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It seems the majority of people voting in the poll understand the rulebook, which makes a change to the nonsense we usually get

Ceann wrote:
Wow the rulebook notes the difference... amazing.

Well the rulebook also has a section called special rules and when a special conflicts with a normal rule the special rule takes precedence.
Please notate the difference.

CTA states 12"
Deepstrike states 1"

But clearly we must ignore that deepstriking is a special rule.
We wouldn't ignore what a deployment rule says in regards to a special rule, we would never do that.
Except in the case of where it breaks a rule...oh wait, its doing that isn't it?
We follow infiltrating too don't we? And scouting?
Darn special rules, so clever.

CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?

CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?

GW writing often only addresses the default and rarely considers any other special rules that may be interacting with them. It's one of the problems with GW rule writing.

CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?


No...? It is itself a rule about adding ALLIES to your army that are treated as "enemy units". How can the rule be breaking itself.

CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?

It is the rule, it is telling you the rules for how these types of allies are added into your army and the restrictions involved.
This is about as disingenuous as saying a bolter is breaking the rules because a bolt pistol told you it shoots a shorter range.

Is deepstriking a special rule that supersedes these circumstances? Yes. It is in the special rules section after all.

Ceann wrote:

CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?

No...? It is itself a rule about adding ALLIES to your army that are treated as "enemy units". How can the rule be breaking itself.

All special rules are rules themselves.

The standard game operates under the assumption that all units in your army are of the same Faction. This is why Ally rules are saved until later on in the book and the last thing noted in Choosing Your Army.

Ceann wrote:

CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?

It is the rule, it is telling you the rules for how these types of allies are added into your army and the restrictions involved.
This is about as disingenuous as saying a bolter is breaking the rules because a bolt pistol told you it shoots a shorter range.

It is the standard rule that a model cannot get closer than 1" to an enemy model. In the MOVEMENT PHASE, under Movement Distance:

Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.

CTA changes that to 12" for the purposes of deploying. That is bending or breaking the game's rules.

Is come the apocalypse listed in the special rules section?
No.

Is deepstrike? Yes.

Does the special rules section notate it supercedes rules the conflict with it? Yes.

Are we deep striking within 1" of an enemy? No.

Problems I see? 0

How can the CTA rule be breaking a rule when it, itself, is the very rule stating what to do.

Ceann wrote:
Is come the apocalypse listed in the special rules section?
No.

Is deepstrike? Yes.

So? Location of a Special Rule means nothing. Not all Special Rules are listed in the Special Rules section. Just "Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list.", (BRB, Special Rules, What Special Rules Do I Have?, 3 pa).

Ceann wrote:
Does the special rules section notate it supercedes rules the conflict with it? Yes.

Deep Strike never addresses Ally rules any more then Assault Vehicle addresses Deep Strike or Arriving From Reserves.

Ceann wrote:
How can the CTA rule be breaking a rule when it, itself, is the very rule stating what to do.

Because CTA is a special rule. It operates not at the basic level of the game's rules. It is an Advanced Rule. It is counter to the normal rules for deployment and how close you can move to an Enemy unit.

What's the difference between 'deploying for battle' and just 'deploying'?

*Facepalm*
OK sure, RAW they cant be summoned due to deploying within 12" yada yada

But lets be honest here
A. People have been doing it since 7th dropped
B. Going "WELL ACTUALLY" after someone tries to summon daemons is a BAD MOVE
C. Summoning Daemons is the basis for MANY lists

 commander dante wrote:
*Facepalm*
OK sure, RAW they cant be summoned due to deploying within 12" yada yada

Only if it happens to be 'deploying for battle'. So how is 'deploying for battle' different than just 'deploying'?

CTA is a basic rule for allies, not a special rule. The notation of the special rules section is to inform you that special rules will be on datasheets and codex and that the list is not all inclusive.

It is not a paintbrush handed to you to paint anything you perceive as a special rule to be one.

Ceann wrote:
CTA is a basic rule for allies, not a special rule. The notation of the special rules section is to inform you that special rules will be on datasheets and codex and that the list is not all inclusive.

It is not a paintbrush handed to you to paint anything you perceive as a special rule to be one.

That doesn't define what a basic rule is, though. Allies, in and of themselves, are advanced rules, even special rules.
Basic rules are:

apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules:

apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Special rules:

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

While CTA is basic to Allies rules, Ally rules are not basic to the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 commander dante wrote:
*Facepalm*
OK sure, RAW they cant be summoned due to deploying within 12" yada yada

But lets be honest here
A. People have been doing it since 7th dropped
B. Going "WELL ACTUALLY" after someone tries to summon daemons is a BAD MOVE
C. Summoning Daemons is the basis for MANY lists

Technically this would apply just as much to Sternguard riding Drop Pods or any of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force just as much as it would to any Conjured Daemons.

But remember that the original question on the thread was, "why would this be a problem?" The problem is that the rules were not written to take this consideration in to account. And I was providing the written reason for this problem. People have been trying to wave away the issue by denying how the rulebook structures everything else in connection to it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Maelific Daemonology was written before CTA were allowed to play in your army and came with that restriction. So many of the BRB changes between 6th and 7th show this short-sightedness, such as lousy explanation for Super-Heavy Shooting with the Shooting Sequence or the definition of Psyker for the Psychic Phase rules.

Personally, I have no problem if someone wanted to do Ultramarines summoning Daemons (Black Templars summoning Daemons I would have some problems with, mostly due to breaking their Tactics to do it) in a game. I am merely pointing out what the written rules are.

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

col_impact wrote:
Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

Summoning is done by deep striking
Deep strike is referred to as deployment

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

Summoning is done by deep striking
Deep strike is referred to as deployment

That's cool but that is not what I asked.

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

Summoning is done by deep striking
Deep strike is referred to as deployment

That's cool but that is not what I asked.

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

They aren't different things

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

They aren't different things

Cool. But as you know I can't just take your word for it. Where does it say that in the rules?

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

They aren't different things

Cool. But as you know I can't just take your word for it. Where does it say that in the rules?

Where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

Where does it say "Deploying" and "deploying for battle" are different in the rules?

 CrownAxe wrote:

Where does it say "Deploying" and "deploying for battle" are different in the rules?

CtA allies specify 'when deploying for battle' as the condition when you cannot deploy within 12".



So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

(Deployment subtitle- Preparing for battle BRB)

There is where 'Deploying for battle' is

Not so hard when you apply common sense.

DEPLOYMENT

The only thing that remains to be done is the deployment of the two armies. If you are
using a Warhammer 40,000 mission, it will tell you how to deploy the armies taking part
in the battle. You will need to agree on the method you will use in your own games.
We’ve included rules for the most common method used to deploy here. This is often
referred to as the ‘Standard Deployment Method’ and is the method used in the majority
of Warhammer 40,000 missions. You should feel free to devise other methods for your
own game if you prefer. For example, some players like to place a screen across the centre
of the table so that their armies can deploy in secret; others draw a map showing where
they plan to deploy their units, and so on.

Whichever method you use, models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or
be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or
Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units
may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully
within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone
and part of the model outside it!

There is the ruling. nowhere does it state anything about summoning

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Where does it say "Deploying" and "deploying for battle" are different in the rules?

CtA allies specify 'when deploying for battle' as the condition when you cannot deploy within 12".

Spoiler:

Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.

Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?



'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.


So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.

Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?

Spoiler:

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.


So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?

The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.

 CrownAxe wrote:

What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?

The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.

Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.

'Deploying' as a general term can occur during the game.


So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.

Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?

Spoiler:

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.


So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

We don't need any of that.
Deepstrike is a special rule.
Deepstrike states the circumstances that will cause a mishap.
1" of an enemy.

CTA is a rule for allies, it is not a special rule.

Deepstrike supercedes whatever rules are for CTA.
Deepstrike away.

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?

The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.

Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.

'Deploying' as a general term can occur during the game.


So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?

The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"

 CrownAxe wrote:

The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"

The rules don't agree with you.

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"

The rules don't agree with you.

'Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.

Fixed it for you

Can't use that word "deploy" its a trigger word.

I already brought this up via the fact that there are 4 steps listed for deployment.

Step 2 is the player who won the roll deploys
and
Step 4 is the played who DEPLOYED...

But this is a battle that never starts.

So I just go for deepstrike special rule superseding the CTA rules, goodbye basic rule for allies.

Ceann wrote:
Can't use that word "deploy" its a trigger word.

I already brought this up via the fact that there are 4 steps listed for deployment.

Step 2 is the player who won the roll deploys
and
Step 4 is the played who DEPLOYED...

But this is a battle that never starts.

So I just go for deepstrike special rule superseding the CTA rules, goodbye basic rule for allies.

Why would Deep Strike supercede CTA rules when there is no conflict?

Short version?

CTA has some verbiage about deploying withing 12" of CTA units. Which leads some to think that if you summon demons because the unit is CTA they automatically mishap.