Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My initial thoughts are on the pro vs con's of using each as suicide or melta squad. Tactical marines are slightly better on stats but they and the troopers are both BS4. So if you aren't playing a SM list aren't the stormtroopers just superior at dropping down behind a vehicle and melting it? In addition the hotshot lasguns are ap3 vs a bolters ap5 which to me gives them more versatility in just deleting units. In addition they have deepstrike so you don't even need drop pods and they have move through cover so they won't mishap on terrain.

Comparatively I can't really think of a good reason to use tacticals as back line offensive units over the troopers. Yet I don't really see anyone use the troopers. They have good orders comparable to Chapter tactics so is the lack of use simply because of formation purposes or is there some flaw about them I am not considering?

Ceann wrote:
My initial thoughts are on the pro vs con's of using each as suicide or melta squad. Tactical marines are slightly better on stats but they and the troopers are both BS4. So if you aren't playing a SM list aren't the stormtroopers just superior at dropping down behind a vehicle and melting it? In addition the hotshot lasguns are ap3 vs a bolters ap5 which to me gives them more versatility in just deleting units. In addition they have deepstrike so you don't even need drop pods and they have move through cover so they won't mishap on terrain.

Comparatively I can't really think of a good reason to use tacticals as back line offensive units over the troopers. Yet I don't really see anyone use the troopers. They have good orders comparable to Chapter tactics so is the lack of use simply because of formation purposes or is there some flaw about them I am not considering?

Well, drop pods have Pod Assault, so it's super easy to just dip in on one pod which will guaranteed come in on turn 1 vs maybe come in turn 2. Also, drop pods do not mishap on enemy UNITS, nor does it care at all about terrain, so the space marines can more reliably DS closer to enemies. On top of that, the marines also get to get out of the pod and move 6" before making their shooting attack, rather than having to attack from the point they DS'ed down. Also t4 and 3+ armor makes them very slightly harder to kill after they've finished their suicide mission, and the drop pod itself is an irritant at AV12 you need dedicated anti tank weaponry if you want to remove this stupid obsec thing that plopped down on your objective and is now piddling at you with its storm bolter.

Also, the low strength of the hellgun is a heavy limiting factor of what it can actually feasibly hurt with its ap3. Better to have the bolter as a secondary bonus weapon if somehow you survive your melta drop, which can really reliably cut down light infantry.

The formation that allows scions to respawn is really nasty the few times I've had to fight it.

The armies of the imperium one? Isn't that a 4+ or 5+? It might be good when it happens but I'd consider it to be unreliable.

In regards to drops I realize some of the con's notated above but if your purpose is just to kill some tank or artillery piece I done think it's relevant most of the time. Now the physical obstruction of the pod is definitely a good thing. But if I run 4 of these squads I'm saving 140 points on pods.

Wellllll....maybe but also remember that a lot of competitive SM list have free pods. I've also used pods to shape the battlefield. Like by blocking in my opponents tanks so they have to waste a turn shooting at free pods or waste a turn driving a long way around them.

Ceann wrote:
The armies of the imperium one? Isn't that a 4+ or 5+? It might be good when it happens but I'd consider it to be unreliable.

In regards to drops I realize some of the con's notated above but if your purpose is just to kill some tank or artillery piece I done think it's relevant most of the time. Now the physical obstruction of the pod is definitely a good thing. But if I run 4 of these squads I'm saving 140 points on pods.

Hellrain Brigade. Its the contents of their start collecting box, so its 1 command squad, 1 Taurox, 1 Scion squad, and 1 commissar. As long as the commissar is still alive and the scion squad dies it automatically returns to ongoing reserves, so you can deepstrike them back in. I like to use this one and park the Commissar in a blob of conscripts with a priest while the command squad zips around in the taurox with special weapons while the scion squad (i like to gear it out at max size so my opponent can't simply ignore them). Only problem is getting them to come in reliably on turn 2 without paying more resources.

Castellans is another fun one because the troops and their dedicated transports come back in on a 5+. This usually isnt great since you would be foot slogging back from your side of the table. With scions this means that you can deepstrike and your Taurox Prime is fast so theres no issue with getting back into the fight. And coteaz cheese makes you ObSec.

Ceann wrote:
The armies of the imperium one? Isn't that a 4+ or 5+? It might be good when it happens but I'd consider it to be unreliable.

In regards to drops I realize some of the con's notated above but if your purpose is just to kill some tank or artillery piece I done think it's relevant most of the time. Now the physical obstruction of the pod is definitely a good thing. But if I run 4 of these squads I'm saving 140 points on pods.

I think its 4+. It's reliable because they can deepstrike, which isnt something that most of the respawning formations can do. They can come down in pretty much the same location they died in, which is basically like saying "they have a 50% to just not die". Trust me. Having a melta or plasmasquad deepstrike in, kill a bunch of my guys/vehicles, get wiped out in my turn then just deepstrike in again at the same place to do it all over again at the start of the enemy turn is VERY powerful.
If you bring 4 scion squads, you (on average) get 3 extra ones. For a unit that is all about suicide strikes, that is AWESOME.

EDIT: after some asking, my opponent was using the castellian formation. So yeah, 5+. But again, deepstriking scions makes them -real- good at getting right back to the action (as if theyd never left!), instead of having to hoof it from a board edge.

The 3+ save makes the marines more eligable for plasma drops. Also, if the marines survives a p-fist armed sergeant is pretty good at reliably destroying backline tanks. The marines as a whole are actually better at binding up enemy squads in close combat, though it's not really what you're looking for in a drop.

Scions carry more plasma, more AP3 weapons, and are considerably cheaper (don't need no pod!). For suicide drops, there's no contest between the two.

I was considering using the troopers as a supplementary group for my GK, who have a distinct lack of meltaguns or plasma. As they are expensive I was looking at these as cheap effective bodies to add.

The only thing scions have over marines in a pod is their respawning formation. But it's still pretty meh. Pods are far far superior. You can even forego the marines. Just drop pods all around.

 generalchaos34 wrote:


Hellrain Brigade. Its the contents of their start collecting box, so its 1 command squad, 1 Taurox, 1 Scion squad, and 1 commissar. As long as the commissar is still alive and the scion squad dies it automatically returns to ongoing reserves, so you can deepstrike them back in. I like to use this one and park the Commissar in a blob of conscripts with a priest while the command squad zips around in the taurox with special weapons while the scion squad (i like to gear it out at max size so my opponent can't simply ignore them). Only problem is getting them to come in reliably on turn 2 without paying more resources.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was FAQ'd that the Commissar for this formation must be attached to one of the units from this formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:


With scions this means that you can deepstrike and your Taurox Prime is fast so theres no issue with getting back into the fight. And coteaz cheese makes you ObSec.

The Taurox Prime cannot deepstrike by the way. Deepstrike does not confer to transports, unless the transport specifically says it does. (Ex: Drop Pod)

The Commissar just needs to be on the field. There is nothing about him needing to be attached to a unit.

This is a legit addition to add to a force. Endless supply of suicide meltas is good. Tuck the independent character commissar in a tough squad somewhere.

 Smotejob wrote:
This is a legit addition to add to a force. Endless supply of suicide meltas is good. Tuck the independent character commissar in a tough squad somewhere.

I can never get my opponent to kill the scion unit. They shoot it up, and leave one or two. I think 9/10 times I've gotten this to work it is because I charged into a combat that I couldn't win.

I've never had a game where I replaced the Scions twice.

tag8833 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
This is a legit addition to add to a force. Endless supply of suicide meltas is good. Tuck the independent character commissar in a tough squad somewhere.

I can never get my opponent to kill the scion unit. They shoot it up, and leave one or two. I think 9/10 times I've gotten this to work it is because I charged into a combat that I couldn't win.

I've never had a game where I replaced the Scions twice.

That's not a bad thing. It means the Special weapons can keep going or capture an objective.