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hi guys just wondering which legion was overall the strongest
I want to base it on 6 traits

1. manoeuvrability- how quick they are
2. resilience- how much punishment they can take
3.covert ops- how good are they at sneaking
4. sieges- how good are they at sieging
5.legion warfare how good are they against other legions
6. finally: coordination- how well do they work together

I would say TS but I am not sure on the lore of most of the legions

Luna Wolves or Imperial Fists deserve strong consideration

Based on the given criteria, I feel it has to be the Lunar wolves or the Ultramarines. The two of them are the only legions balanced enough to be highly levelled in all 6 criteria, while also being widely considered some of the best legions (and also the largest, though presumably we're ignoring numbers to make it competitive). An argument could be made for the Space Wolves.

Really though, not many of the other legions would pass all 6 of these. I've can't remember any fluff about WE or IH stealth teams, or seen Raven Guard or AL breaking a siege with something besides sneakiness (which shouldn't go down nearly as well against fellow SM's as it does).
Especially siege warfare, besides the Iron Warriors the general siege-tactic seems to be "lets drop anywhere from 10,000-200,000 power-armoured post-human killers on the siege and murder everything". It works, but it still doesn't make them good at besieging.

honestly I think it might be better idea to drop the criteria for now as it provides more conversation

Night Lords wouldn't be high on this list, whilst they would be good in regards to manoeuvrability and covert ops, they are about standard in terms of resilience and legion combat, siege would be below average and their coordination would definitely be lacking as their recruits devolved into being the scum of Nostramo before its eventual destruction.

How about Word Bearers during the Heresy?
1. manoeuvrability - preparing to the Heresy they improved their fleet with ships like Furious Abyss, and dealing with the Gods had some benefits travelling the warp and delaying enemy fleets
2. resilience - they were second in numbers only to ultramarines
3. covert ops - cultists everywhere, teleporting around with magick daggers, and chaplains sent to other Legions
4. sieges - brought ruin to ultramarine worlds
5. legion warfare - they are THE traitors
6. coordination - hierarchy and every apostle communicating with Lorgar by magick wherever they are

SoH, Ultramarines or Emperors Children.

As a single Legion versus another Legion one-on-one, where both factions know they're at war?

Sons of Horus are certainly tenacious fighters, and did claim a great number of worlds.
Dark Angels were also tactically effective, but we don't really see much on the number of compliances.
Ultramarines are regarded by some in the SoH as being a rival in their strength.
Space Wolves did bring the Thousand Sons to heel, but then again, the Sons were unaware.
Alpha Legion are certainly capable, but only in asymmetrical warfare.
Blood Angels are seen as a good Legion, no?

My top three would be Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, and Blood Angels, although I'm less sure on the Angels.

Imperial fists where not weak, and where trusted to defend Terra, have there fortress nice n close to seat of power.

On manover they have phalanx and one of the larger fleets among thr legions.

2, they are renowned for being the hold the damned legion..
3, weaker but they excelled in more conventional warfare.
4, siege. They are the siege bro,s with the Iron Warriors.
5,they defended palace against 9-3 odds and heavily outnumbered. They hold the line in Terran system and Doen was defacto commanding officer in the battle.
6, coordination is solid, there not known for weak organisation, naore maybe the strongest.

I'd say Ultramarines. in large part because of their superior logistics network.

Dark Angels.
ElJohnson was found 14th and freed/quelled the second highest number of systems, second only to Luna Wolves, says a lot about their tactics.
Their credentials for legion on legion beatings is questionable - the only real evidence is against the Alpha Legion after they ambushed a casualty heavy Space Wolves fleet.
However - Alpha Legion being Alpha Legion probably cut and ran as soon as the Angels arrived in the system.

I think Sons of Horus win out here.

Maneuverability: Well, their primary tactic was overwhelming assault and beheading via mass orbital assault. That requires a lot of coordination and logistics to accomplish.

Resilience: No more so than any other average legion. Their way of warfare actually directly avoided drawn out confrontations and skewed heavily towards outnumbering and overwhelming the opponent. Very rarely did the Sons of Horus choose to fight in a battle that wasn't in their advantage. So you could argue that they are possibly less resilient.

Covert Ops: The Legion it's self didn't specialize in it like some others, but Horus had an extensive network of allies that he used for his covert missions.

Sieges: Well, they coordinated the Siege of Terra, and although they lost, it was the largest siege in the history of mankind. So I'd say they knew what they were doing. This is obviously on top of being the legion with the most reclaimed worlds under their belt.

Legion Warfare: They started the Heresy, so I'd say they have a pretty good idea on how to take on other legions considering they have fought both Traitors in the Istvaan III Campaign and Loyalists at Istvaan V and throughout the Heresy including the Siege of Terra. They also have specialized weaponry such as Bane Strike rounds to give advantage over other Legions.

Coordination: No one, except perhaps Guilliman and Sanguinius can even come close to the kind of leader it takes to coordinate the entirety of the Imperial War Machine. He reigned in all the Traitors and their strange practices, turned many of the old grudges between legions against each other. United half of the Imperium to turn traitor and almost defeated the Emperor at the siege of Terra. The Sons of Horus have a strong command structure, but are not completely bound to it like the Emperor's Children and individual units and armies are more open to operate independently and adjust tactics if needed.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
How about Word Bearers during the Heresy?
1. manoeuvrability - preparing to the Heresy they improved their fleet with ships like Furious Abyss, and dealing with the Gods had some benefits travelling the warp and delaying enemy fleets
2. resilience - they were second in numbers only to ultramarines
3. covert ops - cultists everywhere, teleporting around with magick daggers, and chaplains sent to other Legions
4. sieges - brought ruin to ultramarine worlds
5. legion warfare - they are THE traitors
6. coordination - hierarchy and every apostle communicating with Lorgar by magick wherever they are

I was going to say Word Bearers too before I saw the criteria. They are a jack of all trades except in the coordination department. Almost every Word Bearer leader we see has his own agenda and seeks to overthrow his superior.

I'm going to agree with everyone else and say Sons of Horus.

Assuming we're talking about the Legions before they turned Traitor but after their Primarchs were discovered, then my top three would definitely include the Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

Sons of Horus: Not only were they a good all-round Legion, their Primarch was appointed Warmaster instead instead of any the other 18 Primarchs (assuming we consider Alpharius and Omegon separately). That should speak volumes.

Imperial Fists: If nothing else, they were charged with the defense of Terra. That should speak volumes enough about their capabilities.

Ultramarines: Not only were they the largest Legion, but their Primarch was arguably the best Tactician in the Imperium 2nd only to the Emperor.

Just to throw another name in the hat, I believe the books actually state that the Iron Hands were one of the strongest legions at the time of the Ullanor triumph. indeed Ferrus was considered the only credible alternative to Horus as Warmaster I believe.

Certainly their equipment was top notch and their Primark had inculcated a culture of perfectionism in all things in his legion. He had plenty of time to mould them and they were unquestionably loyal to him.
Detracting factors would be their bloody mindedness (especially the lack of appreciation that a tactical retreat can sometimes be the best option!) and lack of numbers compared to legions such as the Ultramarines.

Sons of Horus are high up there, as well as Emperors Children, Word Bearers, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Ultras. I'd say those 6 created the foundation of the imperium with very stable worlds that didn't rebel the moment you left them. (this is totally ignoring the Heresy of course)
All the other legions range from maniacs to inhuman robots, that are good at warfare but not actually capable to make people loyal to the imperium.

As a fanboy I have to throw in Death guard, as it wins against all other legions in terms of resilience They are also known for strength in siege warfare and concerning coordination it is stated that the whole legion workes as one together, everything centralized to Mortarion.

I'm going to try rating each of the legions in each criteria for funsies. DISCLAIMER: I am heavily traitor biased because they're just objectively more interesting and your opinion is wrong.

Legion name: Maneuverability/Resilience/Covert ops/Sieges/Legion warfare/Coordination

Dark Angels: C C B C B D (mostly the Lion's fault)
Emperor's Children: A C C B A B
Iron Warriors: D B D S A B
White Scars: S C D C C B
Space Wolves: B B D C S B
Imperial Fists: D B D S B A
Night Lords: A C A B A F
Blood Angels: B C C B B A
Iron Hands: D A D B A B
World Eaters: B A F C S F
Ultramarines: B B B B B S
Death Guard: D S D A B B
Thousand Sons: B C A B A A
Sons of Horus: A B C B A A
Word Bearers: B B B C A D
Salamanders: C B C A B A
Raven Guard: A C S B C B
Alpha Legion: C C S+ D C S

Each of the Legions has their own strength of weaknesses.

But I would have to say either the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, and the Thousand Sons.

Thousand Sons are zero from four against the Space Wolves, even demon boosted they can't get around plot armour.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thousand Sons are zero from four against the Space Wolves, even demon boosted they can't get around plot armour.

Plot armor aside though, these guys were bamf. Ignoring them post heresy, because Tzeentch and his followers defeat thesmelves

They were responsible for training and starting the psyker project in each legion giving them a unique perspective on the other legions.

Their combat abilities, while mostly used for Magnus' own agenda was top notch due to the fact that every member of their legion was a decent psyker.

Their legion was divided based on psychic talent instead of assignment. Each squad was comprised in a balance so each individual squad had a strong user of what they viewed the main aspects of their powers giving them a very well balanced and powerful force.

Even the final siege against Prospero, they managed to inflict what seemed to be heavy casualties against their foes... the foes that happened to be the Space Wolves (A legion supposedly designed to defeat other legions), the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence (Literally their worst opponent). This was with their primarch not only not assisting in the siege, but rather sending away their orbital fleets, and other planetary defenses as well as blocking his sons from being able to forsee the incoming threat. One can only imagine what the sons had done if they had known about and prepared for the fight (Probably would have been a true mutual destruction at worse).

Their psychic powers literally give them an edge in every aspect over a jack of all trades legion.


Them and Emperor's Children, who earned the right to wear the Aquila on their armor.

 Amanax wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thousand Sons are zero from four against the Space Wolves, even demon boosted they can't get around plot armour.

Plot armor aside though, these guys were bamf. Ignoring them post heresy, because Tzeentch and his followers defeat thesmelves

They were responsible for training and starting the psyker project in each legion giving them a unique perspective on the other legions.

Their combat abilities, while mostly used for Magnus' own agenda was top notch due to the fact that every member of their legion was a decent psyker.

Their legion was divided based on psychic talent instead of assignment. Each squad was comprised in a balance so each individual squad had a strong user of what they viewed the main aspects of their powers giving them a very well balanced and powerful force.

Even the final siege against Prospero, they managed to inflict what seemed to be heavy casualties against their foes... the foes that happened to be the Space Wolves (A legion supposedly designed to defeat other legions), the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence (Literally their worst opponent). This was with their primarch not only not assisting in the siege, but rather sending away their orbital fleets, and other planetary defenses as well as blocking his sons from being able to forsee the incoming threat. One can only imagine what the sons had done if they had known about and prepared for the fight (Probably would have been a true mutual destruction at worse).

Their psychic powers literally give them an edge in every aspect over a jack of all trades legion.


Them and Emperor's Children, who earned the right to wear the Aquila on their armor.

Space Wolves have been implied as Marine Hunters - it's never been confirmed. What has been confirmed is that Russ' nickname "The Executioner" came from the Space Wolves' role in the Great Crusade, other chapters were sent to planets to free them/bring them into the IoM. Space Wolves were sent in when the Big E wanted heads to roll or be mounted on spikes.

For all the casualties the Thousand Sons caused them the Space Wolves suffered more when the Alpha Legion ambushed them between Prospero and Terra.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Amanax wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thousand Sons are zero from four against the Space Wolves, even demon boosted they can't get around plot armour.

Plot armor aside though, these guys were bamf. Ignoring them post heresy, because Tzeentch and his followers defeat thesmelves

They were responsible for training and starting the psyker project in each legion giving them a unique perspective on the other legions.

Their combat abilities, while mostly used for Magnus' own agenda was top notch due to the fact that every member of their legion was a decent psyker.

Their legion was divided based on psychic talent instead of assignment. Each squad was comprised in a balance so each individual squad had a strong user of what they viewed the main aspects of their powers giving them a very well balanced and powerful force.

Even the final siege against Prospero, they managed to inflict what seemed to be heavy casualties against their foes... the foes that happened to be the Space Wolves (A legion supposedly designed to defeat other legions), the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence (Literally their worst opponent). This was with their primarch not only not assisting in the siege, but rather sending away their orbital fleets, and other planetary defenses as well as blocking his sons from being able to forsee the incoming threat. One can only imagine what the sons had done if they had known about and prepared for the fight (Probably would have been a true mutual destruction at worse).

Their psychic powers literally give them an edge in every aspect over a jack of all trades legion.


Them and Emperor's Children, who earned the right to wear the Aquila on their armor.

Space Wolves have been implied as Marine Hunters - it's never been confirmed. What has been confirmed is that Russ' nickname "The Executioner" came from the Space Wolves' role in the Great Crusade, other chapters were sent to planets to free them/bring them into the IoM. Space Wolves were sent in when the Big E wanted heads to roll or be mounted on spikes.

For all the casualties the Thousand Sons caused them the Space Wolves suffered more when the Alpha Legion ambushed them between Prospero and Terra.

Well Russ was also one the Big E could trust to give orders and they would definitely be followed. Russ was sent to try and reign in world eaters and the butchers nails where the infamous Russ Angron fight pre Hersey.

He enforced judgement seeminlg direct as emprors hand 4 times? Maybe 3.

@Amanax
Not all TS were Psykers, they became the Rubric troops. You see them mentioned in basically every book with the TS in.

Honestly, I want a 30k story about a non-psykic TS marine, see how they deal with all the crap going on, being unfairly blamed and labelled as witches etc. I'm also curious if there was any serious prejudice in the TS towards non-psykers (their command group seems to suggest so).

I feel we really need to change the criteria for judging legions, because none of them except the IW show any finesse in siege warfare, just drop down thousands of 'super-soldiers' and start killing. Fine against weak humans, very bad against other SM's. Look at the Istvaan III or Prospero Casualties, both of which occured when a dramatically superior assualting force said screw caution and leapt straight into the enemy.

For me, the top 2 legions are Luna Wolves and Ultramarines. The second tier would be Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Space Wolves, and Word Bearers.

Also, its a small but important matter: are we counting legion numbers, or are we just comparing say 10,000 SM's from each legion? If so, then the bigger legions (Ultramarines, Word Bearers) go down a peg and the TS, AL, and RG go up several.

Ultramarines, because they won the long game . . .

The Custodian Legion, of course- the ones who were going to quietly put down the Astartes once they had served thier purpose just as they had with the Thunder warriors...

 jhe90 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Amanax wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thousand Sons are zero from four against the Space Wolves, even demon boosted they can't get around plot armour.

Plot armor aside though, these guys were bamf. Ignoring them post heresy, because Tzeentch and his followers defeat thesmelves

They were responsible for training and starting the psyker project in each legion giving them a unique perspective on the other legions.

Their combat abilities, while mostly used for Magnus' own agenda was top notch due to the fact that every member of their legion was a decent psyker.

Their legion was divided based on psychic talent instead of assignment. Each squad was comprised in a balance so each individual squad had a strong user of what they viewed the main aspects of their powers giving them a very well balanced and powerful force.

Even the final siege against Prospero, they managed to inflict what seemed to be heavy casualties against their foes... the foes that happened to be the Space Wolves (A legion supposedly designed to defeat other legions), the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence (Literally their worst opponent). This was with their primarch not only not assisting in the siege, but rather sending away their orbital fleets, and other planetary defenses as well as blocking his sons from being able to forsee the incoming threat. One can only imagine what the sons had done if they had known about and prepared for the fight (Probably would have been a true mutual destruction at worse).

Their psychic powers literally give them an edge in every aspect over a jack of all trades legion.


Them and Emperor's Children, who earned the right to wear the Aquila on their armor.

Space Wolves have been implied as Marine Hunters - it's never been confirmed. What has been confirmed is that Russ' nickname "The Executioner" came from the Space Wolves' role in the Great Crusade, other chapters were sent to planets to free them/bring them into the IoM. Space Wolves were sent in when the Big E wanted heads to roll or be mounted on spikes.

For all the casualties the Thousand Sons caused them the Space Wolves suffered more when the Alpha Legion ambushed them between Prospero and Terra.

Well Russ was also one the Big E could trust to give orders and they would definitely be followed. Russ was sent to try and reign in world eaters and the butchers nails where the infamous Russ Angron fight pre Hersey.

He enforced judgement seeminlg direct as emprors hand 4 times? Maybe 3.

You mean judgement on Primarchs specifically?

I think SoH were overall best with Ultramarines challenging them with raw numbers.

@Mudrat - The book "A Thousand Sons" does not show any non-psychic marines that I can recall. The impression I got from the rubric marines wasn't that they were non-psychic but rather weren't strong psykers. But to each their own, the fluff has enough contradictions that I'm sure this is another case of pick your fluff. But bringing up the point of Siege warfare again, it kind of depends. What are they sieging against? What might be considered a huge ordeal for a standard army is a walk int he park for any of the chapters. I can't remember which book it was, probably one of the early Horus Heresy books, where it had a group of guardsmen trying to take down this fortress. Only way into the fortress was a long bridge, defended by the men with heavy assault weapons. The guardsmen couldn't crack it. A couple of marines show up (I believe in the new terminator armor?) walk across the bridge, knock down the door, and kill everyone inside. So it's hard to actually gauge marines in actually siege warfare. Doesn't also help that it seems like anytime a book is written about a siege it just makes them look like idiots (Remember how the Imperial Fists were supposed to also be a master of siege warfare but Rogal Dorn looks like a complete moron whenever it portrays him trying to do just that)

As for the Wolves taking more casualties from the Alpha legion - I'm not as familiar with that fight, but I would assume, that a legion getting ambushed without the assistance of two other elite forces and when you had just finished a campaign, you will take some heavy losses. Remember, not everyone the Thousand Sons killed on Prospero were Wolves.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
The Custodian Legion, of course- the ones who were going to quietly put down the Astartes once they had served thier purpose just as they had with the Thunder warriors...

You I like. I also nominate the two legions that were expunged. Clearly they were so badass the other legions were jealous.

@Amanax
Having just had a re-read of some of the bits of a Thousand Sons, I admit that its implied that basically all of the TS are psykic to a degree. However, I also have the Talon of Horus, where it's basically stated that there are TS who are psykic as a small lump of clay (not that they can be talking much anymore). So I agree this is a case of picking the fluff that suits you.

I also agree whole-heartedly that 95% of the time GW makes the SM's look like idiots when it comes to siege warfare.