Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lamenters Chapter Tactics say "A Lamenters Army is Selected using the rules Presented in Codex: Blood Angels"

Now the Chapter Tactics Rule State "When Choosing a Space Marine Detachment, Whether Primary or Allied, Choose one of the Chapters Listed..."

So does this Mean Lamenters are a Space Marine Army, but Tacticals Etc get Furious Charge (as the Units would be Selected from BA)

Or Would they Be a Blood Angels Army, but Count as Space Marines in All Instances? (E.G Allies, AoD Datasheets)

In Either Case, How would Formations Work?

As Blood Angels successors, they would use the rules for Blood Angels. Their Chapter Master's rules need an update though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As Blood Angels successors, they would use the rules for Blood Angels. Their Chapter Master's rules need an update though.

Yes, but they are a Space Marine Detachment, that is Selected from Blood Angels

 commander dante wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As Blood Angels successors, they would use the rules for Blood Angels. Their Chapter Master's rules need an update though.

Yes, but they are a Space Marine Detachment, that is Selected from Blood Angels

They would be a Blood Angels detachment selected from Blood Angels. Those FW rules terrible due to their age. Look at Mantis Warriors. They get Divination as one of their benefits. You know, like every other SM.

The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

But Chapter Tactics are Selected after you have chosen your list (which would be Space Marines)

 commander dante wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

But Chapter Tactics are Selected after you have chosen your list (which would be Space Marines)

And you know that their aren't any Chapter Tactics for Lamenters or Blood Angels, so why are you still building a vanilla space marine list for them?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

But Chapter Tactics are Selected after you have chosen your list (which would be Space Marines)

And you know that their aren't any Chapter Tactics for Lamenters or Blood Angels, so why are you still building a vanilla space marine list for them?

Thats where you're wrong Kiddo

This is clearly an exception compared to the others, as it is telling you to use codex blood angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is also only technically valid for 6th ed

 commander dante wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

But Chapter Tactics are Selected after you have chosen your list (which would be Space Marines)

And you know that their aren't any Chapter Tactics for Lamenters or Blood Angels, so why are you still building a vanilla space marine list for them?

Thats where you're wrong Kiddo

"A Lamenters army is selected using the rules presented in Codex: Blood Angels"

It explicitly tells you to use rules that don't have chapter tactics.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The rule is telling you that lamenters are not Codex Space marines.

In a really weird way.

But Chapter Tactics are Selected after you have chosen your list (which would be Space Marines)

And you know that their aren't any Chapter Tactics for Lamenters or Blood Angels, so why are you still building a vanilla space marine list for them?

Thats where you're wrong Kiddo

"A Lamenters army is selected using the rules presented in Codex: Blood Angels"

It explicitly tells you to use rules that don't have chapter tactics.

Or to short it out unless FW grant extra rules to Lamenters they are just Blood Angels under different colors/name

I don't know what the deal is. RAI is transparently obvious. I cam in thinking the OP was confused, but, weird rules lawyering or something?

They're blood angels with a different chapter master, and follow the default way successor chapters work where they use the founding's rules unless it says otherwise.

GW writes really awkward and inconsistent rules sometimes, so you've gotta' lean on RAI if it's clear what that is.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't know what the deal is. RAI is transparently obvious. I cam in thinking the OP was confused, but, weird rules lawyering or something?

They're blood angels with a different chapter master, and follow the default way successor chapters work where they use the founding's rules unless it says otherwise.

GW writes really awkward and inconsistent rules sometimes, so you've gotta' lean on RAI if it's clear what that is.

Well im asking because the way i see it is...
(This is the Process for Building ANY army)
You Choose your Army (Space Marines)
You choose your Detachment (Lets say a Demi-Company Formation Detachment)
After Choosing your Detachment, you Choose your Chapter Tactics (Lamenters) (The Chapter Tactics rule states that it is chosen after the Detachment is chosen)
Lamenters Chapter Tactics state that the army is SELECTED using the rules in Codex Blood Angels (Selected being the key term) (And if it means to choose a Different Army, that is impossible as i have already chosen my Detachment)
You then SELECT the units in your Army (In this case it is telling me to use BA) so my Free Demi-Company Razorbacks have Overcharged Engines, as it is in the Profile/ Upgrades for Razorbacks

So a Lamenters Army IS a Space Marine Army and has all the benefits of Codex Space Marines (I.E AoD Dataslates and Formations), yet uses Codex:Blood Angels for Profiles

No. Army is no longer chosen in this order. You now chose by detachment / formation and are locked into the faction of that army/detachment.

SEcondly you choose your faction first. It isn't "chapter tactics/lementors" It's Faction: Blood angels - Lementors. Same as the flesh terrors and every other BA successor. Faction comes first and the lamentors uses Faction - Blood angels. It is NOT a chapter tactic.

It's fairly simple

Are you Selecting your Army based on the rules from Codex Blood Angels?

Yes - > Good now you can call them Lamenters
No -> Nope, they're not Lamenters.

What counts as "rules from Codex Blood Angels?

If the book's cover says Codex: Blood Angels.

Does Codex: Space Marine say Codex: Blood Angels on the cover? If yes, then good, now you can call your army Lamenters. If no, then Nope, they're not Lamenters.

Simple yes?

 MattKing wrote:
No. Army is no longer chosen in this order. You now chose by detachment / formation and are locked into the faction of that army/detachment.

SEcondly you choose your faction first. It isn't "chapter tactics/lementors" It's Faction: Blood angels - Lementors. Same as the flesh terrors and every other BA successor. Faction comes first and the lamentors uses Faction - Blood angels. It is NOT a chapter tactic.

Then EXPLAIN this picture then!
It is CLEARLY a CHAPTER TACTIC in the FW CHAPTER TACTIC pdf with other CHAPTER TACTICS

It actually does not say Chapter tactic anywhere on that pic.

In fact curiously the word "tactic" is never even used in the Lamenter's entry.

 commander dante wrote:
You then SELECT the units in your Army (In this case it is telling me to use BA) so my Free Demi-Company Razorbacks have Overcharged Engines, as it is in the Profile/ Upgrades for Razorbacks

Je-zus. Seriously.

1. You're wrong.

2. Even if you were technically right, RAW that you're really not conveying, RAI is obvious. Case in point, they have death company, honor guard, are featured in the blood angels codex, and their one special character has rules specifying he's a BA. In fact, in his first iteration, he had two different rules specifying he was a BA.

3. You're making this argument so you can have a bunch of free transports and then get bonuses to them? Serious cheese. If I sat down to a game where someone said that's what they were doing, I'd pack up, because the time I wasted unpacking would be less of an investment than dealing with someone that desperate to get an advantage. Or, they have such a poor grasp of english that they can interpret it like that, in which case I still wouldn't want to play, due to headache over rules disputes that shouldn't be disputes.

Actually going by RAW you had to select your army with the rules in Codex Blood Angels while using Codex Space Marine profiles, then the space marines selected in this manner gains no extra chapter tactics rules because technically the Lamenter's entry never mentioned a specific Chapter Tactics, only how to select an army.

Soooo I guess enjoy the even more vanilla marines?

 commander dante wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't know what the deal is. RAI is transparently obvious. I cam in thinking the OP was confused, but, weird rules lawyering or something?

They're blood angels with a different chapter master, and follow the default way successor chapters work where they use the founding's rules unless it says otherwise.

GW writes really awkward and inconsistent rules sometimes, so you've gotta' lean on RAI if it's clear what that is.

Well im asking because the way i see it is...
(This is the Process for Building ANY army)
You Choose your Army (Space Marines)
You choose your Detachment (Lets say a Demi-Company Formation Detachment)
After Choosing your Detachment, you Choose your Chapter Tactics (Lamenters) (The Chapter Tactics rule states that it is chosen after the Detachment is chosen)
Lamenters Chapter Tactics state that the army is SELECTED using the rules in Codex Blood Angels (Selected being the key term) (And if it means to choose a Different Army, that is impossible as i have already chosen my Detachment)
You then SELECT the units in your Army (In this case it is telling me to use BA) so my Free Demi-Company Razorbacks have Overcharged Engines, as it is in the Profile/ Upgrades for Razorbacks

So a Lamenters Army IS a Space Marine Army and has all the benefits of Codex Space Marines (I.E AoD Dataslates and Formations), yet uses Codex:Blood Angels for Profiles

If a Lamenters army (or Detachment) is chosen using the rules in Codex: Blood Angels, why are you trying to use rules such as Formations found in Codex: Space Marines?

You choose Chapter Tactics "when choosing an army" and the army selection rules also tell us that, if Battle-Forged, you organise your units into Detachments, suggesting Detachment selection is done after unit selection.

Also, the Gladius for example restricts units to being of the Space Marines Faction, which units in Codex: Blood Angels are not.

Basically, for a multitude of reasons, what you are proposing just doesn't work.

"Presented here is a brief set of conversion guidelines intended to represent the Chapter Tactics of the various Space Marine
Chapters featured in Forge World’s Imperial Armour books for use in games of 6th edition Warhammer 40,000."

You're not being given rules for new Chapter tactics. You're being given a conversion guide, which sometimes includes new chapter tactics.

I dont get it, do you have a short memory? You posted this exact thread a year ago and everyone told you exactly the same thing. What do you think has changed in the interval?

ingtaer wrote:
I dont get it, do you have a short memory? You posted this exact thread a year ago and everyone told you exactly the same thing. What do you think has changed in the interval?

That's hilarious.

Link here for anyone who wants a laugh.

ingtaer wrote:
I dont get it, do you have a short memory? You posted this exact thread a year ago and everyone told you exactly the same thing. What do you think has changed in the interval?

It's like that one guy that keeps yelling one word during pictionary with Stewie in that Family Guy gag.

"If it wasn't right the first time why would it be right the next ten times?"

Everyone knows what he really wants is to use the OP Codex Space Marines formations with his blood angels (If I remember, he was very adamant that Blood Angels could use the Skyhammer Annhilation Force, even after the FAQ said no) and has been trying to find any loophole, no matter how oblique or abstract, to validate it.

...I'm baffled as to how this is complicated.

Is the title of the PDF misleading? Yes. It is a Chapter Tactics PDF - but I suppose that is shorted than 'How To Represent The Various Space Marine Armies In Forge World Publications In 6th Edition (onwards)'.

In the case of Lamenters - it quite clearly says to select the army from Codex: Blood Angels.

So you choose to select the army from Codex: Blood Angels.

Do Blood Angels have Chapter Tactics? No. Simples.

All the others either expand and present further rules or say to use Chapter Tactics (X).

This isn't difficult.

Wow, that's awesome, thanks for the link, Shine.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Link here for anyone who wants a laugh.

Thank you sir!