Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started with RT (in 1987).

Favourite memories of those days:

Playing on a sand table with friends where the terrain would be carved out for each game.

Played about 6 games of 2nd ed. Don't recall any. Had eldar. Pop-up attacks made them not popular, even against overwatch.

3rd ed. First game of it involved a trenchline table, and my eldar doing a jetbike trench run down it to wipe out the dark angel HQ (it was a wide enough trench to fit jetbikes).

4th&5th eds, nothing stands out. Played GK for both. Still managed to lose games.

I dropped out of the game when 6th hit. I slowly downsized the 5 armies I had (didn't automatically dump everything when I stopped playing the game, miniatures can be used in other rulesets).

Its fascinating to me to see how the game and story evolved as the company evolved. Each edition very much seems like a product of the era in which they were created. I'm old enough to have played roleplaying games and strategy games in the 80s (but never 40k, it was too expensive for me ), and the original rule sets don't seem any different then the games I played back then.
But as the game became more of a war game and the miniatures and terrain were more heavily emphasized, the game changed in scale and ruleset.

The story elements really seems to have been established from 2nd edition, but the tone has changed over time. It started as this dystopian sci fi universe but it had room for some silly and fun elements (seriously, the old noise marines?). Then there is the Grimdark universe, where everything was nihilistic and gothic and dark, but very cool and interesting at the same time. Finally, now, you see them trying to shift the tone and the look of the universe to give the dying races of the Eldar and the Imperium some kind of hope. I need to do some more outlining of the shift in tone of the 40k universe.

I'm getting that Space wolves and Eldar and Necrons were top armies in 2nd ed. I know what the top armies were in 5th to 7th. My question: what were the top armies/units in 3rd and 4th edition? What made them so tough?

Loving all the memories guys, I'll use some of them in the podcast. Honestly, its what makes the game fun for me.

Vashones wrote:
The story elements really seems to have been established from 2nd edition, but the tone has changed over time. It started as this dystopian sci fi universe but it had room for some silly and fun elements (seriously, the old noise marines?). Then there is the Grimdark universe, where everything was nihilistic and gothic and dark, but very cool and interesting at the same time. Finally, now, you see them trying to shift the tone and the look of the universe to give the dying races of the Eldar and the Imperium some kind of hope. I need to do some more outlining of the shift in tone of the 40k universe.

I started at almost the very beginning of 3rd edition, when a lot of the existing fluff and models were still 2nd edition. They definitely got rid of a lot of the more overt humor, but I always thought that the over-the-top grimdark nature of 40k was actually part of the humor. Dialing up the brutality, horror and lack of hope to such ridiculous levels was actually a kind of humor in itself. Kind of like how people making a cheesy horror movie might be aware that they're making a cheesy horror movie and deliberately dial up the camp. Or how the Zombie Survival Guide was written as a comedy book but the thing that makes it funny is that internally it is reads as if it were completely serious.

At least, that's the way I looked at it. It might be all in my head.

That's one concern I have about them moving the plot forward in 40k. I think it's necessary for plot advancement that they give the Imperium and the Eldar some amount of hope. It's also necessary for them to write in reasons why they can advance the story without the Tyranids/Necrons/Chaos destroying everything. However, I hope they don't make the Imperium too good, reasonable and efficient. The main human faction being "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" and a twisted mockery of everything its god emperor wanted is part of what made 40k so grimdark. I think the ridiculous amount of grimdark is part of what makes 40k fun and funny.

Vashones wrote:
Its fascinating to me to see how the game and story evolved as the company evolved. Each edition very much seems like a product of the era in which they were created.

For me, this is one of the most important aspect of 40K as a whole experience/phenomenon. This game has it's real-life history older than my country's newest iteration (proper historical name of Poland is Trzecia Rzeczpospolita, meaning "Third Republic", as we regained our soveregnty in 1989 after half of century under Soviet 'occupation'). Some changes "embedded" in 40K editions history reflect not only changing market, but also changing social habits and technical progress in the last 30 years. There is a whole "another layer" to 40K than rules/gameplay/models...

In 3rd and 4th edition named characters like Marneus Calgar and Old One Eye did not appear in normal games. If I remember correctly, when someone wanted to use a named character both players had to agree, and it was usually done for narrative purposes when recreating a famous battle or campaign that featured that character. I'm not sure when named special characters being in regular lists became a thing. Maybe it was always a thing and my local meta just discouraged it?

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
In 3rd and 4th edition named characters like Marneus Calgar and Old One Eye did not appear in normal games. If I remember correctly, when someone wanted to use a named character both players had to agree, and it was usually done for narrative purposes when recreating a famous battle or campaign that featured that character. I'm not sure when named special characters being in regular lists became a thing. Maybe it was always a thing and my local meta just discouraged it?

I don't recall any official rules limiting the use of named characters in 3rd, but it was a common practice in 2nd ed to play tournaments without Special Characters, because of this whole Herohammer thing, and it might just prevailed onto 3rd...

Edit: ok, I grabbed my 3rd ed Eldar Codex and indeed there is a restriction, that both players must agree on using Special Characters. Additionaly, Eldrad could only be taken in 2000pts+ games.

In third you had to have your opponent's permission to play special characters, and for some reason nobody even asked, they just didn't use them. This was at the local GW. Other characters (Abaddon etc.) could only be fielded in 2000 point games AND required permission. I think that was still the case in 4th

It was cool playing the game at a time where in depth unit selection and tactical advice wasn't just a click away like it is now. Not that it's a bad thing, but it was fun having to figure it out for yourself. Looking back I severely underrated some units and massively overrated others. The game definitely lost some magic when I started applying math hammer to everything

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
It was cool playing the game at a time where in depth unit selection and tactical advice wasn't just a click away like it is now. Not that it's a bad thing, but it was fun having to figure it out for yourself.

Along a similar lines, it used to be a lot harder to cross-reference official fluff from GW. People used to only know what came in the books they purchased, and nobody could afford all of the books and many might be out of print and hard to get. Add to that GW's habit of putting out contradictory information. It made talking about the fluff with other players feel like you were discussing hidden knowledge gleaned from obscure old texts at a conclave of weirdo cultists. It was really fun, as long as people weren't know-it-all jerks.

That said, I really like the ability to jump on Lexicanum or some other website and then follow their source links to the originals.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
In third you had to have your opponent's permission to play special characters, and for some reason nobody even asked, they just didn't use them. This was at the local GW. Other characters (Abaddon etc.) could only be fielded in 2000 point games AND required permission. I think that was still the case in 4th.

That is really interesting, I did not know that! The characters would seem more special if you only broke them out for themed or larger games.

Started in 2nd ed..

Watching a Ultramarines Libarian throw a Vortex grenade at my Deathcompony just to have it scatter 2" behind him and send Calgur into the Warp... then in the following turn to try and save the same Libarian in combat with said death co.. Shoots him in the face with a Krak missile

in 3rd ed.. having my Death Co. get out of their rhino to just be run down by a grav tank.. then arguing that fearless didn't mean stupid for an hour.. Proved my point by then turning the rhino around and running down his Firedragons with Phoenix lord

I was first introduced to the Warhamer 40,000 by the game Dawn of War. I played that game with absolutely no prior knowledge of Warhammer in any way, as a hobby, as a game, as a setting, anything. I played through the game, and there was just something captivating about the idea of super-human soldiers in powered armor fighting Orks and Daemons in a galactic scale. Well, that, and the awesome voice of Gabriel Angelos, Captain of the Blood Ravens. With that voice narrating the game's events, something about it resonated with me on a deep level. Finish up Dawn of War and its two expansions, a couple Google searches later, and I was hooked for life. My brother had already played the game through, and had already picked his army.

I started in 5th edition, 2009/2010 holiday season. I jumped into the game looking at Daemonhunters (what Grey Knights were called two Codices (codexes?) back, Tau (when they were a sub-optimal army), and Imperial Guard. I ended up going with Imperial Guard, and my younger brother picked Space Marines. We jumped in head first, poring over our Codices (codexes?), studied the rulebook more than our own college textbooks, and kept trying to push our talents and skills on painting and simple conversions. We were hooked in a big way.

Some of my best memories of the game were our early games where we were trying out new rules, new units, and coming up with our own characters. We started naming characters, planets, systems, naming vehicles, and creating tales of our exploits on the table. Our "arms race" of escalating our armies from nothing, building counters to each other's army, and then countering those new units, and then countering those. Those were some of my favorite times in playing the game were those early games where we knew nothing of how the game truly worked, learned it together, and started our own little wars on the tabletop, forging narratives and homebrewed fluff based on our games. THAT is what is great abut this game, IMHO. Since then, my best memories are of creating games with certain players. Memorable moments of ridiculous dice rolls changing the game, or even just making things happen in unexpected ways. Special big games, narrative campaigns (however short-lived), and escalation leagues for fun.

The people playing the game make all the difference in the world, not the rules. The models and fluff will bring you into the game, but it's the people that foster the experiences that keep bringing us back. Cheesy, WWAC TFG players will exist no matter the edition, as they will try to break the game no matter what whether it's the Leafblower list, a bunch of Heldrakes and Ally shenanigans, Super-heavies or Gargantuan Creatures throwing out D-strength template weapons, or using crazy formations - these are the worst memories in playing the game is dealing with these power-lists. But for each one of those games that was a chore to play, I have had a dozen fun, relaxed gaming moments that make the game worth it. After this past year, I have sworn off tournaments entirely to focus on fun games with fun people, painting models, and spending time with my family (which also includes wargaming ). I would rather have fewer, better games than try to keep up with the types of players who are seeking a different experience than I am.

Holy cow, I just realized that I have been into Warhammer/miniature wargaming for over 7 years now. I can't think of anything else that I have done for that long. Is that a good thing? Goodness gracious

 chromedog wrote:


Playing on a sand table with friends where the terrain would be carved out for each game.

I remember one vacation out in the woods (Missouri Ozarks). Couple of us had our armies and we staked out a 4x6 piece of the ground and played in the 'jungle'... REAL cover! My Catachan IG felt right at home.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
It was cool playing the game at a time where in depth unit selection and tactical advice wasn't just a click away like it is now. Not that it's a bad thing, but it was fun having to figure it out for yourself.

Along a similar lines, it used to be a lot harder to cross-reference official fluff from GW. People used to only know what came in the books they purchased, and nobody could afford all of the books and many might be out of print and hard to get. Add to that GW's habit of putting out contradictory information. It made talking about the fluff with other players feel like you were discussing hidden knowledge gleaned from obscure old texts at a conclave of weirdo cultists. It was really fun, as long as people weren't know-it-all jerks.

That said, I really like the ability to jump on Lexicanum or some other website and then follow their source links to the originals.

Very true. Lexicanum and forums like this are a great resource.

I remember people in the store talking about Grey Knight terminators back in 3rd before a codex was released for them, and presumably their rules only existed in a White Dwarf I didn't have. There was a certain mystery to fluff and rules you couldn't access but people occasionally referenced in conversation. A friend had Legion of the Damned models but neither of us had any idea what they were, and couldn't even decide if they were chaos or loyalist. Pure fluff was even more mysterious. The brief references to primarchs and the Great Crusade in the BRB and codices seemed all the more epic for the lack of detail, and as much as I love the HH series it seems a shame that the mythological element has been lost.

Lament wrote:

Rainbow warriors my first ever marine chapter now dust and gone.
Imperial guard land speeders and bald conscripts
Human bombs being a legit troop choice........ well prior to today's politically correct environment
I
-snip-

Robots required you to learn more rules than anything else

Rainbow Warriors were my chapter of choice too. I wanted something different from the usual four (at that stage Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultra Marines or Dark Angels were the usual suspects) and figured that almost no-one else would pick Rainbow Warriors. That was something else that was a lot more prevalent though in RT, which was more contemporary references like the Rainbow Warriors (An obvious reference to the Greenpeace ship of the same name), Gazkhull (Whose extended name is apparently famously based on Margaret Thatcher), an uncomplimentary reference to the UK city of Birmingham (AKA The Black Planet). Although some hint of that survived with examples like Sly Marbo and lives on with Gazkhull, it's largely gone now.

I'd forgotten the old RT Robot rules flow charts, they worked almost like BASIC programming. IIRC didn't you have to pay points for each step on the programme, robots then more or less did their own think but the better (and more expensive) programme you wrote the more capable they were?

I still have some human bombs somewhere, there was a trick you could (ab)use to give them a gun of some sort, their only issued equipment was an explosive harness and knife, but you could re-allocate kit throughout the army, so if you paid for rolls on the Random Equipment tables for Officers it was perfectly permissable to allocate that equipment to a Bomb up to and including Jokaero Digital weapons, Special or Heavy weapons. Even if you didn't do that a favoured Sergeant could easily donate a Las pistol, at least. Imperial Guard Beastman squads were another Abhuman branch that got lost over the years.

As for Marines and their +1T, I got that impression from the Marine army list in the Compendium, although again IIRC Grey Knights got an army list in Slaves to Darkness that predates that, but is specific to them. Was there an older generic list that predated that?

I can also recall when any faction in the game could be turned to Chaos and you we're encouraged to occasionally roll on the Fantasy table for your 40K Renegade's retinue. Bolt Gun armed 40K Skaven? Sure, why not... And of course the Chaos Renegade's poor loyal relations, Sensei warbands. D1000 mutation tables. Guidelines for creating your own Chaos gods.

I also remember when Bolters were portrayed as effective but crude and available to practically everyone with opposable thumbs, they were the Ork's weapon of choice and a fair number of my Rainbow Warriors carry Ork "Bolters".

IIRC Grey Knight Terminator squads were 2,000 points a piece, at a time when that was considered a standard army size. But they could be horribly effective, being all effectively top level Librarians.

I was introduced to 40k with the 2nd ed box set but it was a year or so later before I began collecting and painting my own harlequins "army". I played maybe two games with them before going all space wolves.
What were games like with that edition?
My experience of gaming in 2nd ed. went like this. My mates in our little after school club would spend most of out limited time setting up our extensive 2000ptarmies of endlessly customised, converted and counts-as troops complete with tanks, walkers, bikes and super-hero HQ characters with decks of wargear cards. Now all this was lots of fun, we set 'em up and bragged about how unbeatable our armies were until we were all inevitably beaten by the clock having played maybe two turns before home time.
Now obviously a lot of the problem was organisation. We were kids and had no one of any experience organising games at sensible points limits with a view to actually finishing a game. But a lot of it was down to rules too. Lots of them. Special rules were as abundant as the choice of troops types and load outs. There was no way you could know what your opponent would bring because almost anyone could bring almost anything.
And we did! We deployed Ogryns from fast moving chimeras right into the midst of Eldar firing lines. We totally loaded woflguard terminators to the absolute teeth, yes just like Lament mentioned. My mate's demon possessed Leman Russ battle tank was virtually invulnerable.
The game was really designed just for small skirmishes but we wanted everything all the time including all the clearly broken units and beardy as feth options. We loved our crazy broken game. We were the unswerving prophets of our chosen factions and our codex was our bible. The stories and images it held captured our imagination and enthusiasm. I still hold that 2nd ed codexes are some of the finest publications GW ever produced. Then came 3rd ed.

The massive streamlining of the rules were sorely needed. The simplification of universal special rules went a long way to understanding your opponents capabilities on more than just his say so. But my experience was very similar to what nou described. Disappointing codexes, stripped of all the beautiful content, our beloved characters gone or horribly crippled (the Avatar of Khaine had been brutally castrated). We looked back wistfully at our old dexes now reduced to something less than lore. We saw massive drop off in interest in 40k in our group (truth be told the kids coming up took up the 40k flame and never looked back.) My mates and I got into Necromunda in a big way and honestly it was late 4th ed. before I ever played 40k again. (This time as Nids, check out 4th ed. Codex Tyranids, it's a thing of beauty) I had rejoined the astral choir just in time to be slapped by 5th ed.
Ok it was hardly a slap, more like a minor errata update, and by this stage Codexes were back, properly back. Big and dense and full of options (most of which were available in resin through Forge World) But gone was the White Dwarf of yester-year replaced by something resembling a glossy catalogue. (Which no doubt boosted sales which paid for the people (albeit Matt Ward) and time it takes to put out nice big juicy Codexes) anyway. I did most of my proper 40k gaming then in 5th edition. As Imperial guard, as Orks, as Raven Guard Space Marines, as Nids. My friends and I were all much older more experienced gamers now and it was a much better game system for the kinds of things we wanted to do.
One of my all time favourite games is a last stand "sell your lives dearly" game. One player takes an 850pts no FOC restrictions force from his codex and the other player throws wave after wave of randomly generated units at them. The last standers wrack up as many kills as they can and we crunch the numbers when they're all dead.

We used proper rules for our own little tournament and we made the most of it before we had kids and responsibilities. But now, honestly, I've lost touch with 40k on the whole. When I teach my two young boys to play it'll be 7th ed WFB and 5th ed 40k because those are the rules I know best and have the books for. They can take it from there in whatever direction they want to go I suppose.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
In third you had to have your opponent's permission to play special characters, and for some reason nobody even asked, they just didn't use them. This was at the local GW. Other characters (Abaddon etc.) could only be fielded in 2000 point games AND required permission. I think that was still the case in 4th

Such a dumb rule. The stigma got so bad (despite myself and my opponent agreeing) that a certain staffer in GW (whom I would not piss on if he was on fire, but that's another story) loudly declares after seeing our game in progress "ALL SPECIAL CHARACTERS NOW SUDDENLY EXPLODE! GET THEM OFF THE TABLE!".

Our group started with Rogue Trader and two boxes of the plastic marines spit between five players. Those first few games were nothing but marines vs. marines until it turned into a game of rocket tag with the across-the-baord missile launcher guys.

Our group eventually split into a marine player (me), an Eldar player, an Orc player and two Chaos players - one who later switched to genestealers/tyranids when Space Hulk came out (and Zoats were still a thing).

I remember building a cardboard version of a Land Raider (which I still have) by upscaling a model from Space Marine/Epic. I don't remember how long it actually was, but around that time it felt like the game was changing every week, what with Chapter Approved articles and such coming out.

2E Wargear cards created one of the crazier moments, where an entire orc detachment was wiped out by the second turn by a Virus grenade. And then there was the Culedex assasin who dodged three Vortex grenades tossed at him. And the poor (lone) guardsman who spent the entire game running from the Avatar of Khaine, who with his hand outstretched kept murmuring "I'm coming for you!"

I bailed out of 40K, during 2nd ed I believe, after a time when all the other players (we had grown to a group of 10) switched over to Chaos and bought Chaos forces. At the time, I still only had my basic marines and the Land Raider I'd made (which no one would let me field; it was "too good"). After having my head handed to me in one egragious battle against my brother involving a chaos sorcerer on a Juggernaut turning my marines into pink horrors, I gave up on the game. Still collected the models and the board games, but wouldn't touch actually playing 40K proper.

Somewhere along the way (late 3rd, early 4th?), I picked up a Tau army and painted it, but after hearing some of my fellow's war stories, chickened out of playing. Didn't really get to use them beyond a "practice" battle or two until 6E. But did quickly realize that the gunline played to my preferred playstyle.

When the Necrons were redone at the end of 5th edition, I picked up an army, and a Chaos army for my son, who'd just been introduced to my old copy of Dawn of War. I've been playing off and on with him since then, but have been wary of doing any sort of tournament.

In 2015, I did finally play in a beginner's league using Tyranids (my son ended up playing my Necrons in that league), starting with 300 pts. And eventually reaching up to 900. I won one game out of the six or so I played; and it was apparent by the 2nd game (the one I did win), how the wind was blowing with the army. It left me with an extremely sour taste in my mouth and I have since been determined to write my own ruleset for the game to play the way I wish the game worked - because it sure doesn't match the fluff.

I remember when power armor belonged in ABC warriors, when hive worlds were in Nemesis the Warlock, where Torquemada was the evil ruler of the Humans (Terminators) who spread out to cleanse the galaxy from Xeno filth. I remember when gene seeds were biochips on weapons in Rogue Trooper and where mutants were abhorred and purged in Strontium Dog. Where Pyskers were feared in Judge Dredd and...

and....

I remember when the majority of 40K wasn't 40K

I started quite young at about 8/9 years old not long after the release of third edition. I specifically remember how soon after it was as I was first introduced by my friends older brother who had a huge collection but was still feeling his way through the new rule set, which made his early guidance less than reliable.

Not much in terms of memories remains in the form of specifics from those days apart from one specific game where my Ultramarines (yes they were my first army and continue to be my chosen faction) and my best friends Space Wolves made a defiant last stand against what seemed like a sea of gaunts played by his brother. Between both of us, only about 9 at the time, we cant have had more than 50 marines all together but it was, by a mile, the biggest game we had played and really captured my imagination. By the time I got to secondary school at the age of 10 I had acquired Orks, Chaos Marines and some Eldar and was more than ecstatic that the school had a Warhammer club. There were far more kids there playing Fantasy but a few of us had 40k and at about that time I started playing in the local GW.

This exposure to new played made me feat Tyranids on a whole new level.
The Eldar Avatar was also something I learned to run from.
Other little things I remember was the shear number of blister packs on the walls of the GW, I'd easily spend hours pulling them down and tipping them inside to get a look at all the detail (nothing compared to todays possibilities).
I specifically remember having Marneus Calgar (my beautiful old metal boy) punching a grown mans Carnifex to death in combat and feeling like I was the equal of someone easily in his mid to late 20s, a proper grown up in the eyes of a 10/11 year old.

I remember the release of the Tau and knew I had to get some but couldn't keep up with the older players who weren't getting by on pocket money and the proliferation of battle suit armies really irked me. I drifted away from the hobby by the ages of about 13 as drinking under a bypass and trying hopelessly to chase girls became much more appealing but I have returned in my mid 20s with a vengeance, almost religiously reacquiring OOP metal minis in a sort of reminiscent longing for childish excitement. The game itself isn't too different and I found picking up the rules reasonably easy as it's obviously just an evolved version of 3rd edition.

I've found some of that excitement in new games where I've had single marines hold out over impossible odds to camp an objective on their own for multiple turns or ones had a single sniper scout club the Chaos Spawn that slew his squad to death before first downing another in overwatch before it cold reach him quickly followed by him precision shotting and then rending the last wound off my opponents Lord to give me the Slay the Warlord to win an objective game.

Lately I've had Calgar return to the battlefield to have his Landraider blown from beneath him before his rage brought his eyes upon the enemy Chapter Master, calling down his orbital Bombardment and Instant deathing his target in revenge.

Also recently had a lucky Devastator snap shoot a Storm Raven out of the sky to crash and burn killing half the Death Company marines inside and blowing the arm off the underslung DC dreadnought. Unfortunately for him the contents ended up in the middle of a ring of my units and were quickly boltered to death and the dreadnought Exploded by a punch from the power fist of my own ven dread that showed no mercy. Roughly 500 points of Blood Angels removed in one turn for the cost of exactly zero casualties. Thank you lady luck.

Edit: Oh and I almost forgot the most annoying thing for me... The requirement for you to sit for almost an hour holding metal railguns onto the shoulders of your broadsides waiting for the superglue to hold it sufficiently before the top-heavy thing toppling over in its first game and/or snapping it's skinny little ankles.