they are today. For communism to be successful, you need a population of drones incapable of independent thought. To be successful in capitalism, you have to continually adapt and think freely and creatively. The government can force the focus on a few things, but a market is going to determine what is really of use and how to improve it the most over time, and from that, you will have more solutions to problems.

I can assure you that when private space companies gain more experience in space exploration, that industry will explode too. If it stayed under NASA, it would remain slow, methodical, and narrowly focused on what it wants and can accomplish, especially financed by the government. Once it becomes affordable for consumers of all kinds, it will explode. That in turn will create better technology and ideas for space exploration.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/13 18:35:10


 
   
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Bristol

But your military doesn't care about what goods the "market" wants. It knows what it wants, it is the market.

And there would be nothing stopping a nationalised development team patenting and selling licenses to those patents to the private sector to allow them to adapt any new technologies to the private market.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/03/13 19:13:55


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

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4th Obelisk On The Right

Plus for the market=innovation to even make sense we would have to actually see innovation in the defense market. However, defense contractors are often not even in competition. Its why GPS technology in the military is way behind and why I saw some equipment that cost the government 100k+ per unit, have less technology and ability than if I used my smart phone. Defense contractors see the US Government as an easy meal. The US military has to buy what is offered and if one company says it will take one contract and another says it will take the other, neither company is actually competing. Its like the cable market in the US, which is almost completely non-competitive.

 
   
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 BrotherGecko wrote:
Plus for the market=innovation to even make sense we would have to actually see innovation in the defense market. However, defense contractors are often not even in competition. Its why GPS technology in the military is way behind and why I saw some equipment that cost the government 100k+ per unit, have less technology and ability than if I used my smart phone. Defense contractors see the US Government as an easy meal. The US military has to buy what is offered and if one company says it will take one contract and another says it will take the other, neither company is actually competing. Its like the cable market in the US, which is almost completely non-competitive.


If they actually applied the Sherman Act the shockwaves would have a tectonic impact upon the industry.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Catskills in NYS

 Frazzled wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Plus for the market=innovation to even make sense we would have to actually see innovation in the defense market. However, defense contractors are often not even in competition. Its why GPS technology in the military is way behind and why I saw some equipment that cost the government 100k+ per unit, have less technology and ability than if I used my smart phone. Defense contractors see the US Government as an easy meal. The US military has to buy what is offered and if one company says it will take one contract and another says it will take the other, neither company is actually competing. Its like the cable market in the US, which is almost completely non-competitive.


If they actually applied the Sherman Act the shockwaves would have a tectonic impact upon the industry.

But that would mean CEOs wouldn't make nearly as much money Frazz, and we can't hurt those poor defenselessness billionaires now can we?

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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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Of course not, although it would be a kick in the teeth of California's economy which I am always for...hehehehe

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/13 19:53:00


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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4th Obelisk On The Right

Plus when push comes to shove, those CEOs will just get Congress to dance anyways.

 
   
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It is an imperfect system... but, sometimes... civilian pressure (Congress and other fanboi) can get the defense to change their minds...

Like the A-10

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/13 20:01:55


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But your military doesn't care about what goods the "market" wants. It knows what it wants, it is the market.


This is not true. There are many items that are designed with military, police, or civilian use in mind, that the military will purchase or request modification to meet their needs. But they themselves don't go out and design it. They say, 'we're looking for this with capabilities of that" and the private sector see's what it can do. The same is done for the police as well.

My neighbor's job is to go out and see, test, and evaluate equipment used by the US special forces, and evaluates all kinds of gak. Much of the time he is sent to see items that MIGHT BE of some use that are already available. So it isn't like the military says "lets design this from scratch", they will many times look and see what is already available, and if needed, have it customized for their needs.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Plus for the market=innovation to even make sense we would have to actually see innovation in the defense market. However, defense contractors are often not even in competition. Its why GPS technology in the military is way behind and why I saw some equipment that cost the government 100k+ per unit, have less technology and ability than if I used my smart phone. Defense contractors see the US Government as an easy meal. The US military has to buy what is offered and if one company says it will take one contract and another says it will take the other, neither company is actually competing. Its like the cable market in the US, which is almost completely non-competitive.


How can you say there is no innovation in the defense industry? The innovations since WWII have been astounding.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/13 21:02:56


 
   
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And then you have stupidity like the new pistol fiasco.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Catskills in NYS

 Frazzled wrote:
And then you have stupidity like the new pistol fiasco.

What's happening?

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 kronk wrote:
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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And then you have stupidity like the new pistol fiasco.

What's happening?


They put out a bid to replace the M9. It was several thousand pages long, with an estimated cost of more than $10mm. Only a few companies submitted bids because the documentation was so onerous. One of them (Glock ) is now suing. They ended up with a SIG because its "modular" but the cost will be more than just getting different types. It took YEARS.

Or they could have done like a major police department, threw out a request for X number, and X number of replacement parts, had a trial and been done with it.
Or even better just call up Glock, off $x.xx for 200,000 GLock 19s, with delilvery of X a year and call it for an early lunch.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Sweden

KTG17 wrote:


They are going to innovate with that one specific task, but the market place determines which goods consumers really want


No it doesn't. It determines what people can afford.

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Catskills in NYS

 Frazzled wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And then you have stupidity like the new pistol fiasco.

What's happening?


They put out a bid to replace the M9. It was several thousand pages long, with an estimated cost of more than $10mm. Only a few companies submitted bids because the documentation was so onerous. One of them (Glock ) is now suing. They ended up with a SIG because its "modular" but the cost will be more than just getting different types. It took YEARS.

Or they could have done like a major police department, threw out a request for X number, and X number of replacement parts, had a trial and been done with it.
Or even better just call up Glock, off $x.xx for 200,000 GLock 19s, with delilvery of X a year and call it for an early lunch.


That certainly sounds like the military alright.

It's like they can't do anything without wasting billions.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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On moon miranda.

 Frazzled wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And then you have stupidity like the new pistol fiasco.

What's happening?


They put out a bid to replace the M9. It was several thousand pages long, with an estimated cost of more than $10mm. Only a few companies submitted bids because the documentation was so onerous. One of them (Glock ) is now suing. They ended up with a SIG because its "modular" but the cost will be more than just getting different types. It took YEARS.

Or they could have done like a major police department, threw out a request for X number, and X number of replacement parts, had a trial and been done with it.
Or even better just call up Glock, off $x.xx for 200,000 GLock 19s, with delilvery of X a year and call it for an early lunch.

It's even more amusing because for all the "modularity" touted, who's going to be tracking and stocking and actually swapping parts on these handguns all the time? Are armories going to be carrying extra compact slides or full length barrels and the like for people that want to switch sizes? Are people really going to be slapping compact slides on full sized frames? What's the point of all that modularity?

Even more amusing, part of the contract was they wanted something even more durable than the M9...but then only did durability testing to 1/3rd of the round count that the M9 was tested to in the 80's...

Then of course P320 they ended up going with has far less data and tested durability & experience of the Glock. The P320 probably is a perfectly fine pistol, but the apparent testing standards given the goals were...strange.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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What's even odder is that there was any need for trials at all, since everyone knows handgun technology was perfected in 1911.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Flinty wrote:
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 CptJake wrote:
Nationalizing production, besides being unconstitutional is just fething asinine. Many defense firms produce all kinds of stuff for non-govermental clients. For example, Boeing makes more than fighters, Oshkosh makes more than trucks for the Army. Those companies share resources (both engineering/design services and manufacturing capacity as well as admin services).


Yeah, nationalising production isn't the answer. The argument that Russia's production is cheaper because its government owned is pretty funny. The new Armata tanks have a low ticket price because the tanks are massively cross subsidised, with new technologies installed at a fraction of their real cost, and both UVZ and Rostec taking a big hit and producing each tank at a loss, all so that Russia can claim their new tank is much more affordable than it really is.

The issue with the US isn't the presence of private manufacturers, but the lack of really competitive bidding processes. This is largely because there are very few private companies capable of building the really high end gear that modern armies use. When the F-22 and F-35 were put out, there were basically two companies that could give the US what it wanted, and furthermore both companies were reluctant to spend the huge sum of cash it would cost to put up a decent bid - they were concerned if they missed the bid they'd flush all that cash down the drain. So the tender process ended up with the strange arrangement that no matter which bidder won the contract, both would receive shares of the final design and manufacturing contracts.

Exactly what could be done to make this process more competitive is a hell of a question. A competitive bidding process needs a large number of viable bidders, but military advantage these days is primarily sought through cutting edge technology, which by its very nature means that it is tech that only a few companies can design, let alone produce. So how you increase the number of bidders, while dealing with such high end tech is a really good question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Russian and Chinese labor costs for research and production are also a whole lot lower, and when accounting for Purchasing Power Parity (the difference in purchasing power between economies as reflected by differences in costs as opposed to raw currency) as a result, the Armata's ~$3.7million pricetag comes out to be closer to ~$10million in US terms, a bit above the newest Abrams versions.


That said, yes, there are absolutely corruption and profit seeking issues with the US defense establishment. They're hardly the only ones though.

Likewise, Russia has been privatizing some of their industries. Kalashnikov Concern remains 51% state owned, but 49% privately owned and is privately managed in a for-profit operation.


The company making the Armata, UVZ, was actually going to be privatised for a long time. But policy changed under Putin, and instead it got moved under a larger public company, Rostec. There's little to no efficiency advantage in this, but there is a great political advantage. Because this way all the new fangled tech in the Armata that was developed by other government agencies can be put in the Armata at peppercorn rates, and then Rostec can take a big hit on the contract, and then UVZ can take another hit on the contract. So there's three levels of subsidisation going in to that tank. This means Putin can stand there claiming Russia can make a tank equal to the Americans at about half the price.

It's a nice PR bit, but it only works on a small scale before those subsidies start to become unaffordable to those entities. That's why Russia has only been able to build about 200 of these things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 02:44:53


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

This is an interesting article about this topic...
When replacing the failed F-35, the U.S. should focus on building large numbers of a reliable, lightweight fighter design.

The United States needs a new high-endurance dedicated fleet-defense/air-superiority fighter for its Navy and a new close-air-support warplane to fight alongside the venerable A-10. But our most critical need is an effective air-superiority fighter for our Air Force that provides genuine airpower at a price we can afford. The Air Force’s F-22 Raptor is too expensive to procure and spends too much time on the ground undergoing maintenance. The F-35 is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none strike fighter that spends too much time on the tarmac and costs far too much to support over its service life. But all is not lost. With a small, disciplined, vendor-independent fighter-design team led by actual fighter pilots, the U.S. could begin production of a new world-class fighter in large numbers in nine years or less.

Embodying the spirit of the P-51 Mustang, the best and most important fighter of the Second World War, the F-45 Mustang II, our new air-superiority fighter, will cost less than the newest version of the multi-role F-16 Viper. Because the fighter that powers up its big, powerful radar first turns itself into a great big target in the modern battlespace (by emitting lots of heat and radar waves), our new air-superiority fighter will focus on achieving first-shot dominance via passive sensors, a smaller infrared signature, and practicing electromagnetic-emission control (EMCON). To speed development and save on cost, this single-engine fighter will be built using the best of existing vetted technology. Because of superior aerodynamics, i.e., because it won’t be crippled by a large front-facing radar and stealth-shaping requirements, its range will be superior to our current fighters. And it will have a truly useful supercruise capability. Most importantly, unlike the F-22 or the F-35, which are capable of flying only a single sortie (mission) every two or three days, the F-45 will be capable of two to three sorties per day for many months at a time. Since the rule of thumb is that you buy fighters by the pound, our 21st-century Mustang will be light, lean, and lethal.

On top of their greatly reduced cost, smaller fighters are better in a dogfight. And because they have smaller visual signatures and smaller infrared heat signatures, they are harder to see and hit at both WVR (within visual range) and BVR (beyond visual range) ranges. Lighter and leaner warplanes also cost less to maintain. Thankfully, we still have a stable of fighters that, with some care and upgrades, will allow us to maintain our edge in air power for the next ten to twelve years. However, we can’t afford another failed program like the F-35, or even the more mixed record of the F-22. Yes, the F-22’s metrics are impressive. But no matter what your thrust-to-weight ratio is, or what your sustained-turning rate is, or how x-band radar-stealthy a warplane is, you aren’t a good fighter if, like the F-22, you are struggling to fly once every two or three days. Effective air power comes from planes that are actually flying — not from expensive, high-tech sitting ducks on the tarmac that are being constantly maintained and repaired.

The U.S. military seems to have forgotten that the greater part of a fighter’s effectiveness derives from the experience and training of the pilot. More pithily, Colonel John Boyd, far and away the most influential practitioner and theorist of aerial combat, puts it this way: “A real fighter pilot has always had the attitude: They give us sh** to fly, and we win anyhow.” Happily, it has been decades since our pilots have been in a shooting war with enemy pilots who had a snowball’s chance against any of our fighters.

A 1992 Air Power Journal article concludes that the opponents we faced in Desert Storm were “unable to fight” and “unwilling to fight.” Iraqi pilots who had been chosen for political connections rather than talent were literally flying their planes into the ground. Things were even more lopsided during Operation Iraqi Freedom, when over 1,800 coalition aircraft completely dominated the air space with no air-to-air combat of any significance. But the downside of being so utterly dominant is that you get used to pervasive no-risk coverage by support planes such as airborne-refueling tankers and Airborne Warning and Control System planes (AWACS).

When facing competent opponents, things will be different. Indeed, a doctrinal priority for both the Chinese and the Russians is to take out such support planes immediately; indeed, they have been developing weapons and tactics such as the very-long-range (250 mile) S-400 Triumf/SA-21 anti-air-support missile to do just that. Decades of facing outnumbered, poorly trained opponents flying poorly maintained planes is terrible preparation for going up against peer opponents — who, in any particular theater, may outnumber us and will have the support of their own AWACS and support planes.

THE FIVE PRINCIPLES OF AMERICAN FIGHTER DESIGN

Because American air power has not been tested in combat against peer competitors for over 40 years, in a designing a proper replacement for the F-35, Principle No. 1 going forward is: Any lessons we think we have learned during this period of utter airpower dominance needs to be viewed extremely skeptically. Concluding that our successes were primarily due to our technological superiority does not hold water. A more balanced, historically mindful interpretation of our dominance in the Middle East is offered by Steven Biddle, who in his excellent, must-read book, Military Power: Explaining Victory and Defeat in Modern Battle, builds the overwhelming case that it was superior leadership, superior training, and superior tactics, augmented by technological superiority, that led to the perfect storm of military dominance that we experienced in the Gulf Wars.

A nice summary of Biddle’s views can be found in an International Security Paper, in which Biddle writes:
Similarly, arguments that modernization spending should be protected at the expense of training and readiness accounts overestimates the military value of technology per se, and underestimates the role of skill in determining the effects that any given technology will produce. . . . It would be a mistake to pay for faster modernization by accepting a less skilled military.

Speaking on the importance of training in general, Lieutenant Colonel Tom “Chuck” Norris, a retired USAF pilot with over 3,000 hours of flight time, observed: “Ten to 15 hours per month is enough to maintain familiarity with your aircraft, but not enough to maintain proficiency.” Our fighter programs attract the best of the best, but without enough training we are incurring undue risk for our really good people. And yet, the unreliability of fighters like the F-22 and F-35 ensures that our pilots struggle to get ten to twelve hours per month of actual in-air flight training (stick-time).

Consequently, the F-45 must be reliable enough to ensure that our pilots tap into the tremendous multiplicative effect that superior training and tactics brings to the battlespace. Further, giving our pilots the time to train to tactics will equip them to overcome any technological edge a peer competitor might temporarily hold.

Therefore, Principle No. 2 is: Our next fighter must be of sufficiently reliability to support minimal-sustained-training rates of 30 hours per month of flight time indefinitely, with a surge-training capability of over 40 hours per month to enable our pilots to progress past proficiency to mastery. Only at these high levels of training can our pilots gain the all-important proficiency in the many-on-many air battles that will prove decisive in our struggle for air-power dominance in the future.

Principle No. 3 is tightly coupled with Principle No. 2: Our new air-superiority fighters must be able to fly multiple sorties per day indefinitely. A high sortie-generation rate is the most important single measure of a fighter’s effectiveness. As has been the case for last 30 years, the U.S. can get away with a low sortie-generation-rate fighter when we are the ones dictating when, where, and how we will engage our opponents. However, when going up against peer competitors capable of forcing the fight and taking the initiative, low-reliability/low-sortie fighters will be a huge liability and their lack of real airpower will be fatally exposed on multiple levels. An effective air force needs fighters with high sortie-generation rates to produce genuine airpower while simultaneously supporting high training rates. That we have let our vendor-controlled procurement system siphon away hundreds of billions of dollars and decades of development time to produce fighters such as the F-22 and the F-35 that have zero chance of flying one combat sortie per day while supporting effective training rates is simply scandalous.

During the Cold War, the U.S. maintained a significant technological advantage over countries such as China and the Soviet Union. However, we also invested in fielding large numbers of fighters and ships. Both our Navy and our air forces were much larger and more powerful at that time than they are today. And with 25 to 30 hours per month of in-air training, our pilots maintained much higher average levels of proficiency. That was then, this is now. Today, we find ourselves without the numbers to maintain the same kind of global presence we could maintain in the ’80s and early ’90s. And as our numbers have dwindled, so has the large technological edge we once held. An example of technological parity can be found in Russia’s extremely advanced air-to-air missiles and the powerful radar-jamming technology deployed on its latest fighters, such as the SU-35S Super Flanker. The new Russian fighters also feature stealth-piercing Infrared Search and Track (IRST) capabilities.

Given that any new fighters will be around for the next 30 years or even longer, any fighter program designed around the assumption that we can regain and maintain an overwhelming technological advantage would be foolish and reckless. U.S. designers must also presume that during long periods of low-intensity conflicts, advanced technology will end up proliferating one way or another.

So, Principle No. 4 is: In designing a new fighter we must — as has been the case for most of history — assume rough technological parity. The next principle is the logical extension of Principles No.1 and No. 4 and simply recognizes that there is absolutely, positively no such thing as an invulnerable airplane. Anyone talking about the invulnerability of any fighter or cloud of fighters should be disqualified from being involved in fighter design.

Accordingly, Principle No. 5 is: We must build enough fighters to absorb casualties in a fight against a peer opponent and yet still prevail. In short, as has been the case throughout military history, numbers matter.

LEAVE THE ‘INSPECTOR GADGET’ IDEAS IN THE MOVIES

But enough with meta design principles. Let’s move forward by assuming we get the right team of vendor-independent folks in place to do the detailed conceptual-design work and to oversee a defense-contracting process requiring a true competitive fly-off. Rather than embracing their inner Inspector Gadget, as was the case with the F-35’s designers, this team should look to legendary fighter designer William Bushnell Stout for inspiration. Stout’s motto for fighter design — “Simplicate and Add Lightness” — will inform the entire process. This will be the exact opposite of what Lockheed Martin did with the F-35 and F-22: adding complexity and heaviness — and, not incidentally, tremendous cost and unreliability.

First and foremost, our new fighter must be affordable enough, both in terms of initial-acquisition cost and support costs, that we can afford to buy and support it in numbers that matter (over 1,000 fighters). As a point of reference, we will use Sweden’s impressive $61 million, 15,000-lb., multi-role Saab Gripen JAS 39C as an example of a modern, world-class fighter that costs about one-third to one-fifth as much to fly per hour as does the F-35A.

Since our F-45 Mustang II will not be saddled with the cost and complexity associated with the Gripen’s air-to-ground attack capabilities or a large heat-generating radar, it can both weigh less and cost less. The target weight and cost for the F-45 Mustang will be 11,750 lbs. and $48 million, respectively. This price may seem unfeasibly low — but only because, like the proverbial frog in the pot, over the decades we have become accustomed to ridiculously overpriced weapons systems. To keep down costs and improve agility, our modern Mustang will be a single-engine warplane. Of course, the F-45 will have all the air-to-air capabilities that the Gripen features in addition to what the F-35 is supposed to sport, including sensor fusion, networked sensors, helmet-cued missile launching, and lock-on-after-launch missiles.

But, critically, its design team will avoid the Inspector Gadget–obsessed fighter-design mindset that gave us the F-35’sfirst-generation Distributed Aperture System (DAS). The DAS was hyped as boosting a pilot’s situational awareness by providing a 360-degree spherical view. The reality is quite different: The DAS generates a green-and-black picture at far less resolution than the human eye. Given its relatively poor 2D resolution, it’s not surprising that Major John Wilson, an F-35 test pilot, told an interviewer that if he were ever involved in a dogfight, “I’ll use my eyes, because I need to see things with my own eyes to judge aspect, distance closure, and other details that you can’t get using a 2D camera.” Major Wilson went on to characterize the DAS as a system of “limited utility.” Other analysis tells us that the DAS provides nothing that other less expensive systems provide. Therefore, going forward, before a decision is made to implement new technology fleetwide, new systems such as the DAS, with no demonstrated real-world battlefield utility, should be extensively tried out on test planes and then rolled out on a limited basis to production fighters in order to validate that they actually deliver essential combat power commensurate with their cost and weight. Not doing so is acquisition malpractice. In lieu of the complex and costly DAS, our Mustang will incorporate a bubble canopy that will provide truly useable situational awareness such as that found on our F-16s, F-18s, F-15s, F-22s, and, of course, the WWII P-51D Mustang, but which is sadly lacking on the F-35 strike fighter.

Rather than being built around the terribly risky idea of achieving air dominance through blasting the battlespace with kilowatts of electromagnetic energy in clever ways, our F-45 will achieve dominance via passive sensors and superior tactics enabled by superior training. Our fighter-design team will adhere to this ancient mantra: “When operating in a world of increasingly powerful digital-signal processing, anti-radiation, lock-on-after-launch missiles, infrared missiles, and high-sensitivity triangulating-microwave receivers, he who fires up his heat-generating, high-powered, low-probability-of-intercept, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar first, loses!” Our F-45 Mustang II will be a modern-day disciple of Sun Tzu!

Right behind high training and sortie-generation rates in importance will be our fighter’s effective combat range and endurance. This may surprise some folks, but the importance of range cannot be overestimated. When you take a fighter capable of a high sortie-generation rate and add exceptional endurance, you end up maximizing the number of fighters in the air protecting our troops from the enemy’s airpower. This ensures that our own close-air-support aircraft, such as the A-10, can partner with our ground forces in defeating enemy ground forces. What we need is fighters in the sky, not on the ground. Therefore, our F-45 will be able to spend four to five times as much time in the air as an F-35 or F-22.

Additionally, range and endurance becomes even more important when your airborne-refueling tankers must stay far away from the battlespace to avoid being shot down — as will be the case when facing a peer competitor such as Russia or China. Another important capability is tactically useful supercruise capable of the following: a) achieving and maintaining speeds over Mach 1 without having to use the fighter’s afterburner while carrying a full load of missiles; b) maintaining supersonic speeds for at least 20 minutes after having flown 350 nautical miles (402 miles); and c) engaging in combat and still getting home with acceptable fuel reserves. By greatly extending how much time our fighters can spend at speeds significantly faster than our opponents, genuine supercruise will enable our pilots to gain position and surprise (bounce) to fire that all-important, high-probability first shot. It will also make it harder for an opponent to surprise our pilots. And when engaged in beyond-visual-range combat, supercruise can impart extra energy to our missiles, giving them a big boost in range.

Along with the capabilities outlined above, our F-45s will carry a combination of up to six BVR or WVR missiles and will have an effective gun for aerial combat. Its primary sensors will be state-of-the-art passive sensors such as infrared search-and-track (IRST), radar-warning systems, as well as 360 degrees of missile-warning coverage and wing-embedded conformal sensors capable of detecting enemy radar, infrared, and other electromagnetic emissions. Its secondary, complementary sensor will be a light, compact radar that will be used situationally. The upshot here is that its passive-sensor technology will allow it to get the drop on fighters foolish enough to try to use their radar to locate it.

WHAT ABOUT STEALTH?

So far, we’ve discussed supercruise and the importance of range and endurance metrics. But What About Stealth! We Gotta Have Radar Stealth! Actually, no we don’t. The reason why is that contrary to the irresponsible, overhyped portrayal of stealth, the limited x-band radar-focused stealthiness of planes such as the F-35 and F-22 exacts a huge penalty. So-called stealth planes have much higher initial-acquisition costs and higher maintenance costs, carry fewer weapons by weight, have less range, and take a hit in overall aerodynamic performance.

With all these design penalties accounted for, however, stealth might be worth it — if it worked as advertised, but it doesn’t. Even as you read this, China, Russia, and many other countries have the ability to detect the F-35 — and even the F-22 — from hundreds of miles away. In fact, the radars used during the Battle of Britain could have tracked both the F-22 and the F-35 at ranges approaching 100 miles. While UHF/VHF radars may or may not be accurate enough on their own to guide missiles directly into “stealth” planes, they are plenty accurate enough to direct anti-stealth/ IRST–equipped fighters to intercept stealth fighters as well as cue up anti-stealth radars that can launch surface-to-air missiles at our so-called stealth fighters. Anti-stealth developments such as quantum radar are far outpacing any possible advances we will see in stealthy platforms.

Moreover, advances in infrared-detection technology such as Quantum Well Imaging Photodetectors (QWIP) completely ignore efforts to make planes harder to see on radar. So, while the F-45 will have a small radar signature similar to that of Sweden’s Gripen, it makes no sense for it to incur the huge radar-stealth penalty given that it will be around for the next 30 to 40 years.

BUILDING THE F-45 IS DOABLE — IF OUR LEADERS HAVE THE COURAGE TO ACT

The F-45’s airframe will benefit from the cost decreases we have seen over the last 20 years for high-end, high-strength-to-weight composites, allowing its designers to add lightness and the ability to carry more fuel. It will have a small infrared signature, a small visual signature, and, while not technically being a radar-stealthy plane, it will have a smaller radar signature than an F-16. It will have will have excellent range, endurance, and agility. And it will cost less to support than F-16 Vipers or even a Saab Gripen.

Shrewdly integrating only pre-existing, mature, best-of-breed components will create a plane greater than the sum of its parts. Critically, it will be reliable enough to execute multiple sorties per day, while enabling our pilots to get the all-important 30 hours of stick-time per month that they need and deserve. The F-45 will be a blast to fly. And because our pilots will finally be able to get back to doing what they signed up to do and love to do — fly — our pilot-retention rate will see dramatic improvements.

Critics might say that the above table makes the F-45 look like some kind of fantastical super-plane, but it most certainly is not. The key here is that a well-designed, modern fighter such as the F-45 built for a reasonable price stands out like a sore thumb when compared to planes that fly as infrequently as the F-35 and the F-22. The bottom line here is that for the hundreds of billions we have spent — and are set to spend — on our current fighter programs, we are getting criminally little airpower from our tarmac-class fighters.

Building a plane like the F-45 is imminently doable, but right now with both our military and Congress dominated by defense vendors, producing a cost-effective plane is politically difficult, to say the least. That needs to change. It’s time to start putting the needs of our taxpayers, our pilots, and our nation’s security ahead of the wants of defense contractors and their future senior executives.



Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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And the Abrams isn't even that expensive for a third/fourth generation MBT. Japan's Type 10 MBT is $8.4M and Korea's K2 Black Panther is $7.8M compared to the M1A1/2 at ~$8.6M. Although the Leopard 2 and Challenger 2 are both about $6M IIRC, so it is still expensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 03:06:26


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak







It is a good article, and it does a good job of fleshing out the argument for a plane designed with considerations other than chasing the absolute bleeding edge of capability. However, it is really a sales pitch, and because it's a sales pitch which starts with one false argument to hide it's own sales pitch.

Right in the heading, it tips its hand by claiming the F-35 is failed. The plane itself isn't failed, it will be amazingly effective in the skies. What has failed is the procurement process, which suffered from a long string of moving goalposts forcing constant redesign.

This proposed fighter then makes itself look great by comparing its original conception and estimated cost against the F-35's cost only after its been through a decade of redesign and adjustment. The original X-35 aircraft had figures much closer to what this F-45, remember it was supposed to be a cheap option that replaced a string of specialist aircraft with one robust all rounder design. But if this F-45 design was actually chosen, there's no reason we wouldn't see another decade long process of tinkering and redesign producing billions in wasted money that blow out the plane's final cost.

The real lesson with the F-35 isn't that stealth tech or active radar or anything else needs to change, the real lesson is that you need a much better process of procurement, where once a decision has been made on which plane best meets the terms of reference, then you accept that design and just get on with building the damn things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 07:32:53


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Not to mention calling the Mustang the "most important fighter" of the Second World War.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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