Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a quick query, so Kharn has his special rule where he always hits his enemies on a 2+ regardless and the 30k Custodes list says that their shields I believe cause a -1 to hit.

So does this mean Kharn still hits on 2+ or 3+?

I know 30k and 40k aren't too comparable but games do occur.

Cheers

Since Kharn's entry says he always hits on a 2+, then the shields would be ignored because he always hits on a 2+. Note the FAQ answer about Kharn and invisibility - he still hits invisible units on a 2+ because he always hits on a 2+.

FAQ states that when two rules would cancel each other out it is the player whose turn it is to choose which happens first.

Dealer's choice.

Kharns to hit is a set value, it applies last after additive or subtractive modifiers. Much like a +1 to hit when you have to roll 6s due to snapfire means you use the set value as it's the last operation under multiple modifiers.

These aren't the same things that could cancel each other out, so there is no player picking based on turn, kharn will hit on a 2+.

Plus, the shield would not override "always hits on a 2+" unless it would specifically say it overrides that (probably the reasoning they used in their Kharn vs. invisibility ruling). But, as blaktoof points out, the order of modifiers also makes it so that the shield doesn't matter.

The only thing that can override Karen's set modifier is another set modifier, potentially.

What do you guys mean Kharn only hits on a 2+? I'm pretty sure he always hits something.

Though as everyone has said, he just hits on 2s. There is nothing that I know of that effects that.

ironically this is funny cause i just saw this rule before

with characteristics modifiers you go in this order (multiples,Bonuses/penalties, Flat modifiers)

SO a SM character with a powerfist and furious charge goes to Str 9, not STR 10 (4*2 = 8, 8+1 = 9)

With kharn it will be like this (to hit- WS vs WS, to hit - 1, to hit = 2+)

kharns rule overrides everything cause it is a flat bonus, and flat bonuses end last (hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

mchammadad wrote:
hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

Now this actually begs the question, if that is the case does that mean Tau can't use marker lights on culexus assassins?

Azoqu wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

Now this actually begs the question, if that is the case does that mean Tau can't use marker lights on culexus assassins?

They can still strip cover from them, but if it says "models always are treated as BS 1" then you could absolutely buff the BS of the Tau shooting him, it just wouldn't do any good. They'd still be treated as BS 1 when it's time to hit.

Azoqu wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

Now this actually begs the question, if that is the case does that mean Tau can't use marker lights on culexus assassins?

Markerlight do not give any bonuses to BS when used against a culexus, it was also clarified in the FAQ, it's cause of the rule order

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

Azoqu wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

Now this actually begs the question, if that is the case does that mean Tau can't use marker lights on culexus assassins?

They can still strip cover from them, but if it says "models always are treated as BS 1" then you could absolutely buff the BS of the Tau shooting him, it just wouldn't do any good. They'd still be treated as BS 1 when it's time to hit.

It depends on the source. Markerlights do affect the set value of Snap Shooting, but that is the only exception they carry.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only thing that can override Karen's set modifier is another set modifier, potentially.

So wait, does mean that Khârn is now a pretty swell GAL to be around?

Does a set modifier that would counter Khârn even exist? I was thinking possibly the Etherium on the Culexus, but that just makes everything hit at WS 1, which doesn't affect Khârn since he hits at 2+ regardless of what his WS is.

I don't know if one does exist, but it could potentially exist. I think that technically Invisibility would override Karn's ability if it hadn't been explicitly clarified how it works together.

Warlord titan

That's the only thing i can think about, cause of it's towering monstrosity( warlord) rule

which states non GMC or SHW roll to hit of a 6+

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't know if one does exist, but it could potentially exist. I think that technically Invisibility would override Karn's ability if it hadn't been explicitly clarified how it works together.

I think it would have made the most sense to have his attacks rolled as normal. But, it isn't like Khârn is otherwise broken, so I'll give him this corner case.

mchammadad wrote:
Warlord titan

That's the only thing i can think about, cause of it's towering monstrosity( warlord) rule

which states non GMC or SHW roll to hit of a 6+

That could do it. Its technically a more specific rule than Karn's rule.

Of course this would require a game to occur with both Karn and a Warlord Titan to occur, and then for Karn to actually make it across the table into melee with the Warlord. At which point I think Ragnarok has begun and the question is moot

mchammadad wrote:
ironically this is funny cause i just saw this rule before

with characteristics modifiers you go in this order (multiples,Bonuses/penalties, Flat modifiers)

SO a SM character with a powerfist and furious charge goes to Str 9, not STR 10 (4*2 = 8, 8+1 = 9)

With kharn it will be like this (to hit- WS vs WS, to hit - 1, to hit = 2+)

kharns rule overrides everything cause it is a flat bonus, and flat bonuses end last (hence shooting at a culexus is always @ BS 1, just like snap shots!)

Well apart from set value applied last pretty much every kid learns this like in first few years in school

 Grey Templar wrote:
That could do it. Its technically a more specific rule than Karn's rule.

More specific overriding less specific/more general isn't a rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Warlord titan

That's the only thing i can think about, cause of it's towering monstrosity( warlord) rule

which states non GMC or SHW roll to hit of a 6+

That could do it. Its technically a more specific rule than Karn's rule.

Of course this would require a game to occur with both Karn and a Warlord Titan to occur, and then for Karn to actually make it across the table into melee with the Warlord. At which point I think Ragnarok has begun and the question is moot

i would pay to watch this

Eldar Phantom Titans and Revenant Titans have a special rule called Wraith Titan.

Wraith Titan: When attacked in close combat by models that are not Super-heavy Walkers or Gargantuan Creatures that are not Swooping, a Wraith Titan can only be hit on a 6 regardless of Weapon Skill or other considerations.

So yeah without actually calling it out, it does take into account Kharn's special rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't know if one does exist, but it could potentially exist. I think that technically Invisibility would override Karn's ability if it hadn't been explicitly clarified how it works together.

Which is probably an indication of how they want to handle other set modifiers against Kharn, at least other set modifiers that don't say "always hit on". "Always hits on x" set value changes look to trump "hits on y" set value changes.