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 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

All in all i actually came out ahead, thanks to some good VP cards. He had no answer, weirdly, for my dakka predator (although by then his Patriarch was dead). But I didn't move from my starting position because he was always charging or spawning right on top of me. Literally like 6" away.

#1 Is very difficult to do. It only happens if the unit (a specific kind of unit) has an attached HQ of a specific kind, and even then it has to be one from that formation (the words in the book say "a Primus", but it was FAQ'd to be "that formation's Primus").
#2 happens not from the Cult, but easy to do with the Comms Relay in an Aegis.
#3 Not quite. You can't leave with a unit that just came on, you can't leave if you're within 6 inches of an enemy, and (as per the FAQ) you can't leave if you can't move (such as being pinned or falling back). When they return, they have to roll for Cult Ambush again.
#4 Mostly, but not always. Specifically, the Genestealers, Abhorents, and Patriarch lack assault grenades.
#5 What? No. The only units that have this, as far as I know, are squad leaders if they take the Bone Sword, and then it is only on 6's to wound (Life Drain). I think the Magus' staff is a Force Staff too.
#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.
#7 Not quite, but kinda. They automatically pass Look Out Sir! saves for the independent characters. I don't believe (but could be mistaken) that the squad sergeants get this.

 Yarium wrote:

Lol, I think TAC AM struggles against everything .

You're right, but against Gen cult that charge turn 1 they seem doomed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
my experience... GSC are tailor made to give imperial armies problems, Xenos aremies have very little issue. watched a few necron games it was laughable. against my tau and elder they struggle. orks are practically their hard counter, Harlies outclass them in what they do, though I am curios how they will do against DE. I theorize well, but nobody in my meta plays DE so no firsthand experience.

It depends on the DE lists. I usually field 5 min units of reavers so even if i get surrounded by gen cult I'll force them to assault expendable units. But I also field the corpsethief claw quite often, which is not weak against gen cult charging units.

 Blackie wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Lol, I think TAC AM struggles against everything .

You're right, but against Gen cult that charge turn 1 they seem doomed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
my experience... GSC are tailor made to give imperial armies problems, Xenos aremies have very little issue. watched a few necron games it was laughable. against my tau and elder they struggle. orks are practically their hard counter, Harlies outclass them in what they do, though I am curios how they will do against DE. I theorize well, but nobody in my meta plays DE so no firsthand experience.

It depends on the DE lists. I usually field 5 min units of reavers so even if i get surrounded by gen cult I'll force them to assault expendable units. But I also field the corpsethief claw quite often, which is not weak against gen cult charging units.

If the chimera were fairly costed, the AM could survive the turn 1 assault pretty easily. Especially chimeras with 3X flamers in them.

 Yarium wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

All in all i actually came out ahead, thanks to some good VP cards. He had no answer, weirdly, for my dakka predator (although by then his Patriarch was dead). But I didn't move from my starting position because he was always charging or spawning right on top of me. Literally like 6" away.

#1 Is very difficult to do. It only happens if the unit (a specific kind of unit) has an attached HQ of a specific kind, and even then it has to be one from that formation (the words in the book say "a Primus", but it was FAQ'd to be "that formation's Primus").
#2 happens not from the Cult, but easy to do with the Comms Relay in an Aegis.
#3 Not quite. You can't leave with a unit that just came on, you can't leave if you're within 6 inches of an enemy, and (as per the FAQ) you can't leave if you can't move (such as being pinned or falling back). When they return, they have to roll for Cult Ambush again.
#4 Mostly, but not always. Specifically, the Genestealers, Abhorents, and Patriarch lack assault grenades.
#5 What? No. The only units that have this, as far as I know, are squad leaders if they take the Bone Sword, and then it is only on 6's to wound (Life Drain). I think the Magus' staff is a Force Staff too.
#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.
#7 Not quite, but kinda. They automatically pass Look Out Sir! saves for the independent characters. I don't believe (but could be mistaken) that the squad sergeants get this.

Thank you for this. I didn't believe half of what i was being told. Friendly game, just chugged on you know?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

All in all i actually came out ahead, thanks to some good VP cards. He had no answer, weirdly, for my dakka predator (although by then his Patriarch was dead). But I didn't move from my starting position because he was always charging or spawning right on top of me. Literally like 6" away.

#1 Is very difficult to do. It only happens if the unit (a specific kind of unit) has an attached HQ of a specific kind, and even then it has to be one from that formation (the words in the book say "a Primus", but it was FAQ'd to be "that formation's Primus").
#2 happens not from the Cult, but easy to do with the Comms Relay in an Aegis.
#3 Not quite. You can't leave with a unit that just came on, you can't leave if you're within 6 inches of an enemy, and (as per the FAQ) you can't leave if you can't move (such as being pinned or falling back). When they return, they have to roll for Cult Ambush again.
#4 Mostly, but not always. Specifically, the Genestealers, Abhorents, and Patriarch lack assault grenades.
#5 What? No. The only units that have this, as far as I know, are squad leaders if they take the Bone Sword, and then it is only on 6's to wound (Life Drain). I think the Magus' staff is a Force Staff too.
#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.
#7 Not quite, but kinda. They automatically pass Look Out Sir! saves for the independent characters. I don't believe (but could be mistaken) that the squad sergeants get this.

Thank you for this. I didn't believe half of what i was being told. Friendly game, just chugged on you know?

Yeah so your opponent is cheating hard.. or hasn't actually read the rules and just made them up based on something he picked up from forums

 Yarium wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.

#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.

Unfortunately, the codex does not spell it out that you need a 6 for this. First time I read through it I also got the impression that any unit using Cult Ambush could assault on the turn it ambushes. tacking that bit at the end of the Cult Ambush rules without defining it as only on a result of a 6 kinda makes it appear to apply to the entirety of Cult Ambush, not just the 6 result. So unless it has been addressed in the FAQ, I can see this as an honest mistake. And have they re-written the FAQ that actually said Ambush could not assault at all on the turn they arrive?

Also, you mention re-rolling CA every time they come back in. Where is that stated? Don't recall seeing it but could easily have missed it.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.

#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.

Unfortunately, the codex does not spell it out that you need a 6 for this. First time I read through it I also got the impression that any unit using Cult Ambush could assault on the turn it ambushes. tacking that bit at the end of the Cult Ambush rules without defining it as only on a result of a 6 kinda makes it appear to apply to the entirety of Cult Ambush, not just the 6 result. So unless it has been addressed in the FAQ, I can see this as an honest mistake. And have they re-written the FAQ that actually said Ambush could not assault at all on the turn they arrive?

Also, you mention re-rolling CA every time they come back in. Where is that stated? Don't recall seeing it but could easily have missed it.

I think that's a common mis-read of the FAQ. The FAQ specifically says:

"Q: If they arrive from Cult Ambush, they're not arriving from Infiltrate as such. Does this mean they can charge?"
"A: No."

I think that is singling out people that thought you could set up using a 3-5 result and still charge. This clarifies that such units cannot do this. The result of 6 still gives you express permission to charge.

 Yarium wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.

#6 No. Not in the slightest. You need to have rolled a 6 on the Cult Ambush table.

Unfortunately, the codex does not spell it out that you need a 6 for this. First time I read through it I also got the impression that any unit using Cult Ambush could assault on the turn it ambushes. tacking that bit at the end of the Cult Ambush rules without defining it as only on a result of a 6 kinda makes it appear to apply to the entirety of Cult Ambush, not just the 6 result. So unless it has been addressed in the FAQ, I can see this as an honest mistake. And have they re-written the FAQ that actually said Ambush could not assault at all on the turn they arrive?

Also, you mention re-rolling CA every time they come back in. Where is that stated? Don't recall seeing it but could easily have missed it.

I think that's a common mis-read of the FAQ. The FAQ specifically says:

"Q: If they arrive from Cult Ambush, they're not arriving from Infiltrate as such. Does this mean they can charge?"
"A: No."

I think that is singling out people that thought you could set up using a 3-5 result and still charge. This clarifies that such units cannot do this. The result of 6 still gives you express permission to charge.

OK, how is it a mis-read? If they arrive from Cult Ambush... Did the unit arrive from CA? Yes or no? If yes, then can they charge? Answer - No. I understand from the previous thread in the rules forum that there was discussion on the draft pre-FAQ or whatever, but as written, that FAQ specifically states that ANY unit arriving from CA can not assault on the turn it arrives. Period. So without being part of that previous discussion and just reading the FAQ, what does it tell someone? Especially if they are the GSC opponent and don't want it to happen to them...

As for assaulting on results other than a 6, well, I already stated that I read it that way the first time I looked at it, and can still see how someone gets that impression. Nowhere in the blurb on assault first turn or turn they arrive does it state that it only applies on a result of a 6. The rule needs a re-write/errata/expanded FAQ to clarify all of this. One reason I haven't fielded my Cult yet, even tho I've been waiting how many years to be able to use my old miniatures again?

And people wonder why we're confused on the CA rules...

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Ynnari are those elves that shoot twice? How's that so different from elves that shoot once? Other than shooting twice?

Can't speak for Ynead, but my Ynari are CQC based, so they do play quite different, relying on sacrificial units and overwehlming the foe. different from other elves I think

Yeah. With Ynnari, you want to get a few really devastating units combined with smaller sacrificial units that take objectives in Maelstrom and then die as you shoot them off. This lets their bigger, meaner units fire twice - Or allows the player to keep an objective with a minimal points allocation.

I play a Kakophoni formation versus them. Tons of Strength 5, shreds, ignore cover shots with split fire. Throw in a few Night Lord raptors for permanent night fighting and you're doing all right.

 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

All in all i actually came out ahead, thanks to some good VP cards. He had no answer, weirdly, for my dakka predator (although by then his Patriarch was dead). But I didn't move from my starting position because he was always charging or spawning right on top of me. Literally like 6" away.

You were thoroughly cheated, or very misplayed.

If imperial, take an inquisitor with servos...GW ruled that they affect cult ambush during deployment, so take that and no turn 1 charges, or to be even safer, take 2 with 6 skulls, blanket the board with no ambush...

total cost: 68 points

They're absolutely top tier to the point I'm actually bringing Flamers in various lists just in case.

Being a Guerilla army that actually fights like a Guerilla force should and is supported in doing so by its rules, the GSC is very frustrating to deal with if you're used to standard set piece conventional engagements, just as how larger conventional armies have repeatedly been frustrated in trying to squash insurgencies in the real world. As there is no other army that really does guerilla tactics, at most outflanking or infiltrating some units here and there; the Cult requires skills to use and deal with that are not really taught to you by any other army outside of a handful of bizarre and not all that great gimmick builds. Thus when going against someone who knows how to use the cult while not really being used to the way they play it's not unusual to find yourself creamed because trying to fight them the way literally every other army fights each other is not something that's likely to work out all that well. They really are the most unique army in the game and I believe that's what contributes to people's difficulties in dealing with them as they can slip out of your grasp, tie up your best assets, strike where you don't want them to, and the optimal ways to play them tend to fly in the face of what most players have come to expect to be standard tactics.

They're not so much strong as they are really weird. They're like a character in a fighting game who almost seems to be working off of a somewhat different set of mechanics than what every other character is using (Ryu in Smash bros 4 for example); if you're used to dealing with the "normal" characters and nothing else you'll likely have a bad time, but if you can adjust to their oddness they're not too bad to deal with. You're almost guaranteed to lose against someone skilled with them if it's your first time against them though; barring some armies who hard counter them (like the Orks).

 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

#1: NO, the unit from the subterranean uprising can roll 2xd6 and only one of these units that included the primus can do 3xd6.
#2: NO, Big detachment gives +1 reserve but that means that these units still got to roll a 2+ with a single dice. However, the can use cult ambush after successful entering.
#3: YES/NO, units can go back in the shadows and replenish d6 casualties, so thats not full strength perse.
#4: YES, the got grenades except genestealers.
#5: NO, Only unit-leaders can get a bonesword (ap 3 instant death) but then the are not using they're rending claws. Metamorphs can use this with +2 strenght metamorph claw. furious charge + 1 strength psychic power could push Strength to 8 and that could mean instant death for a lot of enemy units.
#6: NO, only units that roll a 6. (who have you been playing against, jesus!?).
#7: YES, but only the Independent characters (not the icon bearer).

How many wounds do unit leaders have, and can you look out sir them? those boneswords are nasty.

The only game I've played with GSC was in a 2v2 4000 a side. GSC was my ally. We were against a double deathwatch army which alphaed almost all his units off the board on turn 1 (he got 0 first turn charges). This was also the first game I played with yynari eldar. I assumed the game was over but soulburst is just so stupidly broken I basically won a game with 2000 points of eldar and a few rubish units of straggling genestellers vs 4000 points of marines.

So I'd have to say no - GSC is not OP - Ynnari is OP - GSC is fodder. (btw I havn't played ynnari since - too broken)

 Marmatag wrote:
How many wounds do unit leaders have, and can you look out sir them? those boneswords are nasty.

They're pretty much just sergeants.
Pay 10 points to upgrade one guy in a squad to a leader (+1 attack and leadership, becomes a character). Then spend another 20 points to give them a bonesword, which lets them inflict instant death on a 6 to wound.
They're still just as squishy as regular acolytes though, except with the standard 4+ LoS that non-independent characters get.

Just one of those bonesword guys costs almost as much as a squad of 5 regular acolytes. So outside of summoned units, you don't normally see them...

 Marmatag wrote:
Only played them once, this is what happened:

Every unit got to roll 3 dice on the cult ambush table.
Every unit got multiple dice when rolling to enter from reserve.
Every unit could leave the board and replenish its numbers, returning the following turn at full strength and shooting / charging anywhere on the board.
All the units can charge and attack at initiative through difficult terrain.
Units with rending get instant death.
Every unit can charge the turn it ambushes.
Automatically pass look out sirs in every single unit.

Yeah they're strong. Very strong. Or my opponent really misplayed.

All in all i actually came out ahead, thanks to some good VP cards. He had no answer, weirdly, for my dakka predator (although by then his Patriarch was dead). But I didn't move from my starting position because he was always charging or spawning right on top of me. Literally like 6" away.

Sounds like you got cheated.

GSC can do many of these things, but not with every unit, every time.

Ork Boys, Wyches, Electropriests -- these all do very well against GSC.

It's kind of funny. It's like a pantheon of units that the Internet thinks are awful.

I've played my cities local GSC twice, first time I had no idea what to expect and he wiped the floor with me. Second I prepared and made sure that all my squads had flammer (I play IG) and I brought PCS with nothing but flamers/Heavy Flamers. We were playing Relic, and I got the objective almost to my table edge before he killed my last infantry squad, so I parked a tank atop of the sucker and recreated the the last fight scene from the movie "Fury." We tied for points.

I've mentioned this before, but Electropriests are really really good against GSC.

You have to time your use of Canticles really well, though.

Alcibiades wrote:
Ork Boys, Wyches, Electropriests -- these all do very well against GSC.

It's kind of funny. It's like a pantheon of units that the Internet thinks are awful.

Nah, Wyches are pretty garbage. The other two can do okay though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Ork Boys, Wyches, Electropriests -- these all do very well against GSC.

It's kind of funny. It's like a pantheon of units that the Internet thinks are awful.

Nah, Wyches are pretty garbage. The other two can do okay though.

Wyches have the high I to go first, and the Inv save to make Rending irrelevant.

What EPs can do to Genestealer Cultists with Litany of the Electromancer active is frightening to behold.

"Go ahead and charge me! Oh, I hit you with 30 S4 attacks at Initiative 10."

Alcibiades wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Ork Boys, Wyches, Electropriests -- these all do very well against GSC.

It's kind of funny. It's like a pantheon of units that the Internet thinks are awful.

Nah, Wyches are pretty garbage. The other two can do okay though.

Wyches have the high I to go first, and the Inv save to make Rending irrelevant.

What EPs can do to Genestealer Cultists with Litany of the Electromancer active is frightening to behold.

"Go ahead and charge me! Oh, I hit you with 30 S4 attacks at Initiative 10."

Wyches are still terrible, with 6+ armour Rending is irrelevant anyway. For a Wych squad to win a fight with Acolytes they need to cost double the points, equal numbers of Acolytes will butcher an equal number of Wyches.

And Electropriests themselves aren't too bad, they're problem is the complete lack of transports in their codex.

OMG. Wyches die to HAND FLAMERS, then.

Well I mean, Wyches generally regard having to wear clothes, nevermind armor in battle as a sign of weakness so their armor saves being garbage isn't too surprising. I'm sure the only reason Lelith even wears those leggings of hers is to make her model more distinct than if she just went into battle with a bikini. And the only reason she wears the bikini is because this game still considers minors a large market. And generally the Wych cults and Succubi as a whole wear less and less as they become more and more skilled to show that they're so good they don't need the protection or even the covering for their modesty (in other words it's mostly just a means to justify Elf tits being shown off on the battlefield in an army where everyone else looks like they were in Sauron's costuming department.)

Still, they're another in a long line of units supposedly iconic to an army that are just worthless.

Yeah wyches are really terrible guys, not only against genestealers. Their only "valuable" thing that they have is the 4+ invuln in close combat but with T3, one wound and 6+ armor you're going to lose a lot of models in a single round of shooting, and then their invuln wouldn't be enough to make them survive combat against almost any unit in the game that can fight. Only a few attacks, S3 no ap.... you may not kill a single genestealer in close combat.

 don_mondo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't your typical AM list have a lot of flamers, though?

Don't know about typical, but no, mine doesn't. I will usually have one Platoon Command with 4 flamers and those are the only ones in the army.

My AM TAC list does feature a good amount of Ignores Cover. While I do take a PCS with 4 flamers, the bulk of it comes from a Hellhound and an Eradicator serving as a side tank for my Pask unit. S6 AP4 template & large blast that Ignore Cover, one having PE meaning every hit will wound would probably wreck any GSC unit in LoS. I also like the Ignores Cover order from my CCS and try fishing for the Ignores Cover and 4+ Invul divination powers on my Primaris Psykers. I'm willing to bet that a GSC army that underestimates my list will have a bad time.

Plus I run Bullgryns, and if they can defeat a Riptide in CC then they can do anything

GSC might be "op" against the lowest tiers of armies, but in the more competitive bunch they are a far cry from op. The army swings hard and has some difficult matchups.

Bubblewrapping, smart use of reserves and some skew lists give them a hard time.

Sure, someone on /tg/ or wherever might cry how they can't "do anything" against GSC (among other things) but you should ignore those people, they're just bad at the game for real.

The FAQ significantly reduced tactical options during deployment CA. Eldar, the most allergic of armies, now has a tool to make a GSC players life more difficult with Strength From Death.

Martel732 wrote:
OMG. Wyches die to HAND FLAMERS, then.

Regularly, and with ease. Flamers in general are pure death to Dark Eldar thanks to the No Escape rule, drop pod in and use it on our open topped transports turn 1 and we don't even have FnP to protect ourselves.