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I posted a thread on the 40K Tactics fourm as for help against Pyskers (mainly Tzeench and Daemons). People recommended that I focus on objective scoring, ignoring the Pys phase and take out anything that seems vulnurable and whittle down the army each turn.
This is the list I came up with but feel free to add your opinion and change up my list if you feel like you could better it.
CAD
HQ
Destroyer Lord w/ Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Warscythe
ELITES
20 Flayed Ones
29 Flayed Ones
TROOPS
10 Warriors
5 Immortals
FAST ATTACK
4 Tomb Blades w/ Nebulscope, Shield Vanes and Particle Beamer
4 Tomb Blades w/ Nebulscope, Shield Vanes and Particle Beamer
FORMATION
CANOPTEK HARVEST
3 Scarabs
Spyder w/ Gloom Prism
5 Wraiths, 2 whip coils
ROYAL COURT
Lord w/ Phase Shifter, Res Ord and Warscythe
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Orikan the Diviner
Total; 1848
My plan is to have Zahn as my HQ because he can pick Warlord Traiths each turn (beaides turn one, he starts out with Zealot) put the D.Lord and Zahn with one unit of Flayed ones and have Lord and Orikan in the other F.ones. If I start turn 1 I would Infiltrate the D.Lord and Zahn near the most threathing unit and hopefully take kt out before they can manifest any Psy powers. I will then infiltrate the Lord and Orikan against another unit that I think will cause peoblems.
If my opponent starts I will do as above but against ubits with either the lowest buffs or units that absolutely need to be destroyed.
Warriors will be used as a gun line and to target anything that gets summomed or with in thier fire range.
Immortals will be used to hold objectives and to hold the line to prevent enemy units from flanking me.
Tomb Blades will be for objectives and to help any units in trouble and take out hordes of Pink/Blue horros with 8 strength 6 blast attacks that should do a good chunk of damage.
Wraiths will be used to flank units and to add CC support to the Flayed Ones if needed. 2 have Coils so can Challenge ar high I and have the other 3 attack a squad if the Character is in a unit
Spyder will give a 12inch 5+ deny witchrolls
Scarabs will also hold a base and stop hosa from attacking me by holding them up in combat.
Made a Decurion Version thought id pop it in as well
DECURION
REC LEGION
7 Immortals
Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Warscythe
So going off what was said before, warscythes and voidreapers are sorta wasted points, as the things you want to get them into combat with will be flying in the air.
What is the plans for zandrekh and orikan? the plan of infiltrating is hard to do with a blob of 20 flayed ones, and cant charge the turn they infiltrate. so min of turn 2 charge, and I cant remember off the top of my head the ruling for infiltrate but the HQ's dont have it. So they might not be able to infiltrate with them. Also what are they adding to the squads of flayed ones?
A d/lord does have deepstrike and can deepstrike in with the flayed ones if you want to do something like that. Its a big footprint to safely deepstrike however.
I hate my warlord dying, so if it were me id drop the royal court and add in a squad of S&B lychguard to keep him alive for alot longer.
I personally like the CAD, but the decurion does give them the ability to outlast quite a lot of firepower, psychic or normal. it really helps on your goal of focusing down the ground troops and outscoring them.
If i was going to run the CADid drop the court, run the flayed ones at maxed squads, have a naked lord (cheapest HQ) and hide him the whole game. Remove the royal court and add in as many warriors as possible, with GA's if you have the points spare.
If you wanted you could run a orikanstar in the decurion.
Give the overlord the nightmare shroud, at least 5 lychguard with s&b, orikan, obryn, a lord with the veil. Give the lord and o/lord whatever gives them the most attacks possible, as obryn (and orikan unofically) have warscythes. Use obryn to blink up the board turn 1, then start attacking the backline. Your deathstar will take years to kill, your rerolling all saves of 1, and rerolling 1's for your RP. Super tough nut to crack. you have the veil then to get out of a combat you dont want, so they can be versatile.
Klowny wrote: So going off what was said before, warscythes and voidreapers are sorta wasted points, as the things you want to get them into combat with will be flying in the air.
What is the plans for zandrekh and orikan? the plan of infiltrating is hard to do with a blob of 20 flayed ones, and cant charge the turn they infiltrate. so min of turn 2 charge, and I cant remember off the top of my head the ruling for infiltrate but the HQ's dont have it. So they might not be able to infiltrate with them. Also what are they adding to the squads of flayed ones?
A d/lord does have deepstrike and can deepstrike in with the flayed ones if you want to do something like that. Its a big footprint to safely deepstrike however.
I hate my warlord dying, so if it were me id drop the royal court and add in a squad of S&B lychguard to keep him alive for alot longer.
I personally like the CAD, but the decurion does give them the ability to outlast quite a lot of firepower, psychic or normal. it really helps on your goal of focusing down the ground troops and outscoring them.
If i was going to run the CADid drop the court, run the flayed ones at maxed squads, have a naked lord (cheapest HQ) and hide him the whole game. Remove the royal court and add in as many warriors as possible, with GA's if you have the points spare.
If you wanted you could run a orikanstar in the decurion.
Give the overlord the nightmare shroud, at least 5 lychguard with s&b, orikan, obryn, a lord with the veil. Give the lord and o/lord whatever gives them the most attacks possible, as obryn (and orikan unofically) have warscythes. Use obryn to blink up the board turn 1, then start attacking the backline. Your deathstar will take years to kill, your rerolling all saves of 1, and rerolling 1's for your RP. Super tough nut to crack. you have the veil then to get out of a combat you dont want, so they can be versatile.
The reason for the Warscythes is for incase they do drop down from flying. Fair enough the Warscythe won't be the most effective but the Voidreaper should do good damage as its 2+ Fleshbane. Also its only 20pts and all the other melee weapons aren't as strong or reliable. Could bring several Staff of lights I suppose but they arent that strong either...
Zahndrekh can choose any Warlord Traith he wants after turn one, so I was going to use that to adjust to each turn interms of Object cards I pull, what objectives I have to get, my general plan etc I thought he would have been a good bet to being because of his Warlord powers.
Orikan can go super-sayan depending on the turn and dice roll. And I was going to use him to issue challenges as his stats go crazy and have him take out the most menacing unit, Also, gives the unit re-roll 1s, 4+ RP which will goes to the Flayed ones and either the normal Lord or D.Lord.
Where I play we used over 30+ secenry objects on our 6x4 table so getting 20 Flayed into cover shouldn't be to hard if the scenery is set up right. If anything i would adjust the size if the unit to get maxium unit coverage vs model count.
They may not be able to charge but I could run d6 to get closer to them and somewhat oush uo his armies units towards my shooty units and eventually I should be able to ambush the enemy unit by turn 2 or 3 if I get unlucky.
Ruling for Flayed Ones Infiltrate states
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units.
Infiltrators can be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw line of sight to them. This includes in a building, as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit. Alternatively, they can be set up anywhere on the table more than 18" from any enemy unit, even in plain sight.
If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate along with their Transport.
A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn. Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves.
If a unit has both the Infiltrate and Scout special rule, that unit can deploy as per the Infiltrate special rule and then redeploy as per the Scout special rule."
So, infilitrate conferrees to the whole unit so the HQ and any other Lord should have it too unless I read everything wrong.
My plans for all these HQ is to;
Have Zahndrekh and D.Lord take most of the hits in terms of CC and to play them as the hame changes. Use Zan to xhange Warlord traits as I draw new objec cards, move around the field and see which units are giving me the most oroblems and trt and tackle said problems. D.Lord has Veil of Darkness which I will use to teleport from oke side of the files to the other incase I had too 1) destroy a pesky unit thats giving me trouble and out of harms way from my units 2) if I get an objec card that stayes a pasific roll (HQ gets object marker, destroys unit, issued a challenge etc) and use The veil of darkness to get to the spot I need him in. Res Ord to to stop any Flayed ones from dying incase I take a really bad blown and lose more models then I wouls have liked. Warscythe is just worth10 pts with a 2+ Strength so thought that would have been good for CC.
Have Orikan go Super-Sayan if the roll is lucky, have him issue challenges and take most of the hits as he will be stronger then all of my models in his unit. Gives the unit re-roll 1s for saves, 4+ RP and should give my opponent a few problem with his units in CC with him, the Lord and 20 Flayed ones. Lord has the Voidreaper because kts 2+ Gleshbane which should do good dame towards anything daemon in CC. Res Ord is to make the Flayed ines mlre durable at 4+ RO and have Orikian buff from the res orb as well if things go south with him. Phse shifter is to make the Lord 4+ saves all around so that he should last long enough to buff up the unit.
Overall that was my thinking for both units. Your thoughts in my planes or am I still better to drop the R Court and re-think my tactics?
So I should put my Main HQ into a unit of Lynchguard with Shields and Swords or use the Flayed Ones? I could give the Lord a Phase shifter and Res Orb which should make his survivablity a lot higher inregards to a unit of Lynchguard or Flayed ones.
Why a Vanilla Lord and hide him? Magnus or a Flying Prince could squash a vanilla Lord in no time, and even if I hide him he would still be an easy target to kill. Also you said you hate your warlord dying so put him with Lynchguard for my survivability but if I leave him on his own then it counters what you just said above?
If I was to use the Orikanstar I would need the Royal Court as you can only deploy 1 HQ in the Recamation Legion.
That seems pretty clutch to be fair. DS turn one, charge turn 2 destroy enemy unit. Start pushing my enemy towards my gunline and if in a sticky situation I could just Veil away somewhere else on the board and do my plan all over again.
-EDIT-
However,I can't bring a lord as a HQ or as an Add on in the R Court because So i either need to field 2 Olords and buff them equally.
How about 2 O Lords 1 with the Veil and the other with Nightmare, both run Phase shifter and Res Orb (more survivability) with voidblades to get enoptic strike on a 6 which will be AP2. As well as Orikan and Obyrn. Thoughts?
For a CAD how about
HQ
Orikan
Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Voidblade
yep not bad man if you put your warlord in a squad of flayed ones you are giving up slay the warlord for free. the flayed ones are going to cop a lot of punishment regardless of the warlords position, putting him in there means they will die incredibly quickly. I realise a naked lord is the same concept, but if you can hide him in a building they have to come to you to get him, which means you can turtle around him (thats if the demon player actually wants the kill, he will probably be content shooting mind bullets at the rest of the army).
The naked lord is to save points so you can cram in more of the other stuff. The thing is, with demons, you are only going to get into combat with something that needs a warscythe to kill it if the demon player wants the fight (unless you get lucky enough to ground one, but then you are wasting shots that could be going other places). And then, you need to dedicate and kit out appropriately a whole squad to kill it, as we strike at I2, which means a single dude will be dead before he swings anything. Especially against Magnus.
If you want the warlord to survive, give him a squad of S&B lychguard. Also, i would drop the PB and the Gloom Prism off of the spyder, its more points that can be spent elsewhere. You have to remember that you are only going to get at most 6 dice for the psychic phase, and its not uncommon for a Tzeench player to have 20-30 dice each turn. Its best to completely ignore the phase and focus on our strengths (not dying )
What could be sort of effective is putting a D/Lord with the flayed ones, his PE would be delishious for them, making them even more incredibly lethal (they could take on Magnus and probably kill him in a turn with PE). You could give him the solar staff and res orb to protect them the turn you think they are going to cop punishment. Maybe a nightmare shroud and shifter to tank wounds for them. I realise it makes them target no.1 and not being in a decurion hurts them too in regards to RP but its the best strat i could think of in regards putting a HQ in the flayed ones. You can look at the D/Lord as a buff for them rather than a beat stick.
Orikan is cool, but I have frustratingly only had him go super sayain twice, it just doesnt happen enough, and considering your list he will probably be dead very quickly as he has little to no protection. Put him in a squad of S&B lychguard and they are now 3++ rerolling 1's all the time and 4+RP even in a CAD, whereas put him in a squad of flayed ones and their armour saves will be negated most of the time so your relying on 4+RP to save them, which you cant reroll using his special ability due to RP not being a saving throw.
Finally, you can take a lord in a royal court
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 17:04:48
Klowny wrote: yep not bad man if you put your warlord in a squad of flayed ones you are giving up slay the warlord for free. the flayed ones are going to cop a lot of punishment regardless of the warlords position, putting him in there means they will die incredibly quickly. I realise a naked lord is the same concept, but if you can hide him in a building they have to come to you to get him, which means you can turtle around him (thats if the demon player actually wants the kill, he will probably be content shooting mind bullets at the rest of the army).
The naked lord is to save points so you can cram in more of the other stuff. The thing is, with demons, you are only going to get into combat with something that needs a warscythe to kill it if the demon player wants the fight (unless you get lucky enough to ground one, but then you are wasting shots that could be going other places). And then, you need to dedicate and kit out appropriately a whole squad to kill it, as we strike at I2, which means a single dude will be dead before he swings anything. Especially against Magnus.
If you want the warlord to survive, give him a squad of S&B lychguard. Also, i would drop the PB and the Gloom Prism off of the spyder, its more points that can be spent elsewhere. You have to remember that you are only going to get at most 6 dice for the psychic phase, and its not uncommon for a Tzeench player to have 20-30 dice each turn. Its best to completely ignore the phase and focus on our strengths (not dying )
What could be sort of effective is putting a D/Lord with the flayed ones, his PE would be delishious for them, making them even more incredibly lethal (they could take on Magnus and probably kill him in a turn with PE). You could give him the solar staff and res orb to protect them the turn you think they are going to cop punishment. Maybe a nightmare shroud and shifter to tank wounds for them. I realise it makes them target no.1 and not being in a decurion hurts them too in regards to RP but its the best strat i could think of in regards putting a HQ in the flayed ones. You can look at the D/Lord as a buff for them rather than a beat stick.
Orikan is cool, but I have frustratingly only had him go super sayain twice, it just doesnt happen enough, and considering your list he will probably be dead very quickly as he has little to no protection. Put him in a squad of S&B lychguard and they are now 3++ rerolling 1's all the time and 4+RP even in a CAD, whereas put him in a squad of flayed ones and their armour saves will be negated most of the time so your relying on 4+RP to save them, which you cant reroll using his special ability due to RP not being a saving throw.
Finally, you can take a lord in a royal court
I suppose that in a unit of 20 flayed ones even with a res orb isn't a solid plan to survive against a daemon army seeing as they are all psyk based and don,t really have much shooting but are good in CC. Have more shooty unit seems like the way to go...
I havnt used Flayed ones before so don't really know how they work or if they work well. With a D.Lord they will almost kill anything if they are charging. I suppose its effective but not for a daemon army.
I guess if my vanilla Lord is my Warlord I'll be able to make my opponent go towards him as a decoy and then flank his units with my fast shooty one. Could put D.Lord with Lynchguard, although they can't deep strike so if I wanna go in either have to be done through an ability or Night Scythe.
-EDIT-
Decided to change my list from a CAD to a Decurion
DECURION
5 Immortals x2
7 Lynchguard w/sword&shield
Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and voidblade
4 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscopes, Shiled Vanes and Particle Beamer
10 Warriors in Ghost Ark x2
AUXILIARY
Canoptek Harvest
3 Scarabs
Spyder w/Gloom Prism and Particle Beamer
5 Wraiths no coils
Deathbringer Flight
2 Doom Scythes.
Total; 1847
Overall I have 57 models standard and then an extra model with the Sypder spawning Scarabs every movement phase so should have enough unit to hold off for a few rounds.
Overlord with the Lynchguard should be a good solid. Especially with the res orb, 3/4+ invul and 4+ RP and re-rolling 1s. And Veil of Darkness to DS onto the field or DS out of CC. Depends on what is more important.
2 units of Immortals are to hold objecs and to stop my opponent from flanking behind me.
2 units of Tomb Blades will be taken objecs on my opponents side of the field, also maybe to seperate my opponents units and take out anything that is weak or in low body count. Also good at takig down hords as its 8 blast weapons at strength 6.
2 Ghost Arks will transport the warriors through out the field with the ability to shot from both sides which equal to a lot of shoots. Also, repair any warrior that was taken out in combat.
Scarabs will take an objec marker, and be spread out in a way to prevent my opponents units from moving forward unless we go into CC
Spyder will follow the Ghost Arks to re-pair them if needed. Or else will buf the scarabs with RP,Shred or Fleet.
Wraiths will rally up any units that are on there own or in low model count. Also use them to flank and maybe follow the Tomb blades to take out whatever they couldnt destroy with their weapons.
Doom Scythes are being used to destroy hordes with the Death-Ray and stop my opponent from flying around all the time.
Your thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 19:12:09
If youre giving the overlord the lychguard just as bodyguard so he doesn't die, I would personally give him the nightmare shroud instead of the veil, remove the gauntlet and drop the lychguard down to 5. They are basically ablative wounds so you dont give up slay the warlord, so investing too much into them isn't necessary. If you wanted it to be more assault based, you could add in the royal court orikan-star styled list i talked about before, its super tough and fun to play, its slow but with the teleports its not too bad.
Drop everything off the spyder and give the wraiths coils, they are much more worth it than a PB and gloom prism on something that will die immediately when its on the board. The spyder makes the wraiths stupid durable, so its always target no.1 if your fighting someone who knows how to play against necrons. The RP lasts a whole turn even if the wraiths are not in the bubble anymore, so you can turn it on and run them away and get a whole turn of RP even if they are no where near the spyder (recent FAQ answered this question).
If whatever points you have left after doing all this, add in more TB, they are veeeery good, and having 2 squads of 3 is alot more tactically versatile rather than a squad of 6
If I use the N Shroud instead of the veil I will get a 2+ save instead of 3+. However, If it comes down to invul save I will always have that 4+ which I will mostly be relying on due to low AP weapons and certain "no save" attacks. I suppose 2+ re-rolling 1s is clutch though compared to 3+ and re-rolling 1s.
I still think teleporting out of CC if I need to is better then a 2+ save if I dont survive CC.
5 Lynch is probably better interms of points and how long they will survive with the O.lords res orb.
Gauntlet on O.Lord i to kill anything in units before they assault me or I assault them. Might be Strength 4 but still in overwatch it can do a lot of damage. But i might lose it.
Orikan-Star seems like the best option for a CC Necron force.
So run a vanilla Sypder and have Wraiths will coils to get I 5. I could run the Spyder every turn if its just there to give the Wraiths RP which will make them survive more. Yes it is a target that does draw my opponents attention but usually my opponents go for my Warlord, blobs of warriors and anything that looks big and powerful. I usually get the finish my games with my Sypder only taking 1 HP and giving all y wraiths RP. there has only been one occasion in which I lost a Sypder early and thats because my opponent has played Necrons before and knows their fluff. I Suppose it all depends on who I am against.
I usually run 3 units of 3 TB because they can 1) act like a squad of 9 if I want them too 2) I can have them get 3 separate objects on either my side of the field or my opponents 3) can have them targeting other units and doing good damage 4) have 3 units that can easy get line breaker and give me 1-3 points if I draw the card.
Also, I usually use Gauss because if in RF i get 6 shoots instead of 3 which helps quite a lot but i think PB will be better for a Daemon list if going against big blobs of horrors or a Magnus that has landed.
I'm running 2 units of 4 which equals 8. Not sure where you got 6 from or if you where making an example to tell me the difference haha.
How about;
5 Lynch w/ Sword&Shield
5 TBs with above equipment x2
drop the Lord Gauntlet
make sypder vailla and add 5 coils and that points my total points to 1850
Yep sounds good man, try it out and youll see what you can change out in future games. A lot of it comes down to just playing games and getting an understanding of whats going on.
Yea I was making an example of splitting them up into two squads, unless you want one big scary squad, which can be effective. I find MSU is better for them as they are then more flexible.
I will be having a game in about 2-3 days. Either be against Tzeench w/ Magnus or a Tau list. I have another 1850 list made (CAD,Decurion,Formation) for the Tau if I don't end up using going against Tzeench.
I hope I do play against Tzeench though as I would like to see how my list plays out and see if anything needs to chance.
MSU of TB is good when you have 3-4 per unit but at most you can only have 3 FA units in a CAD so I usually do either 3-4 models per unit (or 4-5 if I'm using a unit of Wraiths). Could do a unit with 8 in them and 2 units of 4 because you can then have one unit doing loads of damage and 2 units doing damage and getting objecs.
12,000 
if you put your warlord in a squad of flayed ones you are giving up slay the warlord for free. the flayed ones are going to cop a lot of punishment regardless of the warlords position, putting him in there means they will die incredibly quickly. I realise a naked lord is the same concept, but if you can hide him in a building they have to come to you to get him, which means you can turtle around him (thats if the demon player actually wants the kill, he will probably be content shooting mind bullets at the rest of the army).
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