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2017/04/10 16:00:57
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
Actually, in many cases, in first-aid for example, they teach you to do nothing if you aren't sure you will help, because many times, trying to help without knowing how to help, can make things worse.
I'm not saying this to devaluate what you have said. I think that its obvius that something has to be done in Syria. I'm only pointing this out to remember that, in some cases, the act of not acting, its the better option.
Now, in the Syrian civil war... the problem here its that the legitimate democratic opposition that Assad has at the begining of the conflict has been totally crushed by both ISIS and other fundamentalistic islamic forces, the "moderate rebels" as they call them... ugh, (That have been financed by Europe and USA) and the regimen of Assad (That receive help of Russia and Iran)
So, now, whoever wins, the people of Syria will lose.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/10 16:03:15
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/04/10 16:03:53
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
So then this becomes a situation like I started out with, like witnessing an accident in progress. Or even better, a crime. Some get involved, others don't.
Nope
Nope
Nope
You missed it completely. I am against it because:
1. Every time we have intervened things have gotten worse. THIS IS NOT A CAR WRECK THIS IS A MULTIFACTION CIVIL WAR. It will not win until one faction wins. The longer it takes the bloodier it will be.
2. I am sick and tired of politicians sending off men and women to die for #1.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 16:13:21
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: Well okay then, you've convinced me. I am all for Assad gassing as many people as he likes. As well as any other despot who wishes to do the same.
And if gassing will end the war quicker, why not just give Assad a nuke. I am sure he'll use it. And things will get over real quickly.
Well you could go and join one of the rebel groups fighting. Might be killed for being a Christian of course.
Its not that we are "all for it" its that its not a compelling interest of the US,and we need to quit bombing people all over the place.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 16:30:03
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
I've been reading this and the earlier posts in the US Politics thread, and I am kind of surprised about the debate going on. Even more surprising is that my girlfriend is Iranian (been in the US for her 3rd year now), and how drastically she saw things differently than I did. But I expect that. I also expect debate between supporters of Assad against non-supporters, but I am even more surprised by those within the non-supporters of Assad, like shown in this thread.
I think you can actually chart the train of thought in these debates, and branch them out like a tree.
I believe the first instinctual thought we all have really boils down to how far you would go to help others. Some witness a terrible car accident as its happening, and some immediately stop to see if they can provide assistance, and others say wow that sucks and keep driving. A lot of people do keep driving. That's just the way many people are.
The second debate falls into how far someone will go to help someone. Some will provide the shirt off their back, others limited. The same goes with the expectations they have in their country for those outside their country. If you feel it should be active in helping others, when you are okay with the government taking taking action, if you are not, you rather it wouldn't. Sort of, 'its up to them to sort out'.
And of course, there is the level of how badly these others are suffering too. The worse it gets the more motivated we naturally are the more we want it stopped.
I think that every side of every argument we are having here begins with those thoughts.
Now, history has shown that ALL countries involved have done some pretty shady things, if not flat out wrong, in the last 100 years. The US and Russia each have conspired and in some cases actually been instrumental in overthrowing governments that were not supportive of them, or support those that did, but were terrible to their own people. Whether its the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe or Afghanistan, or the US in Central/South America and the Middle East. Shady things have been done, and are still being done.
Its easy to say 'its their problem' or 'we shouldn't get involved' or 'we should be doing something'. In the end, most of us are all good people and we all hope that everyone could have the same benefits many of us enjoy, but unfortunately don't. Some people what to help spread democracy for example, believing the world will be a better place, and others view that as too idealistic, and don't want to get involved. There are valid arguments on both sides.
I think if we've learned anything about the rights and wrongs the US and Russia has done, especially in the Cold War, is that supporting repressive governments that mistreats its own people is wrong. We wouldn't want that on ourselves, and we deep down hate to see that happening to others too. The Syrian Civil war began with the Arab Spring/Iranian Green movements, and for a reason. Assad is a real piece of gak. There is no justification of supporting or even liking that man. If you are from a country that is supporting that guy by keeping him in power, your government is wrong. Its that simple. They should be supporting the people as a whole.
Sure Syria has been an ally of Russia for some time, but I think Russia's only real interest is to have some kind of influence in the region, as well as being able to keep their little naval facility in Tartus. For the Iranians its different. When Saddam invaded Iran (which the US supported to some degree), Syria was the ONLY Arab country to criticize and not support Iraq. So Iran genuinely sees Assad's government as a friend.
Now I despise Assad, Putin, and Ayatollah Khamenei. I might be more willing to listen to their side if all three granted their OWN people the same benefits and rights that all people should enjoy, but they don't. They are all piece of gak thugs. The Syrian people began their revolution because conditions inside Syria drove them to. The world should have been on their side. Russia and Iran support the minority side that the people were rebelling from to begin with.
Now (after previous instances and an agreement NOT to do something like this again), Assad has gassed his own people. The US Military can track every pigeon flying in Syria right now, and they can track the fighter taking off from that airbase to the site where the gas was dropped, and its return to that base. That is why that air base was bombed. That is enough proof for me. You are probably never going to see a written order, or a pilot confess, as proof that Assad's forces carried this out. You are going to either believe that they are capable of doing this AGAIN, or you aren't no matter what.
So then this becomes a situation like I started out with, like witnessing an accident in progress. Or even better, a crime. Some get involved, others don't.
In my mind, something needed to be done. A message had to have been sent, because if none had, this would have happened again. And if it does, then this strike will look like it wasn't strong enough, and a greater strike will follow until these actions are stopped. If Assad were allowed to continue gassing his own people, then you will start seeing this behavior spread all around the world.
Finally, when my girlfriend (again who is Iranian) learned of the strike she went into an emotional rage. Now she has no love for her government, hates them rather, but is very pro Persian. She has a friend in school here who's family is in Damascus, and her friend was very upset. My girlfriend now assumed the US would do the same to Syria as they had done to Iraq and Afghanistan, which I found very hypocritical considering that the war in Syria had been going on for 7 years now, and I didn't see her get anywhere near upset over the gas attacks themselves. Which left me baffled. And I have seen this all over the internet. Assad bombs his own people, its a news story. The US bombs an evacuated air base as a warning to stop doing that, and the world loses its gak.
Her parents back in Iran btw, thought Trump bombing Syria was a great thing, something I also found surprising considering Iran's involvement in Syria. But they are not supportive of Assad gassing his own people either.
Yes bullets kill, so do bombs and missiles, and many, many children have already died in this war, and will continue doing so. But lines can be crossed even in horrific conditions as those, and certain things cannot be allowed to become standard. It doesn't matter if you are from the US, UK, Russia, Syria, the Moon or Mars, gassing your OWN people is about as heinous as it gets. You have to agree that is wrong, or there is just something wrong with you. Now the argument on what to do about it, after diplomacy fails can be debated, but doing nothing is just going to give Assad a green light to continue, which can't happen. And keep in mind, the planet has 7 billion people living on it. If it were motivated, it could stop what is happening in 15 minutes if it wanted, but too many people don't want to get involved, which is a tragedy itself.
Now Trump's travel ban affects me personally. It has prevented my girlfriend's parents from visiting, and it also means she can't leave the country and then come back. I have never had a US President have a direct impact on a relationship I was in before, and its pissed me off (not to mention all the stress its cause my GF, which I have to deal with). But I was glad to see Trump do something on this. It showed, that despite all of his other issues, that deep down he can look at a terrible situation, and at least try to do something to stop it, which in my mind, is a thousand times better than doing nothing. Everything else, from long term strategy or relations with others, can be debated later. At the end of the day, Russia and Iran have supported a guy willing to gas innocent women and children, and that will be their legacy in this. The majority of the world which has sat back and done nothing, well, that will be their legacy. Trump at least, has tried to do something.
I think all of us here agree that Assad is bad. The problem however lies in the fact that the situation is not simply black and white. It is incredibly complicated. For example, while Assad is bad he nowhere near as bad as some of the other groups that vie for power in Syria, who among other things massacre or enslave entire towns or villages simply because its inhabitants have a slightly different religion. Therefore, many people reason that doing anything that harms Assad is bad, because it harms his ability to keep those even worse forces at bay and prolongs the suffering of the people that have fallen under control of those groups. So yes, while this missile strike could maybe prevent further gas attacks, it may also lead to ISIS or Ahrar-al-Sham being able to capture and exterminate more 'infidel' villages. Is 'making a statement' really a good thing if it leads to much greater suffering than that it prevents?
And what if Assad simply fails to heed this statement? Will this strike still have been a good thing then, even if it had no effect beyond just killing even more people?
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2017/04/10 16:33:31
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
Wars are bad, normally they haven't good or bad, and even then, a War its a War, and all the participants make bad things in it.
But a Civil War its a totally different matter, its even worse, and more complicated, because the reasons for that War can vary drastically from country to country and normally its very hard for a external army to intervene knowing exactly the relations and causes for that Civil War.
So we need to stop putting "bad guys" and "good guys" labels into a Civil War, with totally different values than us. That isn't gonna help to resolve things to the better.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/04/10 16:44:14
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
No, you have me convinced. If Assad has to break a few eggs to make an omelet that's fine with me.
If presented with a opportunity to do something, its best we just sit back and allow it, maybe even encourage it, as the faster it wraps up the better, regardless of who is in charge after. Maybe give poison gas to all sides, then it will equal things out a bit and make it more fair. I mean, imagine if all sides managed to kill each other off, then we wouldn't have any issues there at all, as no one would be left. That's why I think we can just move aside the gas and hand out just enough nukes to kill everyone in the area. I know some of you would be okay with this but just don't want to admit it publicly.
As long as it doesn't affect us directly. I can just as surely sit back and shrug my shoulders while watching CNN with you. As a matter of fact, since I live in Florida, I don't even have to care what's going on in Georgia or Alabama. I am good just thinking about us in Florida. As a matter of fact, I don't even have to worry about whats going on in the state, I only care about my county. Actually I dont have to worry about my county, I just care about the town I live in. Actually, thinking more about that, I don't even have to care about the town, I only care about my neighborhood. Actually, I sort of care about the neighbors, I am more concerned about my house.
So the whole world can go to gak so long as I am left alone in my house, I really don't care.
Sounds awesome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 16:46:47
2017/04/10 16:50:49
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: No, you have me convinced. If Assad has to break a few eggs to make an omelet that's fine with me.
If presented with a opportunity to do something, its best we just sit back and allow it, maybe even encourage it, as the faster it wraps up the better, regardless of who is in charge after. Maybe give poison gas to all sides, then it will equal things out a bit and make it more fair. I mean, imagine if all sides managed to kill each other off, then we wouldn't have any issues there at all, as no one would be left. That's why I think we can just move aside the gas and hand out just enough nukes to kill everyone in the area. I know some of you would be okay with this but just don't want to admit it publicly.
As long as it doesn't affect us directly. I can just as surely sit back and shrug my shoulders while watching CNN with you. As a matter of fact, since I live in Florida, I don't even have to care what's going on in Georgia or Alabama. I am good just thinking about us in Florida. As a matter of fact, I don't even have to worry about whats going on in the state, I only care about my county. Actually I dont have to worry about my county, I just care about the town I live in. Actually, thinking more about that, I don't even have to care about the town, I only care about my neighborhood. Actually, I sort of care about the neighbors, I am more concerned about my house.
So the whole world can go to gak so long as I am left alone in my house, I really don't care.
Sounds awesome.
You left out the part where your version of caring is sending someone else's son or daughter to go die for your feelz.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 17:02:40
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
If they signed up to serve to defend America's interests, then yes.
Don't be naive and think that the US Armed Forces only exist to defend the homeland.
But don't worry, I am not on board with that. Just crossing my fingers that everyone in Syria can be killed so we all can move on from this. Lord knows I am sick of hearing about it in the news.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is that huge humanitarian crisis in South Sudan too. People actually starving to death. And no one is doing anything about it. That is the poster right there to show what turning away and not getting involved can accomplish. Maybe a whole generation of South Sudanise can be killed off and we won't have to hear about South Sudan anymore either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 17:06:47
2017/04/10 17:15:05
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: If they signed up to serve to defend America's interests, then yes.
But they aren't defending US interests. They are defending your feelz.
Don't be naive and think that the US Armed Forces only exist to defend the homeland.
I'm not. Imagine all the wars we would have avoided though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is that huge humanitarian crisis in South Sudan too. People actually starving to death. And no one is doing anything about it. That is the poster right there to show what turning away and not getting involved can accomplish. Maybe a whole generation of South Sudanise can be killed off and we won't have to hear about South Sudan anymore either.
How did Somalia work out?
How did Lebanon work out?
We're still in Bosnia.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 17:19:57
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: If they signed up to serve to defend America's interests, then yes.
Don't be naive and think that the US Armed Forces only exist to defend the homeland.
But don't worry, I am not on board with that. Just crossing my fingers that everyone in Syria can be killed so we all can move on from this. Lord knows I am sick of hearing about it in the news.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is that huge humanitarian crisis in South Sudan too. People actually starving to death. And no one is doing anything about it. That is the poster right there to show what turning away and not getting involved can accomplish. Maybe a whole generation of South Sudanise can be killed off and we won't have to hear about South Sudan anymore either.
Darfur doesn't get the coverage that it used to, that's true. And the situation in Sudan is still terrible. Of course we don't hear much about rebuilding Haiti after the earthquake in 2010 and there's still suffering there, same goes for the flooding in Pakistan in 2010 that created a humanitarian crisis, the ongoing violence in central Africa, the ongoing recovery from drought in Somalia, the current Ebola virus outbreak in west Africa. There's quite a long list of humanitarian crisis in the world that the US hasn't gone out and single handedly solved. Of course we still haven't fixed all of our domestic crisis either, New Orleans is still rebuilding from Katrina, the massive flooding in the Midwest from last year is still being cleaned up, the repercussions from Super Storm Sandy are still evident in the Northeast.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/04/10 17:25:24
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
Hey no one solved those first two problems so what was the point in trying, right? Why do anything at all? I don't see genocide still going on in Bosnia so they one of three is still better than zero out of three.
But seriously, you don't have to convince me. I was just thinking about all the violence in Chi-town (that's Chicago to you international homies). What do I care that mostly black gang bangers are shooting up their neighborhoods? I don't live there. The sooner they kill every man woman and child, the faster those crime stats go down.
There are a whole slew of areas we can avoid and let those who can't help themselves spin further down the spiral so long as it doesn't affect us directly.
And if I find out that a portion of my federal taxes is being used to prevent crime in Illinois then I am writing my congressman.
2017/04/10 17:36:40
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: I've been reading this and the earlier posts in the US Politics thread, and I am kind of surprised about the debate going on. Even more surprising is that my girlfriend is Iranian (been in the US for her 3rd year now), and how drastically she saw things differently than I did. But I expect that. I also expect debate between supporters of Assad against non-supporters, but I am even more surprised by those within the non-supporters of Assad, like shown in this thread.
I think you can actually chart the train of thought in these debates, and branch them out like a tree.
I believe the first instinctual thought we all have really boils down to how far you would go to help others. Some witness a terrible car accident as its happening, and some immediately stop to see if they can provide assistance, and others say wow that sucks and keep driving. A lot of people do keep driving. That's just the way many people are.
Lets be fair, there are a lot of good reasons for people to keep driving in most instances. If they dont have any meaningful way to help, may not have any helpful equipment, dont know the situation, dont know how to help, there may be some other danger present, or they may have other even more pressing problems, help may not be wanted, or any number of other things, then it's best for them not to stop. Stopping to help is not just a matter of willingness, you have to have the means, knowledge, ability and opportunity as well.
Same thing with Syria. Except in this case the people stuck in the side of the road are also actively fighting each other in the nastiest ways, and half a dozen other people have also pulled over to "help" their particular chosen rider, and they're all armed, and all have competing interests. Helping, in a truly meaningful way, becomes very difficult in that kind of situation.
Now (after previous instances and an agreement NOT to do something like this again), Assad has gassed his own people. The US Military can track every pigeon flying in Syria right now, and they can track the fighter taking off from that airbase to the site where the gas was dropped, and its return to that base. That is why that air base was bombed. That is enough proof for me. You are probably never going to see a written order, or a pilot confess, as proof that Assad's forces carried this out. You are going to either believe that they are capable of doing this AGAIN, or you aren't no matter what.
Well, the problem you see is that the same government that is assuring us that this actually happened, and happened the way they say it did, is the same government that outright lied about these exact same things before, citing a vast array of supposed intelligence, that got us stuck into a neighboring nation for the last 14 years, costing us trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of local dead, for what ultimately turned out to be an outright fabrication and very little in terms of positive outcomes and we *still* havent resolved that debacle.
Even if they are capable of doing it again (which by all accounts is the case) the scale and results of the incidents thus far are not any different than could be accomplished with conventional explosive bombs, so the question then must also be asked, what are we reacting to that they arent already doing anyway that we otherwise allow?
In my mind, something needed to be done. A message had to have been sent, because if none had, this would have happened again.
We come to a conundrum here. Innocent people are killed in large numbers every day in equally horrific ways in this conflict, and have been for *years. We only seem to care when one abstract rule is *allegedly* broken, despite the ultimate results being no different from daily occurrences which are equally "illegal" and horrifying.
If you didnt care enough about innocent people being shelled, bombed, shot, stabbed, buried alive, tortured, burned, etc, to demand military action before, why do you suddenly care about them being gassed so much more that it is suddenly worth a military strike?
More to the point, ultimately, what is our nine digit investment (for this single attack) buying for the people of Syria in this instance? By our own admission, according to McMaster, these attacks did not destroy Assad's ability to do this again. The airfield is still operational. People are still dying in horrific ways. The only people that paid a price were those working at the airfield that didnt get an evacuation notice, little people like technicians and loaders and maintenance workers in all likelihood. The Russians were forwarned and we must assume that Assad was as well via Russia, and that anything of true value had attempts made to preserve it. We have not shaken Assad's position, we have not destroyed the chemical attack capability, we have not changed anything important on the ground, not changed the strategic, operational, or even tactical landscape of the war. We spent a large sum to slap Assad on the wrist and break a few of his toys in order to feel better about ourselves for one arbitrarily chosen act of excess barbarism out of tens of thousands of such barbarous acts.
Doing something is not automatically the same thing as helping, and when we're willing to sit by and allow heinous and illegal acts to happen on a daily basis, and only act in very specific exceptions which have no material difference in outcome to thousands of other acts, and even then not act in any truly decisive manner (and such may not be possible without risk of dangerous escalation) then our response comes off as either selective self righteous chest beating to soothe or own moral qualms ("yay we did something, we're helping see?!"), or cover for an ulterior motive.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/04/10 17:41:57
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: Hey no one solved those first two problems so what was the point in trying, right? Why do anything at all? I don't see genocide still going on in Bosnia so they one of three is still better than zero out of three.
But seriously, you don't have to convince me. I was just thinking about all the violence in Chi-town (that's Chicago to you international homies). What do I care that mostly black gang bangers are shooting up their neighborhoods? I don't live there. The sooner they kill every man woman and child, the faster those crime stats go down.
There are a whole slew of areas we can avoid and let those who can't help themselves spin further down the spiral so long as it doesn't affect us directly.
And if I find out that a portion of my federal taxes is being used to prevent crime in Illinois then I am writing my congressman.
OK smart guy, who do we back?
How do we back them?
How is that different then now?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 17:57:05
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
That's def going to take some longer thought, and I highly doubt we'll ever see a whole Syria in our lifetimes again. More likely it will be loosely tied together under a name, but areas will be controlled by different factions for years to come. That doesn't mean to green light the use of poison gas in the meantime!
I am not saying Syria isn't f***ed. I am saying that the same people who don't want to get involved over the use of chemical weapons are also many of the same people who didn't want to get involved earlier, allowing only the most radical groups to succeed. Not properly supporting the moderates isn't far off from not doing anything about the use of chemical weapons.
Are you seriously going to be okay with everyone using those? Cause that is where we would be heading if that is allowed to continue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/10 17:58:25
2017/04/10 17:59:40
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: Hey no one solved those first two problems so what was the point in trying, right? Why do anything at all? I don't see genocide still going on in Bosnia so they one of three is still better than zero out of three.
But seriously, you don't have to convince me. I was just thinking about all the violence in Chi-town (that's Chicago to you international homies). What do I care that mostly black gang bangers are shooting up their neighborhoods? I don't live there. The sooner they kill every man woman and child, the faster those crime stats go down.
There are a whole slew of areas we can avoid and let those who can't help themselves spin further down the spiral so long as it doesn't affect us directly.
And if I find out that a portion of my federal taxes is being used to prevent crime in Illinois then I am writing my congressman.
OK smart guy, who do we back?
How do we back them?
How is that different then now?
the answer there is the hard way, it's easy to back someone to help kill the other ones. violence is never a solution, it always just brings more violence. It's time for just some good ol fashioned diplomacy. Sit down all the players in a room and actually talk to all of them to find out what they each want, and see if some common ground emerges for a compromise.
2017/04/10 18:00:49
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
And let's imagine Assad continues to stock like those weapons, and he should lose a bunch. God forbid that happens. Imagine terrorists getting their hands on some of those weapons and setting them off at a train station or mall in Europe.
2017/04/10 18:01:11
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: That's def going to take some longer thought, and I highly doubt we'll ever see a whole Syria in our lifetimes again. More likely it will be loosely tied together under a name, but areas will be controlled by different factions for years to come. That doesn't mean to green light the use of poison gas in the meantime!
I am not saying Syria isn't f***ed. I am saying that the same people who don't want to get involved over the use of chemical weapons are also many of the same people who didn't want to get involved earlier, allowing only the most radical groups to succeed. Not properly supporting the moderates isn't far off from not doing anything about the use of chemical weapons.
Are you seriously going to be okay with everyone using those? Cause that is where we would be heading if that is allowed to continue.
I noticed you didn't answer my question. Who would you back;? How would you back them? What if Russia carpet bombs them?
One group we backed defected and joined up with Al Nusra. Another shot it out with a third group we were backing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 18:02:11
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 18:04:55
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
sirlynchmob wrote: the answer there is the hard way, it's easy to back someone to help kill the other ones. violence is never a solution, it always just brings more violence. It's time for just some good ol fashioned diplomacy. Sit down all the players in a room and actually talk to all of them to find out what they each want, and see if some common ground emerges for a compromise.
Actually sometimes violence is the answer. If I have no intention of talking, or taking the talks seriously, what are you going to do? It's a nice theory and works sometimes, but sometimes you also do have to kill people unfortunately. But if you are going to kill people, be sure it's for the right cause.
KTG17 wrote: That's def going to take some longer thought, and I highly doubt we'll ever see a whole Syria in our lifetimes again. More likely it will be loosely tied together under a name, but areas will be controlled by different factions for years to come. That doesn't mean to green light the use of poison gas in the meantime!
I am not saying Syria isn't f***ed. I am saying that the same people who don't want to get involved over the use of chemical weapons are also many of the same people who didn't want to get involved earlier, allowing only the most radical groups to succeed. Not properly supporting the moderates isn't far off from not doing anything about the use of chemical weapons.
Are you seriously going to be okay with everyone using those? Cause that is where we would be heading if that is allowed to continue.
I noticed you didn't answer my question. Who would you back;? How would you back them? What if Russia carpet bombs them?
One group we backed defected and joined up with Al Nusra. Another shot it out with a third group we were backing.
Yes I did answer, I said I would need a whole lot more time to think about it, and then ended it with saying that's no reason to allow for the continued use of poison gas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of the extremists and Assad's forces killing each other off. What I do have a problem with is dropping chemical weapons on civilians.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/10 18:10:10
2017/04/10 18:31:03
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
There are no civilians in a civil war. Not being snarky. That apparently is the only truth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 18:33:32
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 18:32:57
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
Whats so civil about war anyway...
-Guns and Roses
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 18:37:11
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/04/10 20:11:03
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
CptJake wrote: Bombing runways is very unproductive. I'm good friends with one of the lead targeteers for one of the services and as he puts it "The first thing I teach when we go over airfields is you don't target runways'.
They are too easily and quickly repaired to be worth the munitions in most cases (the exception being if you MUST have a specific airfield runway unusable for a specific window of time to enable some other operation).
The fact we didn't turn the runways into "any highway in Michigan" speaks directly to the professionalism of the targeteers and weaponeers who planned the strike. They knew what they were doing.
I have to laugh at the idea that cratering the runway would have stopped a second attack. No. It would have delayed a second attack from that particular airstrip. Maybe for a couple days, tops. Unless we actively conducted strikes at the repair operations, which kind of would negated the one time punishment strike intent of the operation...
I did say start with the tower & radars, airports don't run very well without air traffic control. Then since you have 58ish missiles left, might as well drop some on the runway.
days later is still better than the very next day. days gives time for negotiations to happen, you know that diplomacy stuff. As it is now that whole operation really looks like a giant failure, with even russia & syria now issuing the US ultimatums. So now we get to wait and see if trump backs down and makes us look even weaker.
Syrian military assets: Fuel, hardened bunkers, munitions and a Russian-made surface-to-air missile system were targeted by the strikes.
Syrian planes: The Pentagon believes about 20 Syrian aircraft were destroyed, though it is hard to say exactly how many were taken out, as some planes were inside bunkers that were destroyed.
Asked to assess how losing those planes would degrade Assad’s military, the official declined to offer a figure but noted that “20 aircraft out of their inventory is going to make an impact.”
What wasn’t targeted
Chemical warfare bunkers: The Pentagon was careful to avoid hitting anything they believed to be storage for chemical warfare materials, in order to not unleash those weapons.
The runway: Shyrat has a 10,000-foot runway, but that wasn’t targeted in the strike. Asked why, the officials said that didn’t fit into the “proportionality” they were going for and noted that, as they were using Tomahawks, “it would have been a waste of a munition on the airfield.”
Russia: The Pentagon believes there are up to 100 Russian personnel on the base, and the mission plan was created specifically so the strikes would not target Russian citizens or assets. Ahead of the strikes, Russia was warned the Tomahawks were incoming so they would not “read the attack” wrong, the second official said.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/04/10 20:12:57
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
KTG17 wrote: That's def going to take some longer thought, and I highly doubt we'll ever see a whole Syria in our lifetimes again. More likely it will be loosely tied together under a name, but areas will be controlled by different factions for years to come. That doesn't mean to green light the use of poison gas in the meantime!
I am not saying Syria isn't f***ed. I am saying that the same people who don't want to get involved over the use of chemical weapons are also many of the same people who didn't want to get involved earlier, allowing only the most radical groups to succeed. Not properly supporting the moderates isn't far off from not doing anything about the use of chemical weapons.
Are you seriously going to be okay with everyone using those? Cause that is where we would be heading if that is allowed to continue.
ISIS already has chemical weapons and has used them 52 times in Iraq and Syria (and that was the tally in November 2016, 4 months ago)
Credit Bryan Denton for The New York Times
WASHINGTON — The Islamic State has used chemical weapons, including chlorine and sulfur mustard agents, at least 52 times on the battlefield in Syria and Iraq since it swept to power in 2014, according to a new independent analysis.
More than one-third of those chemical attacks have come in and around Mosul, the Islamic State stronghold in northern Iraq, according to the assessment by the IHS Conflict Monitor, a London-based intelligence collection and analysis service.
The IHS conclusions, which are based on local news reports, social media and Islamic State propaganda, mark the broadest compilation of chemical attacks in the conflict. American and Iraqi military officials have expressed growing alarm over the prospect of additional chemical attacks as the allies press to regain both Mosul and Raqqa, the Islamic State capital in Syria.
I don't think having the US moderately damage an airfield with cruise missiles is going to prevent the usage of chemical weapons in Syria.
The conflict has been going on for six years and so far nobody has managed to propose a comprehensive workable solution to ending it. Yes it's terrible that there are millions suffering in Syria but that doesn't mean it's a good idea for the US to do something just for the sake of doing something. While I have confidence in General Mattis' abilities as Secretary of Defense I don't think he can come up with a plan for intervention wherein the US military invades and occupies Syria, deposes Assad, negates Russian influence in the country, eliminates ISIS and other fundamentalist terrorist factions as a military and political threat, installs a new government that is allied with US interests and expends the enormous effort and expense to support that new government for the decades it will take to rebuild and unify the country. We couldn't unify Afghanistan under a new regime, we didn't have the political will to stay in Iraq until it was completely stabilized and self sufficient, I don't see us accomplishing both in Syria and I certainly don't think Donald Trump is the leader who should be trying to do it.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/04/10 20:31:52
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States has concluded Russia knew in advance of Syria's chemical weapons attack last week, a senior U.S. official said Monday.
The official said a drone operated by Russians was flying over a hospital as victims of the attack were rushing to get treatment. Hours after the drone left, a Russian-made fighter jet bombed the hospital in what American officials believe was an attempt to cover up the usage of chemical weapons.
The official said the presence of the surveillance drone over the hospital couldn't have been a coincidence, and that Russia must have known the chemical weapons attack was coming and that victims were seeking treatment.
The official, who wasn't authorized to speak publicly on intelligence matters and demanded anonymity, didn't give precise timing for when the drone was above the northern Syrian town of Khan Sheikhtoun, where more than 80 people were killed. He also didn't provide all the details for the military and intelligence information that form the basis of what he said the Pentagon has now concluded.
The allegation is grave, even by the standards of the currently dismal U.S.-Russian relations.
Although Russia has steadfastly supported Syrian President Bashar Assad's government, and they've coordinated military attacks together, Washington has never previously accused Moscow of complicity in any attack that involved the gassing of innocent civilians, including children. The former Cold War foes even worked together in 2013 to remove and destroy more than 1,300 tons of Syrian chemical weapons and agents.
Until Monday, U.S. officials had said they weren't sure whether Russia or Syria operated the drone. The official said the U.S. is now convinced Russia controlled the drone. The official said it still isn't clear who was flying the jet that bombed the hospital, because the Syrians also fly Russian-made aircraft.
U.S. officials previously have said Russians routinely work with Syrians at the Shayrat air base where the attack is supposed to have originated. U.S. officials say the chemical weapons were stored there.
Those elements, the senior official said, add to the conclusion that Russia was complicit in the attack.
Last Thursday 59 Tomahawk missiles were fired on the government-controlled base in the United States' first direct military action against Assad's forces.
The U.S. has been focusing its military action in Syria on defeating the Islamic State group.
On Monday, Col. John J. Thomas, a U.S. military spokesman, said the U.S. has taken extra defensive precautions in Syria in case of possible retaliation against American forces for the cruise missile attack.
Thomas told reporters at the Pentagon that the increased emphasis on defensive measures to protect U.S. troops on the ground in Syria led to a slight and temporary decline in offensive U.S. airstrikes against IS in Syria.
There has been no Syrian retaliation so far for the cruise missile attack, which destroyed or rendered inoperable more than 20 Syria air force planes, he said.
Thomas said the U.S. intends to return to full offensive air operations against IS as soon as possible.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2017/04/10 22:07:10
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
One of the better videos I've seen showing damage to the airfield.
Note the penetrating hits on specific bunkers and destruction of what was in them, targeting of auxiliary/maintenance equipment and so on.
Yeah, they were able to sweep the runways clear. Doesn't go towards mitigating the loss of 20 or so aircraft, a huge chunk of their air to air ordinance, and some of the specialized machinery and so on that they lost.
The chem stuff was deliberately not targeted according to the article I posted above.
Part of the intent here was to show how good our targeting is and how accurate the weapons are, and how even without endangering our pilots how precise we can be.
Folks wanting to claim the strike was a failure really don't know what they are talking about. We wanted to hit specific things, and did so.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2017/04/11 00:05:02
Subject: Re:US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
One of the better videos I've seen showing damage to the airfield.
Note the penetrating hits on specific bunkers and destruction of what was in them, targeting of auxiliary/maintenance equipment and so on.
Yeah, they were able to sweep the runways clear. Doesn't go towards mitigating the loss of 20 or so aircraft, a huge chunk of their air to air ordinance, and some of the specialized machinery and so on that they lost.
The chem stuff was deliberately not targeted according to the article I posted above.
Part of the intent here was to show how good our targeting is and how accurate the weapons are, and how even without endangering our pilots how precise we can be.
Folks wanting to claim the strike was a failure really don't know what they are talking about. We wanted to hit specific things, and did so.
The note about showing our ability to hit whatever targets we desire is actually a very good one, but I think most people were arguing that the sum total of the damage is not a tremendous blow to Assad's war machine that's going to make a critical difference in the conduct of the war. Assad lost an entire airfield along with many aircraft to an IS ground offensive some time ago (2014/2015), resulting in a far larger loss of actual warfighting capability than this recent strike by all accounts (and which has since been leveled by US led airstrikes post-facto), and found that lots of the aircraft weren't airworthy and hadn't been for some time. We don't know how functional those aircraft we hit were, how many pilots they have to run them, etc. Likewise, in Yugoslavia and Iraq (both times) there were an appreciable percentage of airstrikes that claimed destroyed aircraft or tanks or other such equipment that was either outright dummy equipment or nonfunctional in the first place, resulting in dramatically higher estimations of equipment losses than was actually incurred, meaning it's often very difficult to ascertain the true nature of the results of such strikes, particularly when both sides have reason to distort the truth in both directions for different audiences.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/04/11 00:08:25
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
If they were in those bunkers, it's likely they were functional. Almost immediately, I saw a news story pointing out five aircraft sitting in a grassy field lined up, and insinuated that the US strikes were FUBAR because we didn't hit those.
I'd bet my next pay check that those aircraft were not at all capable of getting into the air. We've spent the last few years closely watching the Syrian forces. We knew what aircraft where operational, and which ones weren't.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/04/11 00:09:52
Subject: US Ships launch 60 cruise missiles at Syrian air base
The strike (right or wrong) was NOT designed to destroy Assad's war fighting capability, or even to significantly hurt it.
It was designed to show "Hey, chuck chem around and we'll spank you and you won't be able to stop us or even defend against it. Here is a sample."
It also showed the Russians, if you want to keep Assad, you better keep him in check.
It sent several messages. As intended.
Really the strike did exactly what it was designed to do, and I've seen too many folks (not just here) claiming it was a failure. When we nailed every target but one (the missile that went down), did exactly the damage we wanted, it is hard for me to see their position as valid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
djones520 wrote: If they were in those bunkers, it's likely they were functional. Almost immediately, I saw a news story pointing out five aircraft sitting in a grassy field lined up, and insinuated that the US strikes were FUBAR because we didn't hit those.
I'd bet my next pay check that those aircraft were not at all capable of getting into the air. We've spent the last few years closely watching the Syrian forces. We knew what aircraft where operational, and which ones weren't.
Bingo.
I know one of the targeteers. The strike did exactly what they wanted. Each impact point was chosen for a reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 00:11:32
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.