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So the Ynnari rules have been out for a little while now, and we've had some post-FAQ time to play around with them. What does everyone think of them so far? I've had some opponents be less than enthusiastic about fire dragons and wraith guard soul bursting to shoot at key targets, but that could partially be chalked up to them not being accustomed to planning for soul bursts.

My impressions so far:

* Strength From Death is far less useful for melee units than I thought it might be thanks to the FAQs.
* Harlequins are much easier to work into an army now that I don't have to use their restrictive formations to do so. I'm even looking at trying out pure harlequins (with some sort of HQ support) using a reborn warhost.
* My dark eldar only rarely miss power from pain, but they're also less likely to benefit from soulburst considering most shooty true kin are riding in transports. Soulbursts make it really easy for reavers to zip away from a scary thing that looks at them funny.
* I'm wondering about trying multiple reborn warhosts with MSU dark eldar using unconventional units. Sacrificial hellions, beasts, and reavers, for instance, that user their own deaths to bolster other units.
*The Ulthwe strikeforce is rough, but you're probably better off running it as non-ynnari if you're using guardians or war walkers. Battle focus makes this formation devastating.
* Just how good Strength From Death is depends heavily on how you and your opponent agree to handle rules issues not covered by the GW FAQ.

Everyone hates it in my area.

Apparently, I am a cheesy WAAC player for running harlequin and beastpack based Ynari

Most of what I've heard is "why would you take the non-craftworld units anyway?", but granted I haven't seen anyone actually play it yet. Most of the players I know locally still play CE or Marines, or would never play Ynnari simply because they're too in love with their choice army.

From what I can see they're a bit like GS Cults. Powerful, but primarily because they operate quite differently from most other armies. Without making use of Soulburst they are flat-out awful.

Without Soulburst, they're an army of mostly-Craftworlders without the benefits of Obsec and Battle Focus that actually make Craftworld armies half-decent.

People can cry from the rooftops about how OP they are, but genuinely all I'll think is that those people are more used to winning by list-building rather than actually thinking about unit placement and target priority.

 Melissia wrote:
Most of what I've heard is "why would you take the non-craftworld units anyway?", but granted I haven't seen anyone actually play it yet. Most of the players I know locally still play CE or Marines, or would never play Ynnari simply because they're too in love with their choice army.

I think there are a couple of DEldar units that work nicely in Ynnari armies. Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges are really nice as they're damn cheap for their offensive output when you compare them to Fire Dragons + transport. Deep Strike them in, waste a vehicle and either Soulburst into cover or waste another vehicle on the same turn.

Reaver Jetbikes could also be useful even with the FAQ reducing the effectiveness of CC. Cluster Caltrops hit at I10, meaning that you can wipe a depleted unit with them and charge into another for your regular attacks. If you're lucky you could pull the same trick with Incubi as the Klaivex is I6 and the rest are I5.

Oh, and tax-less Shadowseers are pure, unadulterated gold.

As a pure buffed ranged CWE they are terrifying.

Buffing up some under used stuff from DE or Harlequins? it's great.
You can ally in your harlequins with just one extra HQ.

Strength from death is better the combat drugs. It's more reliable and stragnely fluffy dor DE send in fodder to get killed and their death and killing empowers their friends.

Marines just charged your guardians and ate them up? countercharge with your wall of wraithguard.

you still get combat drugs as Ynari.

I have never played it or against it only seen it played and it looks very powerful. I personally would be very hesitant about playing against it unless I brought cheese of my own however i have always been that way about 7th edition craftworld eldar.

Earth127 wrote:
As a pure buffed ranged CWE they are terrifying.

How exactly?
The having to be within 7" means that the Ynnari have to operate at dangerously close range, and the craftworld units that do well at short range are more likely going to want/need battle focus more to either get in range or get out of dodge (Which they get a guaranteed run move rather than a possible move/second shooting etc.)

Unless the Ynnari player is fighting against piddly minimum sized units they seem unlikely to get to soulburst often.

It's not like Space Elves already didn't already piledrive my Tyranids and Orks into the dirt anyway. Them bodyslamming them in a slightly different way doesn't even phase me.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
you still get combat drugs as Ynari.

I'm assuming that they meant Power from Pain, and i agree that SfD is exactly what PfP should have been to begin with.

Jbz` wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
As a pure buffed ranged CWE they are terrifying.

How exactly?
The having to be within 7" means that the Ynnari have to operate at dangerously close range, and the craftworld units that do well at short range are more likely going to want/need battle focus more to either get in range or get out of dodge (Which they get a guaranteed run move rather than a possible move/second shooting etc.)

Unless the Ynnari player is fighting against piddly minimum sized units they seem unlikely to get to soulburst often.

Exactly. They play completely differently from CWE.

Whereas Craftworlders want to dance around at range JSJ-ing behind cover with their range/battlefocus run moves if you do that with Ynnari you just end up with a load of dead Ynnari as they're stuck in the open so you can only jump back behind cover when one of your units is already dead.

One of the tricks with Ynnari is that you want to use Soulburst from your opponent's units as well as yours, so you need to be up close and personal. Something that your average CWE netlist wants to avoid like the plague.

They're definitely bothing like 'buffed CWE'. Especially seeing as they lose Obsec.

GW found a way to make CWE even more broken. No thanks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
From what I can see they're a bit like GS Cults. Powerful, but primarily because they operate quite differently from most other armies. Without making use of Soulburst they are flat-out awful.

Without Soulburst, they're an army of mostly-Craftworlders without the benefits of Obsec and Battle Focus that actually make Craftworld armies half-decent.

You mean, aside from sub 300pt GC's, 35pt Fearless T6 D weapons, scatterbikes, awesome APC's, fearsome psychic capabilities, powerful formations and BS5 Aspect Warriors, and more?

Many of the best and most powerful Eldar lists don't actually make all that much use of ObSec or Battle Focus.

People can cry from the rooftops about how OP they are, but genuinely all I'll think is that those people are more used to winning by list-building rather than actually thinking about unit placement and target priority.

Well, target priority matters less when a single Jetbike unit packs more mid-range firepower than an entire IG gunline will

Par for the course for a modern codex (which IG aren't sadly), although admittedly on the strong side. Need i mention free transports in a Gladius, or the stunning rules the latest Imperial triumvirates have come with?

I may well eat my hat when tournament results start coming in, but from where i am they don't seem nearly as OP as people say. They just need different tactics to rip apart. Deplete but don't destroy units outright, using your advantage of obsec to stop them running away with maelstrom due to having lots of small units still remaining. Pay attention to positioning so that each of the units you destroy doesn't cause a chain of soulbursting actions.

Oh, and they'll suck at killpoints

I've found they're incredibly powerful for 'assault Eldar' armies. If you are still trying to play JSJ or Kite armies then they're seemingly much weaker. Melee Wraithknights are much stronger as are Wraithguard bombs from Webway taxis since they can likely double-tap.

As Ynneadwraith said, you want to get in close and hug your opponent. Then you're proc'ing off both his/her units and your own. I had one opponent kill a pack of Wyches and start to regret it when it gave the Solitaire a second 12" move leading to a 1st turn charge into his Rapiers.

How are melee Wraithknights more powerful? I feel I'm missing a trick!

Is it that they can wipe one unit with their D attack and then Soulburst into another for Stomps? Or is it more catapulting them up into the opponent's face early on?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
How are melee Wraithknights more powerful? I feel I'm missing a trick!

Is it that they can wipe one unit with their D attack and then Soulburst into another for Stomps? Or is it more catapulting them up into the opponent's face early on?

Both?

Jbz` wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
How are melee Wraithknights more powerful? I feel I'm missing a trick!

Is it that they can wipe one unit with their D attack and then Soulburst into another for Stomps? Or is it more catapulting them up into the opponent's face early on?

Both?

Yeah it's both. Wiping out a unit on the charge to 2nd charge and stomp another is great. You can also surround them with your weaker units during deployment so if the weak units fall to an alpha strike the Wraithknight can immediately close a big chunk of the gap.

Shooting WK's Soulburst too, obviously, but since you can't use the Forgeworld ones it's 'just' 2 more D-Shots. Not as huge.

Audustum wrote:

Yeah it's both. Wiping out a unit on the charge to 2nd charge and stomp another is great. You can also surround them with your weaker units during deployment so if the weak units fall to an alpha strike the Wraithknight can immediately close a big chunk of the gap.

Shooting WK's Soulburst too, obviously, but since you can't use the Forgeworld ones it's 'just' 2 more D-Shots. Not as huge.

Well, they could use the Suncannon variety with shoulder weapons,
Jump/deep strike within 7" of any heavy infantry, lay waste, then do the same to another squad (That's within soulburst range of another of the Ynnari units)


I think Wraithknights are one of the few OTT CWE units that truly benefits from soul burst

Ah gotcha I still don't think it's as powerful as people think if it's played cleverly against.

Certainly the 'catapulting up the field' is dependent on your opponent shooting the chaff units that are within 7" of it.

I can think of some pretty solid anti-Ynnari tactics actually (most of them work quite nicely using Ynnari funnily enough, but mainly for access to FoC slots without the taxes).

Things like having a lot of Death Jesters scooting around, shooting units and either running them off the board (in which case Ynnari don't get to Soulburst), or just pulling them out of 7" distance from another friendly unit and then lighting them up with whatever firepower you have.

Couple that with whittling down but not wiping out units that you can't pull out of Soulburst range and you've effectively neutered the only thing that makes this army competitive.

Reborn Warhost + Aspect Host is just basically playing Craftworld Eldar cheddar but with all the soul burst procing extra attacks. What people keep forgetting is that its anything dying procs it so if you kill a nearby unit of scat bikes then its two buddies 7" away can soul burst another shooting attack. Units like Warp Spiders end up in the thick of it anyway while Scatter bikes don't lose out of anything by sacrificing battle focus. Obsec doesn't matter when there is nothing left alive to contest objectives.

Playing against this mess was basically like all the rage people have about Tau overwatch except it keep triggering during both player turns and it kept chain procing over and over again. Interesting rule set but in no way, shape, or form should Craftworld Eldar should of been given this level of power.

 Vankraken wrote:
Reborn Warhost + Aspect Host is just basically playing Craftworld Eldar cheddar but with all the soul burst procing extra attacks. What people keep forgetting is that its anything dying procs it so if you kill a nearby unit of scat bikes then its two buddies 7" away can soul burst another shooting attack. Units like Warp Spiders end up in the thick of it anyway while Scatter bikes don't lose out of anything by sacrificing battle focus. Obsec doesn't matter when there is nothing left alive to contest objectives.

Playing against this mess was basically like all the rage people have about Tau overwatch except it keep triggering during both player turns and it kept chain procing over and over again. Interesting rule set but in no way, shape, or form should Craftworld Eldar should of been given this level of power.

On face value it seems that way yes, but look a little bit closer.

If units have to stay within 7" of each other to actually benefit from this power, they have to stay pretty bunched up. Or, at least, bunched up with 1 or 2 other units. That means that in order to actually use this amazing power they have to reduce their effectiveness at Maelstrom (because they can't MSU properly to claim objectives), they still suffer from the drawbacks of MSU in killpoints, they're more vulnerable to large blast templates, oh, and Obsec is a tournament-winning ability, so losing it is a big deal. If your rolls go poorly, you can't fall back on turbo-boosting your MSU jetbikes to every objective on the board and win on points nearly as easily.

I can think of more disadvantages to that style of play too. It's reliant on units being wiped out to get its advantage. That either means people have to focus-fire on a single unit until it's destroyed, using excess firepower to ensure the job's done beyond what it would actually take to neuter the unit's effectiveness. Oh, and Warp Spiders like to be 12" away from an enemy unit, meaning they can jump back out of range if they're lucky, or certainly out of charge range. For Soulburst they want to be 7" or less away. That means on average they will jump back to 14", which after a movement phase is both well within rapid-fire range and an easy charge, rather than being well out of the way.

Honestly, assuming Ynnari are 'buffed CWE' and playing them with the same old lists and same old tactics will get you nuked in the vast majority of games you play.

As for the Tau Overwatch thing, what did people do when it first came out? Develop tactics that neutered it. Charge units that are out of position so can't benefit from it, or charge units with a throwaway chaff unit as each squad can only overwatch once. They have to choose between being tied up in combat so that unit can't overwatch when the nasty unit gets going, or shoot overwatch against the chaff so your nasty unit gets in scot-free anyway

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Reborn Warhost + Aspect Host is just basically playing Craftworld Eldar cheddar but with all the soul burst procing extra attacks. What people keep forgetting is that its anything dying procs it so if you kill a nearby unit of scat bikes then its two buddies 7" away can soul burst another shooting attack. Units like Warp Spiders end up in the thick of it anyway while Scatter bikes don't lose out of anything by sacrificing battle focus. Obsec doesn't matter when there is nothing left alive to contest objectives.

Playing against this mess was basically like all the rage people have about Tau overwatch except it keep triggering during both player turns and it kept chain procing over and over again. Interesting rule set but in no way, shape, or form should Craftworld Eldar should of been given this level of power.

On face value it seems that way yes, but look a little bit closer.

If units have to stay within 7" of each other to actually benefit from this power, they have to stay pretty bunched up. Or, at least, bunched up with 1 or 2 other units. That means that in order to actually use this amazing power they have to reduce their effectiveness at Maelstrom (because they can't MSU properly to claim objectives), they still suffer from the drawbacks of MSU in killpoints, they're more vulnerable to large blast templates, oh, and Obsec is a tournament-winning ability, so losing it is a big deal. If your rolls go poorly, you can't fall back on turbo-boosting your MSU jetbikes to every objective on the board and win on points nearly as easily.

I can think of more disadvantages to that style of play too. It's reliant on units being wiped out to get its advantage. That either means people have to focus-fire on a single unit until it's destroyed, using excess firepower to ensure the job's done beyond what it would actually take to neuter the unit's effectiveness. Oh, and Warp Spiders like to be 12" away from an enemy unit, meaning they can jump back out of range if they're lucky, or certainly out of charge range. For Soulburst they want to be 7" or less away. That means on average they will jump back to 14", which after a movement phase is both well within rapid-fire range and an easy charge, rather than being well out of the way.

Honestly, assuming Ynnari are 'buffed CWE' and playing them with the same old lists and same old tactics will get you nuked in the vast majority of games you play.

As for the Tau Overwatch thing, what did people do when it first came out? Develop tactics that neutered it. Charge units that are out of position so can't benefit from it, or charge units with a throwaway chaff unit as each squad can only overwatch once. They have to choose between being tied up in combat so that unit can't overwatch when the nasty unit gets going, or shoot overwatch against the chaff so your nasty unit gets in scot-free anyway

How is "focus firing on a single unit until it's destroyed" in any way a bad thing? That's pretty much wargames 101: concentrate fire and all that. Just like your earlier claim that losing ObSec and Battle Focus was somehow bad I'm not really seeing the downside here. The most broken stuff in the Eldar army didn't need either of those 2 abilities anyway. Eldar are pretty damn good at spamming small units. which is the style of play you need to make the Ynnari work.

The fact Soulburst works from both enemy and friendly units is what makes it so powerful. Your Scat bikes can be pouring fire into units halfway across the table and activating Soulburst for the assault elements who have zoomed into the enemy's face. Frankly, I don't think it matters if your bike packs never even get to take a Soulburst action during a game. It's their job to activate it for others, not take advantage of it themselves. Their already among the best Troops in the game and they also happen to be one of the best activators for Souburst, helped by their efficiency in being such small units.

In a game where actions are severely limited, the ability to potentially double those actions during a game is ridiculously powerful. When those units are some of the most undercosted in the game you're basically just hugely magnifying the points discrepancy.

First clarification. I did mean power from pain rahter then combat drugs earlier.

Obsec is a big deal indeed. You would need to chang your list and tactics. But you can take a CAD of bikes with obsec. And choose what to include and what not. It's not auto-win certainly but if used and specialised correctly this can be a big buff to firepower.

FIghting the ynnari requires I think the exact opposite tactics of as GSC. GSc you have to make sure everything is dead, with ynaari that is exactly what you don't want to do.

Rember btw if you heavy weapons guy takes out a model the sulburst happens immediately as in before the rest of the squad fires. Important fact to bear in mind.

I haven't actually played a game with ynnari so I am just theorycrafting here touygh.

having a squad of pinpoint deep striking wraithguard annihilating 1 thing of the board then immediately removing another thing from existence is engaging and fun to play against (sarcasm)

well, even without the second shot that wraithguard unit was already powefull.

OP+buff= MORE OP right?

There is definetely some OP/undercosted stuff in CWE that massively gets a buff from SFD.

People not wanting to play any ynnari list or saying it's the most OP thing out there are wrong tough.

If you play crap scenarios (say, Eternal War) they are top of the line. If you play hybrid scenarios where Objective Secured matters, they are way less effective.

In the end, they are not more cancerous than wolfstars, extreme Tau lists, dual IK convos and what have you.

I don't think playing mostly CWE in a Ynnari list has to alter your tactics that much. I have found that it moreso changes the way the opponent has to play.
If I have a bunch of Scatterbikes near my WK, the opponent has to choose wisely which units to attempt to destroy first, and with which units to shoot with in which order. If they choose to use the wrong unit first and kill a bike unit, the WK can immediately shoot and take out a big target that hasn't shoot yet.

Personally, I was running my units close to each other anyway, so being able to immediately retaliate is just gold.
The big take-away list I am watching for right now is Reborn Host with lots of bike & a WK + Riptide wing. That list can do so many out of sequence actions it's ridiculous.

-

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
How are melee Wraithknights more powerful? I feel I'm missing a trick!

Is it that they can wipe one unit with their D attack and then Soulburst into another for Stomps? Or is it more catapulting them up into the opponent's face early on?

The 5++ is the main reason you take the melle WK. Between the sun-cannon and a D sword - the D sword ensures that other melle bullies can't hang with you. The sun cannon varient is not bad though - everytime I've run with a suncannon the WK has paid for itself just with shooting. 3 ap2 str 6 small blast is nothing to snivel at. A WK without an invo save just seems to die too easy and seems more like a liability than an asset to me.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A WK without an invo save just seems to die too easy and seems more like a liability than an asset to me.

I have found the complete opposite to be true (in my experience at least). My opponents have either had very little that can deal with a T8 6W model with FNP, or they have so much that the 5++ doesn't matter. The WK dies anyway.
That is why I will continue to favor the shooting WK. By making sure I have squishier units near the WK, I ensure that the WK always gets a useful Soulburst in my opponents turn (i.e shooting), something the melee WK (who would benefit from moving or assaulting) cannot always benefit from.
As a bonus, if my opponent is scared of the WK shooting, I can put units near it for protection. The opponent will think twice about killing a bike unit if it means they'll get extra D to the face.

-

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Reborn Warhost + Aspect Host is just basically playing Craftworld Eldar cheddar but with all the soul burst procing extra attacks. What people keep forgetting is that its anything dying procs it so if you kill a nearby unit of scat bikes then its two buddies 7" away can soul burst another shooting attack. Units like Warp Spiders end up in the thick of it anyway while Scatter bikes don't lose out of anything by sacrificing battle focus. Obsec doesn't matter when there is nothing left alive to contest objectives.

Playing against this mess was basically like all the rage people have about Tau overwatch except it keep triggering during both player turns and it kept chain procing over and over again. Interesting rule set but in no way, shape, or form should Craftworld Eldar should of been given this level of power.

On face value it seems that way yes, but look a little bit closer.

If units have to stay within 7" of each other to actually benefit from this power, they have to stay pretty bunched up. Or, at least, bunched up with 1 or 2 other units. That means that in order to actually use this amazing power they have to reduce their effectiveness at Maelstrom (because they can't MSU properly to claim objectives), they still suffer from the drawbacks of MSU in killpoints, they're more vulnerable to large blast templates, oh, and Obsec is a tournament-winning ability, so losing it is a big deal. If your rolls go poorly, you can't fall back on turbo-boosting your MSU jetbikes to every objective on the board and win on points nearly as easily.

I can think of more disadvantages to that style of play too. It's reliant on units being wiped out to get its advantage. That either means people have to focus-fire on a single unit until it's destroyed, using excess firepower to ensure the job's done beyond what it would actually take to neuter the unit's effectiveness. Oh, and Warp Spiders like to be 12" away from an enemy unit, meaning they can jump back out of range if they're lucky, or certainly out of charge range. For Soulburst they want to be 7" or less away. That means on average they will jump back to 14", which after a movement phase is both well within rapid-fire range and an easy charge, rather than being well out of the way.

Honestly, assuming Ynnari are 'buffed CWE' and playing them with the same old lists and same old tactics will get you nuked in the vast majority of games you play.

As for the Tau Overwatch thing, what did people do when it first came out? Develop tactics that neutered it. Charge units that are out of position so can't benefit from it, or charge units with a throwaway chaff unit as each squad can only overwatch once. They have to choose between being tied up in combat so that unit can't overwatch when the nasty unit gets going, or shoot overwatch against the chaff so your nasty unit gets in scot-free anyway

Well you are right in a sense here. Soulburst eldar aren't going to do jack against superfriends deathstars/wolfstars/screamer stars. Nothing in the game that relies on offense can beat these things - because they are effectively immune to offense. Psychic abuse combined with IC's being able to pile into units + LOS is effectively unbeatable. Soulburst Eldar will beat anything else.

You've got the warp spider thing wrong too. Warp spiders with soul burst are amazing - they can drop in and shoot twice in an ideal situation and in a non ideal situation they can flicker jump to a friendly unit to activate SFD for a friendly unit if they can't surive - SFD probably does make bikes better than warp spiders thoguh because they make much better use of friendly units death with 36 inch range to retaliate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A WK without an invo save just seems to die too easy and seems more like a liability than an asset to me.

I have found the complete opposite to be true (in my experience at least). My opponents have either had very little that can deal with a T8 6W model with FNP, or they have so much that the 5++ doesn't matter. The WK dies anyway.
That is why I will continue to favor the shooting WK. By making sure I have squishier units near the WK, I ensure that the WK always gets a useful Soulburst in my opponents turn (i.e shooting), something the melee WK (who would benefit from moving or assaulting) cannot always benefit from.
As a bonus, if my opponent is scared of the WK shooting, I can put units near it for protection. The opponent will think twice about killing a bike unit if it means they'll get extra D to the face.

-

Unbuffed the 5++ isn't going to save you from heavy firepower - that is true. With fortune up though - Were talking about 3 saves instead of 1 vs ap3. I'm usually running 2 farseers rolling on ROF so fortune on the WK is happening for me in almost every game.

I can count the number of times I've lost a 5++ WK to shooting on 1 hand - this was before SFD too. It's even more suicidal to alpha strike a wraithknight with SFD because the suicide units you throw at it end up allowing more scatter-bikes to soulburst with ease.