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2017/04/16 10:08:53
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
For various WH40k media, what do you think of giving the original 30k Traitor Legionaries American accents, and giving the "modern" 40k Imperials British accents?
EDIT: To make this clear, the accents are based on time periods.
I want to see some linguistic gulf between the factions.
Of course, such media shouldn't have a Chaos Bad/Imperium Good bias, but should be more ambiguous and realistic as the old WH40K used to be.
We've heard both American and British accents, but its not clear who should sound like what. Its good to have some consistency.
The linguistic gulf is a means to show just how different Chaos and Emperor-worship are, and also highlight that they are from different eras.
The Tau have Japanese accents, though Xenos should be given some strange accent not based on any real accent.
As for the Eldar & Necrons, one can assume that they are even better at acquiring languages and accents due to their superior intellect. Presumably they speak a modern form of Gothic so as to converse with the wider Imperium.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/16 15:18:37
2017/04/16 10:55:45
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Very long answer, which probably raises more questions coming right up.
It's a big Wall of Text.
Spoiler:
Why would the traitors have a different accent to loyalists?
Looking at it from a 30k perspective, the Legions would all have had different accents, loyal or not. The Terran originals of the Legions would have had different accents from their different regions from Terra from which they were recruited from. Then the natives from the worlds the Legions recruited from would have added new and different accents. I'd either say the Legions all had different accents (so an Iron Warrior would have a different accent to a Raven Guard, who would have had a different accent to an Ultramarine, etc etc), or even more drastically, there would have been different accents amongst the Legions themselves (so the Ultramarines would have had Terran accents from the original Legionnaires, and a different accent perhaps for each recruiting world, Macragge, Sotha, Prandium, Talassar, Calth, etc etc).
Hell, we know that the original Death Guard, the Dusk Raiders, were recruited from Albion primarily, so if the accent remained, they would have had British accents, and were part of a Traitor Legion.
Did the Legions all start with an American or British accent? If the original was British, then did the Traitor Legions all switch to American? Why? What about later fallen traitors - Astral Claws, Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, Knights of Blood, etc etc - do they keep a British accent? Or do they switch accent because they don't serve the Emperor any more? Why would they switch accent?
If American was the default, then why would the Loyalists change accent? What about Loyalists in the Traitor legions?Did the accent naturally change, rather than to cause a Loyal/Traitor divide? If so, then wouldn't the Traitor accent also change? What about Guilliman, who has spend most of his life in stasis? Would he come out of his stasis speaking American, which is TRAITOR LANGUAGE!!1!!, or have a complete language change and speak British after spending millennia in stais?
Why are we limiting it to those two? Russian, Chinese, Indian, Australian, Scottish, African - did these accents all die out and get replaced with American and British? In the British Isles alone, there's plenty of different accents, and that's just a small series of islands. Why only these two, and why do only Loyalists have British?
Now, I support accent different and linguistic gulfs in 40k. However, I don't support the idea of "Traitors speak American, Loyalists speak British!" because it is, in a minor way, racist to believe that your allegiance and political views would determine your accent. Say we switch the accents - Loyalists speak with western American accents, Traitors speak with Middle-Eastern accents. See the problem?
Accents should exist. But they should not be as a result of your allegiance. Each Legion/Chapter should ideally have a different accent, from each world they come from. Yes, there will be a degree of homogenization, but there's nothing that makes a different accent heretical. Even if you do believe that the Chapters/Legions should have been indoctrinated to have the same accent, then why would that change if they changed sides? Guardsmen, at the very least, would have myriads of different accents.
Here's the problem. We need an accent roughly for every planet, at the very least (not accounting for the different accents we see in continents, countries, states, cities that we see on Earth now), and then accents for the separate races, which would most likely require the same amount of separate accents for all of the above. With these other races, we not only need their stilted alien accents attempting to grasp the language and syntax of a foreign race (something beyond our IRL current ability to imagine), but also their different alien languages and alien syntaxes. This is assuming that there is one language for the entire race, and not a variety of languages per planet, or even per continent or country (as we see on our planet now).
In an ideal and "realistic" setting, we would be seeing millions of different languages and accents. Accents and languages per race, per planet, per continent, per country, per city etc etc. Then we need to temper that with the reality that this is a fictional universe, written for a human audience. How does one create one entire alien language, unrestrained by the conventions of our own languages, let alone one for every race? We'd barely be able to recognise the speech of even normal humans, because of the variety of their accents and languages across an entire galaxy.
It would be impractical to have books or films wherein a character's speech is unintelligible. Is it possible, yes. Watch a new film in a language you don't understand. You can still understand it, to some degree. But will it be as engaging as a film which you can understand? Of course not. We need to understand that, whilst there may be a variety of different accents and languages, because of the medium with which we are observing the fiction, translation into our own language must occur in order for it to make sense.
Rippy wrote: You are looking too much in to this, to the point of almost being racist.
Yeah, how is this racist exactly?
I slightly address this in my wall of text, but from what I see, it could be construed as in "only traitors have X accent", which could bring up arguments of "All loyalists have American accents, and all traitors have Middle-Eastern accents", or "All loyalists have Russian accents, and all traitors have British ones". It either assumes that only people with British accents can be traitors, or anyone with a British accent is a traitor. Even if you step back and say that no faction is good or bad, there is still the hostility between the two.
Would you support the idea that anyone with a certain accent is an enemy?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/16 12:27:51
They/them
2017/04/16 12:46:09
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you.
2017/04/16 13:36:16
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Very long answer, which probably raises more questions coming right up.
It's a big Wall of Text.
Spoiler:
Why would the traitors have a different accent to loyalists?
Looking at it from a 30k perspective, the Legions would all have had different accents, loyal or not. The Terran originals of the Legions would have had different accents from their different regions from Terra from which they were recruited from. Then the natives from the worlds the Legions recruited from would have added new and different accents. I'd either say the Legions all had different accents (so an Iron Warrior would have a different accent to a Raven Guard, who would have had a different accent to an Ultramarine, etc etc), or even more drastically, there would have been different accents amongst the Legions themselves (so the Ultramarines would have had Terran accents from the original Legionnaires, and a different accent perhaps for each recruiting world, Macragge, Sotha, Prandium, Talassar, Calth, etc etc).
Hell, we know that the original Death Guard, the Dusk Raiders, were recruited from Albion primarily, so if the accent remained, they would have had British accents, and were part of a Traitor Legion.
Did the Legions all start with an American or British accent? If the original was British, then did the Traitor Legions all switch to American? Why? What about later fallen traitors - Astral Claws, Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, Knights of Blood, etc etc - do they keep a British accent? Or do they switch accent because they don't serve the Emperor any more? Why would they switch accent?
If American was the default, then why would the Loyalists change accent? What about Loyalists in the Traitor legions?Did the accent naturally change, rather than to cause a Loyal/Traitor divide? If so, then wouldn't the Traitor accent also change?
What about Guilliman, who has spend most of his life in stasis? Would he come out of his stasis speaking American, which is TRAITOR LANGUAGE!!1!!, or have a complete language change and speak British after spending millennia in stais?
Why are we limiting it to those two? Russian, Chinese, Indian, Australian, Scottish, African - did these accents all die out and get replaced with American and British? In the British Isles alone, there's plenty of different accents, and that's just a small series of islands. Why only these two, and why do only Loyalists have British?
Now, I support accent different and linguistic gulfs in 40k. However, I don't support the idea of "Traitors speak American, Loyalists speak British!" because it is, in a minor way, racist to believe that your allegiance and political views would determine your accent. Say we switch the accents - Loyalists speak with western American accents, Traitors speak with Middle-Eastern accents. See the problem?
Accents should exist. But they should not be as a result of your allegiance. Each Legion/Chapter should ideally have a different accent, from each world they come from. Yes, there will be a degree of homogenization, but there's nothing that makes a different accent heretical. Even if you do believe that the Chapters/Legions should have been indoctrinated to have the same accent, then why would that change if they changed sides?
Guardsmen, at the very least, would have myriads of different accents.
Here's the problem. We need an accent roughly for every planet, at the very least (not accounting for the different accents we see in continents, countries, states, cities that we see on Earth now), and then accents for the separate races, which would most likely require the same amount of separate accents for all of the above.
With these other races, we not only need their stilted alien accents attempting to grasp the language and syntax of a foreign race (something beyond our IRL current ability to imagine), but also their different alien languages and alien syntaxes. This is assuming that there is one language for the entire race, and not a variety of languages per planet, or even per continent or country (as we see on our planet now).
In an ideal and "realistic" setting, we would be seeing millions of different languages and accents. Accents and languages per race, per planet, per continent, per country, per city etc etc. Then we need to temper that with the reality that this is a fictional universe, written for a human audience. How does one create one entire alien language, unrestrained by the conventions of our own languages, let alone one for every race? We'd barely be able to recognise the speech of even normal humans, because of the variety of their accents and languages across an entire galaxy.
It would be impractical to have books or films wherein a character's speech is unintelligible. Is it possible, yes. Watch a new film in a language you don't understand. You can still understand it, to some degree. But will it be as engaging as a film which you can understand? Of course not. We need to understand that, whilst there may be a variety of different accents and languages, because of the medium with which we are observing the fiction, translation into our own language must occur in order for it to make sense.
Rippy wrote: You are looking too much in to this, to the point of almost being racist.
Yeah, how is this racist exactly?
I slightly address this in my wall of text, but from what I see, it could be construed as in "only traitors have X accent", which could bring up arguments of "All loyalists have American accents, and all traitors have Middle-Eastern accents", or "All loyalists have Russian accents, and all traitors have British ones". It either assumes that only people with British accents can be traitors, or anyone with a British accent is a traitor.
Even if you step back and say that no faction is good or bad, there is still the hostility between the two.
Would you support the idea that anyone with a certain accent is an enemy?
No, you're taking my ideas one step too far. This isn't about Albion, nor about the actual accents in 40K. It's just a representation, just like how English represents Low Gothic. The accent is a representation just like how he translation is a representation.
And its also about 40K media. Its for an English speaking audience mainly. In all 40K media released so far, there haven't been different English accent version dubs.
I guess its natural to use "native" English accents in this case. American/Canadian and English being the most "native", people who are culturally Anglo. Then you have Aussies and Kiwis, and Celts, who aren't Anglo, but have been so strongly exposed to Anglo culture.
I mean, it has to sound as fluent as possible.
Secondly, GW is an English company, so English accents for the Imperials is a homage to 40K's roots.
Thirdly, you can think that the Legionaries all initially learned a fairly standard American Gothic (with slight variations), which is just a representation of the true Low Gothic. So they maintained this ancient accent from that era.
But in the Imperium, accents changed. This is apparently what happened to the real American and English accents.
So Guilliman would speak with the "Traitor accent", because that was the accent of his time. No biggie. New traitors of the Imperium should continue speaking with the accents they were raised with, no reason for them to change to American.
It just signifies an era and the linguistic gulf highlights the irreconcilability between the Traitors and the descendants of the Imperium they forged and later betrayed.
I agree with Sgt Smudge in that one would come across millions of accents.
More to the point, however, is that surely loyalists and traitors from the same place would have (mostly) the same accent, so one would expect all accents on both sides.
Lastly, and not leastly, when would it ever make a difference to the game?
2017/04/16 14:33:19
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
stroller wrote: I agree with Sgt Smudge in that one would come across millions of accents.
More to the point, however, is that surely loyalists and traitors from the same place would have (mostly) the same accent, so one would expect all accents on both sides.
Lastly, and not leastly, when would it ever make a difference to the game?
I have addressed Sgt Smudge's comments.
Its the accents of eras though. Time varying accents.
To the game? To 40K media. Just a little suggestion to make 40K cinematics more interesting. A subtle change that highlights factions and history.
2017/04/16 14:38:39
Subject: Re:Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Very long answer, which probably raises more questions coming right up.
It's a big Wall of Text.
Spoiler:
Why would the traitors have a different accent to loyalists?
Looking at it from a 30k perspective, the Legions would all have had different accents, loyal or not. The Terran originals of the Legions would have had different accents from their different regions from Terra from which they were recruited from. Then the natives from the worlds the Legions recruited from would have added new and different accents. I'd either say the Legions all had different accents (so an Iron Warrior would have a different accent to a Raven Guard, who would have had a different accent to an Ultramarine, etc etc), or even more drastically, there would have been different accents amongst the Legions themselves (so the Ultramarines would have had Terran accents from the original Legionnaires, and a different accent perhaps for each recruiting world, Macragge, Sotha, Prandium, Talassar, Calth, etc etc).
Hell, we know that the original Death Guard, the Dusk Raiders, were recruited from Albion primarily, so if the accent remained, they would have had British accents, and were part of a Traitor Legion.
Did the Legions all start with an American or British accent? If the original was British, then did the Traitor Legions all switch to American? Why? What about later fallen traitors - Astral Claws, Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, Knights of Blood, etc etc - do they keep a British accent? Or do they switch accent because they don't serve the Emperor any more? Why would they switch accent?
If American was the default, then why would the Loyalists change accent? What about Loyalists in the Traitor legions?Did the accent naturally change, rather than to cause a Loyal/Traitor divide? If so, then wouldn't the Traitor accent also change?
What about Guilliman, who has spend most of his life in stasis? Would he come out of his stasis speaking American, which is TRAITOR LANGUAGE!!1!!, or have a complete language change and speak British after spending millennia in stais?
Why are we limiting it to those two? Russian, Chinese, Indian, Australian, Scottish, African - did these accents all die out and get replaced with American and British? In the British Isles alone, there's plenty of different accents, and that's just a small series of islands. Why only these two, and why do only Loyalists have British?
Now, I support accent different and linguistic gulfs in 40k. However, I don't support the idea of "Traitors speak American, Loyalists speak British!" because it is, in a minor way, racist to believe that your allegiance and political views would determine your accent. Say we switch the accents - Loyalists speak with western American accents, Traitors speak with Middle-Eastern accents. See the problem?
Accents should exist. But they should not be as a result of your allegiance. Each Legion/Chapter should ideally have a different accent, from each world they come from. Yes, there will be a degree of homogenization, but there's nothing that makes a different accent heretical. Even if you do believe that the Chapters/Legions should have been indoctrinated to have the same accent, then why would that change if they changed sides?
Guardsmen, at the very least, would have myriads of different accents.
Here's the problem. We need an accent roughly for every planet, at the very least (not accounting for the different accents we see in continents, countries, states, cities that we see on Earth now), and then accents for the separate races, which would most likely require the same amount of separate accents for all of the above.
With these other races, we not only need their stilted alien accents attempting to grasp the language and syntax of a foreign race (something beyond our IRL current ability to imagine), but also their different alien languages and alien syntaxes. This is assuming that there is one language for the entire race, and not a variety of languages per planet, or even per continent or country (as we see on our planet now).
In an ideal and "realistic" setting, we would be seeing millions of different languages and accents. Accents and languages per race, per planet, per continent, per country, per city etc etc. Then we need to temper that with the reality that this is a fictional universe, written for a human audience. How does one create one entire alien language, unrestrained by the conventions of our own languages, let alone one for every race? We'd barely be able to recognise the speech of even normal humans, because of the variety of their accents and languages across an entire galaxy.
It would be impractical to have books or films wherein a character's speech is unintelligible. Is it possible, yes. Watch a new film in a language you don't understand. You can still understand it, to some degree. But will it be as engaging as a film which you can understand? Of course not. We need to understand that, whilst there may be a variety of different accents and languages, because of the medium with which we are observing the fiction, translation into our own language must occur in order for it to make sense.
Wall of text over.
The gulf is due to different accents from 30K and 40K, just to make this clear.
2017/04/16 15:23:44
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Maximus Bitch wrote: No, you're taking my ideas one step too far. This isn't about Albion, nor about the actual accents in 40K. It's just a representation, just like how English represents Low Gothic. The accent is a representation just like how he translation is a representation.
So if you're not concerned about the actual accents, then why impose an artificial accent for them? Why should Chaos Marines have a different accent other than to show that they are Chaos Marines? Wouldn't it be obvious that they were Chaos Marines by their idealogy? Why is an artificial accent required to show a difference?
And its also about 40K media. Its for an English speaking audience mainly. In all 40K media released so far, there haven't been different English accent version dubs.
I guess its natural to use "native" English accents in this case. American/Canadian and English being the most "native", people who are culturally Anglo. Then you have Aussies and Kiwis, and Celts, who aren't Anglo, but have been so strongly exposed to Anglo culture.
I mean, it has to sound as fluent as possible.
Yes, this is true. However, I don't think that requires different accents for different people based on their religion.
Secondly, GW is an English company, so English accents for the Imperials is a homage to 40K's roots.
But why Imperials? Traitors were Imperials too once, hence them being Traitors. Why would they lose their accent because they changed religion? If we're using the argument of GW=British, then surely everyone would have British accents then?
Thirdly, you can think that the Legionaries all initially learned a fairly standard American Gothic (with slight variations), which is just a representation of the true Low Gothic. So they maintained this ancient accent from that era.
But in the Imperium, accents changed. This is apparently what happened to the real American and English accents.
Yes, but why only in the Imperium did the accents change? Chaos spent just as much time away from the Imperium, so it's natural that their accent should change too, no?
Surely if American was the standard, then it would be the Imperium that held onto that standard more than Chaos would.
What source is there that American Gothic is the closest to Low Gothic? I don't believe that's been mentioned anywhere.
So Guilliman would speak with the "Traitor accent", because that was the accent of his time. No biggie. New traitors of the Imperium should continue speaking with the accents they were raised with, no reason for them to change to American.
But you've just said that the accent is artificial for the sake of making a language difference between loyalists and traitors. Surely then, if the accent is for symbolising loyalist and traitor as you say, Guilliman is now a traitor?
It just signifies an era and the linguistic gulf highlights the irreconcilability between the Traitors and the descendants of the Imperium they forged and later betrayed.
But what's to say the Imperials change their accent? Both factions have been around for 10k years, so why have only the Loyalists changed - especially when we're talking about the notoriously stagnant and dogmatic Imperium? Why would their language change but Chaos, who have been exposed to new ideas and suchlike, stay the same?
Also, even if the loyalists change accent, then surely Chaos would too? They've both been separated for 10k years. Yes, you can point out that "Chaos were in the warp = timeywimey shenanigans", but not all chaos marines went into the warp, and time in the warp can be elongated as well as reduced.
Generally, I don't think that "accents to show allegiance" is good. Why would accents be the indicator of what religion you are? It wouldn't make sense that the Red Corsairs, after serving the Imperium with their presumably British accent as the Astral Claws, then have an accent change when they devote themselves to Chaos. Or did they have the American accent already? In which case, they were predestined to turn to Chaos, thereby meaning that they lacked all free will in the matter?
I would say that, if we are to assume that we dumb it down for the reader and have everyone speaking English, then accent shouldn't matter. Anyone, if you have a British, American, Indian, Chinese, Spanish, African accent, can fall to Chaos. That's what makes it's insidious nature so powerful. ANYONE could turn to Chaos. If you make an accent gap and have only two accents on either side (Loyalist = British, Traitor = American), then they are no longer one whole people who can be subverted within. Instead, we have two clearly different groups, the British and the American, and a sense of connection is lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maximus Bitch wrote:
stroller wrote: I agree with Sgt Smudge in that one would come across millions of accents.
More to the point, however, is that surely loyalists and traitors from the same place would have (mostly) the same accent, so one would expect all accents on both sides.
Lastly, and not leastly, when would it ever make a difference to the game?
I have addressed Sgt Smudge's comments.
Its the accents of eras though. Time varying accents.
To the game? To 40K media. Just a little suggestion to make 40K cinematics more interesting. A subtle change that highlights factions and history.
Yes, but it makes no sense.
Why has the 30k accent persisted in the Traitors and not stayed as the accent of choice in the actual empire that used it? Why has the 30k accent not deteriorated for the Traitors? They have endured just as long as the Loyalists have.
What about newly fallen Traitors, a la Red Corsairs, Crimson Sabres - them changing accent makes no sense due to time. However, if they don't have an accent, then surely that contradicts your whole point of "showing a difference" between Loyalists and Traitors?
What about factions in the middle - Soul Drinkers or Cypher's Fallen? They serve neither, so which accent do they have?
Yes, time would affect one's accent. However, both the loyalists and traitors endure time, so should both have degraded accents. This brings back to why we should even bother with different accents when we're already "dumbing it down" for the listener. I don't think we need a accent change to show that a character is a traitor, not to mention that it would provoke ideas that accent determines one's loyalty.
Tamwulf wrote:Special Snowflakes.
Hey, I'm not saying I personally endorse it, but it's a possible viewpoint, which could easily be a point of concern.
Let me ask you, would you find it okay if all Good Guys in a setting had American accents, and all the Bad Guys had Russian accents, despite neither accent being present in that setting canonically?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/16 15:34:25
They/them
2017/04/16 16:15:10
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Maximus Bitch wrote: No, you're taking my ideas one step too far. This isn't about Albion, nor about the actual accents in 40K. It's just a representation, just like how English represents Low Gothic. The accent is a representation just like how he translation is a representation.
So if you're not concerned about the actual accents, then why impose an artificial accent for them? Why should Chaos Marines have a different accent other than to show that they are Chaos Marines? Wouldn't it be obvious that they were Chaos Marines by their idealogy? Why is an artificial accent required to show a difference?
Because the actual accents are in Gothic? These are just representative accents.
What's wrong with differentiation? CSM are spiky. They have longer backpack nozzle pipes!
And its also about 40K media. Its for an English speaking audience mainly. In all 40K media released so far, there haven't been different English accent version dubs.
I guess its natural to use "native" English accents in this case. American/Canadian and English being the most "native", people who are culturally Anglo. Then you have Aussies and Kiwis, and Celts, who aren't Anglo, but have been so strongly exposed to Anglo culture.
I mean, it has to sound as fluent as possible.
Yes, this is true. However, I don't think that requires different accents for different people based on their religion.
What's the big deal? Fictional religions anyway.
Secondly, GW is an English company, so English accents for the Imperials is a homage to 40K's roots.
But why Imperials? Traitors were Imperials too once, hence them being Traitors. Why would they lose their accent because they changed religion? If we're using the argument of GW=British, then surely everyone would have British accents then?
Because they're traitorous American Patriots hahaha!
Why make everything the same though? Add a little flavour! But not too many accents, lest it become too distracting.
In my OP, I did mention the Orks, Eldar and Necrons nailing the English accents. For Eldar and Necrons because most of humanity uses the new accent.
Thirdly, you can think that the Legionaries all initially learned a fairly standard American Gothic (with slight variations), which is just a representation of the true Low Gothic. So they maintained this ancient accent from that era.
But in the Imperium, accents changed. This is apparently what happened to the real American and English accents.
Yes, but why only in the Imperium did the accents change? Chaos spent just as much time away from the Imperium, so it's natural that their accent should change too, no?
Surely if American was the standard, then it would be the Imperium that held onto that standard more than Chaos would.
What source is there that American Gothic is the closest to Low Gothic? I don't believe that's been mentioned anywhere.
CSM were stuck in a time warp in the EoT.
If the Imperium's accents changed, the CSM wouldn't have any reason to get rid of their old accents and change their way of speaking. Note that American accents have apparently changed less, although America is not in a Warp hole.
Also, American Gothic is something I came up with.
So Guilliman would speak with the "Traitor accent", because that was the accent of his time. No biggie. New traitors of the Imperium should continue speaking with the accents they were raised with, no reason for them to change to American.
But you've just said that the accent is artificial for the sake of making a language difference between loyalists and traitors. Surely then, if the accent is for symbolising loyalist and traitor as you say, Guilliman is now a traitor?
Guilliman is one of the few surviving loyalists from that era. For him, it represents a shared history with his old, original traitor foes.
It just signifies an era and the linguistic gulf highlights the irreconcilability between the Traitors and the descendants of the Imperium they forged and later betrayed.
But what's to say the Imperials change their accent? Both factions have been around for 10k years, so why have only the Loyalists changed - especially when we're talking about the notoriously stagnant and dogmatic Imperium? Why would their language change but Chaos, who have been exposed to new ideas and suchlike, stay the same?
Also, even if the loyalists change accent, then surely Chaos would too? They've both been separated for 10k years. Yes, you can point out that "Chaos were in the warp = timeywimey shenanigans", but not all chaos marines went into the warp, and time in the warp can be elongated as well as reduced.
Not like CSM met a bunch of rasta demons and decided to speak all Jah-may-kan mon.
Also, no reason for old vets of the HH to change their accents, even if they were out of the EoT. Unless they wanted to sound hip and cool and not like an old fogey haha.
Lastly, the fluff is quite clear about the original CSM being pretty fresh.
Generally, I don't think that "accents to show allegiance" is good. Why would accents be the indicator of what religion you are? It wouldn't make sense that the Red Corsairs, after serving the Imperium with their presumably British accent as the Astral Claws, then have an accent change when they devote themselves to Chaos. Or did they have the American accent already? In which case, they were predestined to turn to Chaos, thereby meaning that they lacked all free will in the matter?
As I said, differentiation, to create that gulf.
And no, its not that convoluted. I already said that the Red Corsairs shouldn't change their accents. They are the new traitors after all. They represent the threat of Chaos seducing the current "generation".
Red Corsairs betrayed their side. The accents aren't meant to be 100% absolute, and that's even cooler. We can now differentiate more. Old Loyalist, Original Traitor, Modern Imperial, New Traitor on the block.
I would say that, if we are to assume that we dumb it down for the reader and have everyone speaking English, then accent shouldn't matter. Anyone, if you have a British, American, Indian, Chinese, Spanish, African accent, can fall to Chaos. That's what makes it's insidious nature so powerful. ANYONE could turn to Chaos. If you make an accent gap and have only two accents on either side (Loyalist = British, Traitor = American), then they are no longer one whole people who can be subverted within. Instead, we have two clearly different groups, the British and the American, and a sense of connection is lost.
As mentioned above, not absolute nor exclusive.
2017/04/16 17:17:11
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid. An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language). In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans. (Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have both imperial and traitor characters use a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same accent. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/16 17:18:35
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/04/16 17:22:12
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Iron_Captain wrote: Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid. An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language). In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans. (Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same faction. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
This. An accent is not your political viewpoint. As it stands in your OP, you state that: "The linguistic gulf is a means to show just how different Chaos and Emperor-worship are, and also highlight that they are from different eras."
I don't see how your choice of worship determines one's accent, or who you can worship depending on your accent, and your era explanation doesn't hold up. If it's meant to show passage of time, both Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines have both passed by over 10k years. Yes, the Warp can make time pass faster, but also pass by slower. It's a double edged sword. I still don't understand why Chaos, who outright detest the Imperials, would still use their accent but the Imperials (who are known to be regressive, static, and opposed to change) have changed their accent.
I don't think the audience requires a different accent for "good guys" and "bad guys" - if they have the same accent, it even makes it more clear that they are two sides of the same coin.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/16 17:23:35
They/them
2017/04/16 17:46:43
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
I would imagine, considering they are all recruited from different worlds and different time periods, the odds of any one "faction" having a homogeneous accent is like saying everyone who speaks english has one accent.
Seriously, I doubt the the accent of Cthonia, Nocturna, Olympia, Chemos, Prospero and so forth would all be the same just because they were from the same era. In fact, since we're talking on a galactic scale, realistically there should be accent variations within the legions/chapters, if not individual squads. American English is very different from British English, let alone Canadian English or even Australian English (the latter two have less of a difference than the former, but still present). Even within American English, there's Texan, Minnesota, Brooklyn, and so forth. And we're just talking about a handful of countries on one planet here.
The Primarchs might have held better accents and talked more fluently with each other, but I'm willing to bet that even down at a squad level the Marines communicating would be the equivalent of a chinese and indian person both trying to speak french at each other.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/16 17:56:25
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would imagine, considering they are all recruited from different worlds and different time periods, the odds of any one "faction" having a homogeneous accent is like saying everyone who speaks english has one accent.
Seriously, I doubt the the accent of Cthonia, Nocturna, Olympia, Chemos, Prospero and so forth would all be the same just because they were from the same era. In fact, since we're talking on a galactic scale, realistically there should be accent variations within the legions/chapters, if not individual squads. American English is very different from British English, let alone Canadian English or even Australian English (the latter two have less of a difference than the former, but still present). Even within American English, there's Texan, Minnesota, Brooklyn, and so forth. And we're just talking about a handful of countries on one planet here.
The Primarchs might have held better accents and talked more fluently with each other, but I'm willing to bet that even down at a squad level the Marines communicating would be the equivalent of a chinese and indian person both trying to speak french at each other.
I suggested this, but "No, you're taking my ideas one step too far. This isn't about Albion, nor about the actual accents in 40K. It's just a representation, just like how English represents Low Gothic. The accent is a representation just like how he translation is a representation."
They/them
2017/04/16 19:00:20
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
If you were to apply a difference between 30K and 40K speech, I think it would be far more appropriate to do it as Shakespearean English vs. Modern English, rather than regional accents.
I don't think it would be inappropriate, however, if some of the legions had borrowed words from cultures the various legions were based off - for example, Space Wolves and Nordic words. The Cult of Mars and leetspeak, perhaps.
It never ends well
2017/04/16 20:00:20
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Stormonu wrote: If you were to apply a difference between 30K and 40K speech, I think it would be far more appropriate to do it as Shakespearean English vs. Modern English, rather than regional accents.
I don't think it would be inappropriate, however, if some of the legions had borrowed words from cultures the various legions were based off - for example, Space Wolves and Nordic words. The Cult of Mars and leetspeak, perhaps.
Dark Lord Azamelech: Imperial knave! Verily dost thou not stand a chance before mine might!
Archmagos Sevarian: 1'm 1337 h4x0r. I pwn u.
...
Dark Lord Azamelech: Forsooth! Thou hast defeated me in a manner most foul!
Archmagos Sevarian: QQ n00b. 1 R t3h pWnz0rZ!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/16 20:12:12
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/04/17 02:41:28
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Iron_Captain wrote: Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid.
An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language).
In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans.
(Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have both imperial and traitor characters use a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same accent. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
The American accent is just representative (see above). Doesn't necessarily have to conform exactly to IRL history. Also, note that American accents have generally changed less, while in the UK, RP was invented after the American Revolution.
Also, I'm intending this for contemporary audiences, so why not use contemporary accents?
Interestingly, old-fashioned English might work for 40K, but it risks sounding too cheesy. Again, for contemporary audiences.
I was never trying to represent the linguistic diversity. I was trying to create a linguistic gulf.
Lastly, do you want characters to randomly have American and British accents?
Stormonu wrote: If you were to apply a difference between 30K and 40K speech, I think it would be far more appropriate to do it as Shakespearean English vs. Modern English, rather than regional accents.
I don't think it would be inappropriate, however, if some of the legions had borrowed words from cultures the various legions were based off - for example, Space Wolves and Nordic words. The Cult of Mars and leetspeak, perhaps.
Dark Lord Azamelech: Imperial knave! Verily dost thou not stand a chance before mine might!
Archmagos Sevarian: 1'm 1337 h4x0r. I pwn u.
...
Dark Lord Azamelech: Forsooth! Thou hast defeated me in a manner most foul!
Archmagos Sevarian: QQ n00b. 1 R t3h pWnz0rZ!
that's pretty funny. AdMech are supposed to be the smartest guys in the Imperium though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: The Cult Of Mars speaks entirely in 56k modem noises. Or at least that's my headcanon. Leetspeak can be... appropriated.
Stormonu wrote: If you were to apply a difference between 30K and 40K speech, I think it would be far more appropriate to do it as Shakespearean English vs. Modern English, rather than regional accents.
I don't think it would be inappropriate, however, if some of the legions had borrowed words from cultures the various legions were based off - for example, Space Wolves and Nordic words. The Cult of Mars and leetspeak, perhaps.
As I mentioned to the others, my idea is for the accents to simply be representative.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would imagine, considering they are all recruited from different worlds and different time periods, the odds of any one "faction" having a homogeneous accent is like saying everyone who speaks english has one accent.
Seriously, I doubt the the accent of Cthonia, Nocturna, Olympia, Chemos, Prospero and so forth would all be the same just because they were from the same era. In fact, since we're talking on a galactic scale, realistically there should be accent variations within the legions/chapters, if not individual squads. American English is very different from British English, let alone Canadian English or even Australian English (the latter two have less of a difference than the former, but still present). Even within American English, there's Texan, Minnesota, Brooklyn, and so forth. And we're just talking about a handful of countries on one planet here.
The Primarchs might have held better accents and talked more fluently with each other, but I'm willing to bet that even down at a squad level the Marines communicating would be the equivalent of a chinese and indian person both trying to speak french at each other.
Some fluff suggests that they all spoke some local variation of ''Old Gothic'', the common language used before the Age of Strife. It's reasonable to assume that they all learned some form of standard American/Terran gothic.
Of course I don't expect the "real" accents to be uniform, but, as mentioned to others, this is for the consumption of contemporary audiences. Its not impossible to have different American accents too, but that's if you want Texans, Minnesotans and New Yorkers in WH40K. Do you?
Depends on how cheesy you want it to be. I think its so cheesily bad that we have Space Mongols, Space Vikings, Space Russians, Space Wehrmacht, Space Arabs etc.
Not to mention Space Greeks and Romans.
I've always liked depictions of 40K with motifs from real world culture, but with its own unique touch. Not just give them some spaceships and fancy guns and dump them in space.
Kind of like how the US Congress is modelled after Roman themes, but they're not like Romans in the New World. Less cheesy that way.
So its not impossible to have Space Texans and Space New Yorkers, but its all a matter of execution.
Iron_Captain wrote: Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid.
An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language).
In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans.
(Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same faction. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
This. An accent is not your political viewpoint. As it stands in your OP, you state that:
"The linguistic gulf is a means to show just how different Chaos and Emperor-worship are, and also highlight that they are from different eras."
I don't see how your choice of worship determines one's accent, or who you can worship depending on your accent, and your era explanation doesn't hold up. If it's meant to show passage of time, both Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines have both passed by over 10k years. Yes, the Warp can make time pass faster, but also pass by slower. It's a double edged sword. I still don't understand why Chaos, who outright detest the Imperials, would still use their accent but the Imperials (who are known to be regressive, static, and opposed to change) have changed their accent.
I don't think the audience requires a different accent for "good guys" and "bad guys" - if they have the same accent, it even makes it more clear that they are two sides of the same coin.
That was his first post here and he misunderstood some parts.
Here's from a codex:
The events of the Heresy are nothing more than myth and legends to the people of the Imperium in the late 41st Millennium, but for many of the Chaos Space Marines who dwell within the Eye of Terror where the flow of time moves slower, the terrible passions of that era are still very much alive.
Think about how RP caught on in stuffy stiff-lipped Britain. The posh folks wanted to differentiate themselves from the plebs. They wanted to create a linguistic gulf.
Also, accents in the Imperium evolved with each new generation. Youngsters.
CSM are still the exact the same dudes. And I don't think they hate the Emperor so much that they would change the way they speak. And its an accent(s) that probably predates the Great Crusade. Its not like Empy invented a brand new accent. He wasn't really posh, despite being Emperor.
If you rebelled against your government, would you change your own accent too?
And no, its not that convoluted. I already said that the Red Corsairs shouldn't change their accents. They are the new traitors after all. They represent the threat of Chaos seducing the current "generation".
Red Corsairs betrayed their side. The accents aren't meant to be 100% absolute, and that's even cooler. We can now differentiate more. Old Loyalist, Original Traitor, Modern Imperial, New Traitor on the block.
As mentioned above, not absolute nor exclusive.
Two sides of the same coin? That's what the New Traitors on the block are for. And I did say that Guilliman should have that ''old'' accent.
As I asked Iron Captain, you'd want characters to randomly have certain accents?
I don't think the audience requires a different accent for "good guys" and "bad guys"
Of course, such media shouldn't have a Chaos Bad/Imperium Good bias, but should be more ambiguous and realistic as the old WH40K used to be.
The WH40K characters need only possess the accents. They're not supposed to follow real-world stereotypes. They have their own guiding ideologies after all.
Its not like CSM are gonna behave like American stereotypes just because they possess American accents. I hope whoever who produces 40K media doesn't do that.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/17 03:32:12
2017/04/17 03:55:17
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
The problem with applying "realism" to any concepts in a fictional universe is that you either go all the way or not, and with something as vast as 40k, it's generally not a good idea to go all the way, otherwise you start causing a bunch of fridge logic (like the many people of this thread has pointed out).
Also I think you got accents confused with the evolution of languages; someone speaking Shakespearean english would not sound that different from a person natively born in Shakespearean times in the same region. The reason Ye Olde Englishe sounds so weird is because some words fall out of use, change meaning, or are used in a different context. Back then if I said I had a "gay old time" with my little brother, people would probably think that's adorable, as it just meant I took him out and we had fun. Now if I say that, every adult within hearing distance is probably going to tackle me and contact the police. It won't matter if I said it in a british accent or an american accent, they will still tackle me to the ground because the common usage (and thus implications) of those words has changed.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/17 09:24:29
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The problem with applying "realism" to any concepts in a fictional universe is that you either go all the way or not, and with something as vast as 40k, it's generally not a good idea to go all the way, otherwise you start causing a bunch of fridge logic (like the many people of this thread has pointed out).
Also I think you got accents confused with the evolution of languages; someone speaking Shakespearean english would not sound that different from a person natively born in Shakespearean times in the same region. The reason Ye Olde Englishe sounds so weird is because some words fall out of use, change meaning, or are used in a different context. Back then if I said I had a "gay old time" with my little brother, people would probably think that's adorable, as it just meant I took him out and we had fun. Now if I say that, every adult within hearing distance is probably going to tackle me and contact the police. It won't matter if I said it in a british accent or an american accent, they will still tackle me to the ground because the common usage (and thus implications) of those words has changed.
I just presented a means by which there could be accent differentiation. I think its pretty cool. No cross atlantic sci-fi setting has done that yet. Star Wars maybe, but not as specifically.
If we use too much ye olde slang it might be too difficult for contemporary audiences. Though I do like the idea of the "old" accent speakers and the new speakers having different slang words for things in the WH40K universe.
Also, we can assume that the Imperium invented its own form of RP which gradually spread to most of society.
2017/04/17 12:01:42
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
Iron_Captain wrote: Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid.
An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language).
In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans.
(Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have both imperial and traitor characters use a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same accent. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
The American accent is just representative (see above). Doesn't necessarily have to conform exactly to IRL history. Also, note that American accents have generally changed less, while in the UK, RP was invented after the American Revolution.
Yes, but American was derived from British. RP isn't the only or even main accent in the UK. You're pointing at one accent that was created after the American accent, and saying it validates an entire galactic empire (renowned for it's inability to change and adapt much, and reveres the "good old days", as they were) changing their entire accent?
Also, I'm intending this for contemporary audiences, so why not use contemporary accents?
Australian, Indian, Chinese, Spanish, etc etc are all "contemporary" accents. Why only those two? Why don't we have Middle Eastern accents for the Chaos Marines? Russian accents for the Imperium? Hell, Russian accents would make lots of sense for the Valhallans, as would German for the Death Korps and Armageddon Steel Legion. If that's the case, then surely British isn't the "standard" language in the Imperium, and it would make sense that there would be a variety of accents amongst both traitors AND loyalists.
Interestingly, old-fashioned English might work for 40K, but it risks sounding too cheesy. Again, for contemporary audiences.
I think a contemporary audience can understand that there would be a variety of accents, and not need arbitrary "American vs British" accent rules to determine the difference between loyalists and traitors.
I was never trying to represent the linguistic diversity. I was trying to create a linguistic gulf.
Yes, but it makes no sense to have a gulf. You're making a gulf where there doesn't actually need to be one if you're ignoring the actual diversity.
And isn't it better to show that these are two sides of the same coin, and have them both with the same accent?
Lastly, do you want characters to randomly have American and British accents?
Yes.
Or, more rather, I don't want a character's accent hinging on their religion, and rather on the environment of their upbringing, if they are to be cherrypicked on their accent.
Frankly, it makes just as much sense to have variety of accent between two Space Marine Chapters as it is to have variety between a Space Marine and Chaos Marine. We're talking whole planets here, star systems apart - that would have a bigger effect on accent than anything else. If you can suspend disbelief that two Astartes or entirely different creed and planet can speak with the same accent, why not a Dark Angel and a member of the Fallen, who both come from the same world?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would imagine, considering they are all recruited from different worlds and different time periods, the odds of any one "faction" having a homogeneous accent is like saying everyone who speaks english has one accent.
Seriously, I doubt the the accent of Cthonia, Nocturna, Olympia, Chemos, Prospero and so forth would all be the same just because they were from the same era. In fact, since we're talking on a galactic scale, realistically there should be accent variations within the legions/chapters, if not individual squads. American English is very different from British English, let alone Canadian English or even Australian English (the latter two have less of a difference than the former, but still present). Even within American English, there's Texan, Minnesota, Brooklyn, and so forth. And we're just talking about a handful of countries on one planet here.
The Primarchs might have held better accents and talked more fluently with each other, but I'm willing to bet that even down at a squad level the Marines communicating would be the equivalent of a chinese and indian person both trying to speak french at each other.
Some fluff suggests that they all spoke some local variation of ''Old Gothic'', the common language used before the Age of Strife. It's reasonable to assume that they all learned some form of standard American/Terran gothic.
Again - American Gothic doesn't exist.
Language and accent are not the same thing regardless. I can have a conversation with a Liverpudlian, and we're speaking the same language, but our accents are very different. Yes, there is a standard Gothic throughout the Imperium - Low and High Gothic. However, that doesn't mean that its the only language, and that everyone's accent of Low and High Gothic would be the same. For example, a Spaniard and an Indian. Both might speak English, but they will have different accents, regardless of English being "standardised".
Of course I don't expect the "real" accents to be uniform, but, as mentioned to others, this is for the consumption of contemporary audiences. Its not impossible to have different American accents too, but that's if you want Texans, Minnesotans and New Yorkers in WH40K. Do you?
If you're suggesting that having different accents would make them "Texans, Minnesotans and New Yorkers", then surely giving all Imperials a British accent makes them all British, no?
You say one moment that the accent is purely for proxy purposes, yet then say that if I used a certain accent, it means they become a Texan?
Depends on how cheesy you want it to be. I think its so cheesily bad that we have Space Mongols, Space Vikings, Space Russians, Space Wehrmacht, Space Arabs etc.
Not to mention Space Greeks and Romans.
I've always liked depictions of 40K with motifs from real world culture, but with its own unique touch. Not just give them some spaceships and fancy guns and dump them in space.
Kind of like how the US Congress is modelled after Roman themes, but they're not like Romans in the New World. Less cheesy that way.
So its not impossible to have Space Texans and Space New Yorkers, but its all a matter of execution.
I haven't advocated that we'd have stereotypes. I'm not after cheese. I'm after realistic language gulfs, if any are going to exist. The most realistic language gulf would be between worlds and cultures. Yet this is ignored.
Iron_Captain wrote: Sorry, but I think this idea is stupid.
An accent depends on the place where you were born (if it is an accent in your native language) or your native language (if it is an accent in your secondary language).
In no case does accent depend on political allegiance. Since all traitors are former imperials, they all come from the same place and therefore they should all have the same accent. If you want to represent the fact that some characters come from a time far in the past, then have them speak an archaic form of English. It makes no sense to make them sound like Americans.
(Unless you'd want to make a point about the US being evil or something)
If you want to somehow use accents to represent the linguistic diversity of the Imperium, then you should have a wide variety of accents, from all kinds of British and Commonwealth to American to foreign-language accents like French, German, Russian etc. Don't simply have one faction all have the same faction. This is silly, unrealistic and can create unfortunate implications.
This. An accent is not your political viewpoint. As it stands in your OP, you state that:
"The linguistic gulf is a means to show just how different Chaos and Emperor-worship are, and also highlight that they are from different eras."
I don't see how your choice of worship determines one's accent, or who you can worship depending on your accent, and your era explanation doesn't hold up. If it's meant to show passage of time, both Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines have both passed by over 10k years. Yes, the Warp can make time pass faster, but also pass by slower. It's a double edged sword. I still don't understand why Chaos, who outright detest the Imperials, would still use their accent but the Imperials (who are known to be regressive, static, and opposed to change) have changed their accent.
I don't think the audience requires a different accent for "good guys" and "bad guys" - if they have the same accent, it even makes it more clear that they are two sides of the same coin.
That was his first post here and he misunderstood some parts.
Here's from a codex:
The events of the Heresy are nothing more than myth and legends to the people of the Imperium in the late 41st Millennium, but for many of the Chaos Space Marines who dwell within the Eye of Terror where the flow of time moves slower, the terrible passions of that era are still very much alive.
However, time can also move faster in the Warp. Emphasis on "for many" - not for all. So realistically, we'd have a variety of different accents, because some CSM spend little time in the Warp, others spend lots of time in the Warp, and anywhere in between. And that's ignoring all the different accents between Legions, Warbands, etc etc...
Think about how RP caught on in stuffy stiff-lipped Britain. The posh folks wanted to differentiate themselves from the plebs. They wanted to create a linguistic gulf.
Yes. Unfortunately, it's still nowhere near the main accent in Britain. So the example of an accent taking over completely isn't quite flawless there. Not to mention, it already exists in 40k. That's called High and Low Gothic.
Also, accents in the Imperium evolved with each new generation. Youngsters.
CSM are still the exact the same dudes. And I don't think they hate the Emperor so much that they would change the way they speak. And its an accent(s) that probably predates the Great Crusade. Its not like Empy invented a brand new accent. He wasn't really posh, despite being Emperor.
If you rebelled against your government, would you change your own accent too?
Low and High Gothic existed before the Great Crusade. You're also making a lot of assumptions, in suggesting that there even has been a linguistic shift in the Imperium. Remember that this is an empire which has practically ceased to develop and adapt - I think it would make a lot of sense that such an empire preserves its language and accent religiously.
And no, its not that convoluted. I already said that the Red Corsairs shouldn't change their accents. They are the new traitors after all. They represent the threat of Chaos seducing the current "generation".
Red Corsairs betrayed their side. The accents aren't meant to be 100% absolute, and that's even cooler. We can now differentiate more. Old Loyalist, Original Traitor, Modern Imperial, New Traitor on the block.
As mentioned above, not absolute nor exclusive.
But why would the Imperial accent even change, and the traitors didn't? Why are we ignoring the accents of different cultures within the Imperium itself? If it's okay to ignore their linguistic gulf, why is the linguistic gulf of the loyalists and traitors so paramount?
Two sides of the same coin? That's what the New Traitors on the block are for. And I did say that Guilliman should have that ''old'' accent.
But the Old Traitors are also Space Marines. They're no less of a Space Marine than the Loyalists. There's loyalists and traitors, regardless of your accent. To create that linguistic gulf over allegiance and ignore the gulf of cultures and planets within the Imperium itself isn't very consistent.
As I asked Iron Captain, you'd want characters to randomly have certain accents?
And I answer yes. I'd rather either have accents be accurate and consistent (so every different planet having a different accent ideally, to show "the linguistic gulf"), or not care about accents at all.
I don't think the audience requires a different accent for "good guys" and "bad guys"
Of course, such media shouldn't have a Chaos Bad/Imperium Good bias, but should be more ambiguous and realistic as the old WH40K used to be.
Each faction will be "good" to one person and "bad" to another. Take A Song of Ice and Fire. I don't think there's a single entirely "good" faction in there, yet people have their favourites and will support them. Even in 40k, I still admit that there's no "good" faction. They're all bad. But there's shades of grey in this, and the terrible nature of humanity (and it is still terrible, despite all the latest lore) raises the question of "is this terrible existence better than being snuffed out and made food for immortal and unknowable gods?".
Additional side note - ambiguous doesn't equal realistic. Unless you mean to say that it's unrealistic to call a serial murderer a bad person, because that's not ambiguous?
The WH40K characters need only possess the accents. They're not supposed to follow real-world stereotypes. They have their own guiding ideologies after all.
Its not like CSM are gonna behave like American stereotypes just because they possess American accents. I hope whoever who produces 40K media doesn't do that.
I haven't said anywhere about stereotypes. But I will point out that the Star Wars prequels got a lot of backlash for making the Trade Federation have an exaggerated Asian accent.
Do you think it's okay to have a radical religious extremist group in a fictional setting, then just happen to give them all Middle Eastern accents, but say "it's not based on reality, I promise"? You're still choosing that particular accent, and defining them on it, where you could be defining other language gulf across the whole setting instead?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The problem with applying "realism" to any concepts in a fictional universe is that you either go all the way or not, and with something as vast as 40k, it's generally not a good idea to go all the way, otherwise you start causing a bunch of fridge logic (like the many people of this thread has pointed out).
Also I think you got accents confused with the evolution of languages; someone speaking Shakespearean english would not sound that different from a person natively born in Shakespearean times in the same region. The reason Ye Olde Englishe sounds so weird is because some words fall out of use, change meaning, or are used in a different context. Back then if I said I had a "gay old time" with my little brother, people would probably think that's adorable, as it just meant I took him out and we had fun. Now if I say that, every adult within hearing distance is probably going to tackle me and contact the police. It won't matter if I said it in a british accent or an american accent, they will still tackle me to the ground because the common usage (and thus implications) of those words has changed.
I just presented a means by which there could be accent differentiation. I think its pretty cool. No cross atlantic sci-fi setting has done that yet. Star Wars maybe, but not as specifically.
Yes, but you're missing out the main form of accent differentiation. Why would all the Chaos Marines speak with the same accent? Barbarus and Terra are very different places, yet you assume they'd both have American accents?
If we use too much ye olde slang it might be too difficult for contemporary audiences. Though I do like the idea of the "old" accent speakers and the new speakers having different slang words for things in the WH40K universe.
Also, we can assume that the Imperium invented its own form of RP which gradually spread to most of society.
RP isn't widely spoken, even in England. It's only spoken by a small percentage of people.
The Imperium even has it's own form of RP - it's called High and Low Gothic, and it existed even before the Horus Heresy. That means it's just as likely for the Imperium to have the same accent as the traitors, even after all this time. This isn't even taking into account that the Imperium REALLY doesn't do change. We have no evidence to suggest an accent shift has even occurred.
The biggest language gulf, which you choose not to address because of "representation" is the accents between planets.
They/them
2017/04/17 12:29:01
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
I'm gonna address all your concerns and please don't repeat.
And those social dynamics don't even bother you. You're just bothered that different factions could've different accents.
Its a cool idea if the characters are portrayed well and not one-dimensionally with a childish good vs evil narrative.
I'm sounding like a broken record because you're not addressing my points. Why avoid focusing on the biggest form of accent difference in the galaxy? How has the Imperial accent changed, but Chaos has not? The Imperium is notoriously stagnant, and Chaos have just as much chance to change accent. Why do you ignore the more likely cause of accent difference across the galaxy, and focus purely on one's allegiance?
Changing one's accent doesn't mean a character is portrayed well. I don't see how giving one faction X accent and another faction Y accent makes a difference to their characterisation. I am all for characters being portrayed well. I don't see how an accent (which I might add, you're only adding to show that they're different in religion) would affect that.
You say social dynamics, but I don't see how my choice of god affects my accent. What I see by accent difference is location and geography - how a Nostraman would speak compared to a Calibanite. You don't address that in your proposal of accents, and deal with people's alliances and treat the Imperium and forces of Chaos as two single entities. They are not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 12:48:57
They/them
2017/04/17 13:30:59
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
I'm gonna address all your concerns and please don't repeat.
And those social dynamics don't even bother you. You're just bothered that different factions could've different accents.
Its a cool idea if the characters are portrayed well and not one-dimensionally with a childish good vs evil narrative.
I'm sounding like a broken record because you're not addressing my points. Why avoid focusing on the biggest form of accent difference in the galaxy?
How has the Imperial accent changed, but Chaos has not? The Imperium is notoriously stagnant, and Chaos have just as much chance to change accent.
Why do you ignore the more likely cause of accent difference across the galaxy, and focus purely on one's allegiance?
Changing one's accent doesn't mean a character is portrayed well. I don't see how giving one faction X accent and another faction Y accent makes a difference to their characterisation.
I am all for characters being portrayed well. I don't see how an accent (which I might add, you're only adding to show that they're different in religion) would affect that.
You say social dynamics, but I don't see how my choice of god affects my accent. What I see by accent difference is location and geography - how a Nostraman would speak compared to a Calibanite. You don't address that in your proposal of accents, and deal with people's alliances and treat the Imperium and forces of Chaos as two single entities. They are not.
I did say some stuff but then you asked again without quoting some prior comments.
Eh, I'm not talking about the accent affecting the portrayal. I'm saying my idea would work well if the characters are portrayed well. C'mon, you gotta read more carefully
Can I restart this thread? Then you and I can just PM each other. I'm afraid this thread has become too cluttered with our conversation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 14:24:07
2017/04/17 14:34:14
Subject: Accent Differentiation for Loyalists and Traitors?
I'm gonna address all your concerns and please don't repeat.
And those social dynamics don't even bother you. You're just bothered that different factions could've different accents.
Its a cool idea if the characters are portrayed well and not one-dimensionally with a childish good vs evil narrative.
I'm sounding like a broken record because you're not addressing my points. Why avoid focusing on the biggest form of accent difference in the galaxy? How has the Imperial accent changed, but Chaos has not? The Imperium is notoriously stagnant, and Chaos have just as much chance to change accent. Why do you ignore the more likely cause of accent difference across the galaxy, and focus purely on one's allegiance?
Changing one's accent doesn't mean a character is portrayed well. I don't see how giving one faction X accent and another faction Y accent makes a difference to their characterisation. I am all for characters being portrayed well. I don't see how an accent (which I might add, you're only adding to show that they're different in religion) would affect that.
You say social dynamics, but I don't see how my choice of god affects my accent. What I see by accent difference is location and geography - how a Nostraman would speak compared to a Calibanite. You don't address that in your proposal of accents, and deal with people's alliances and treat the Imperium and forces of Chaos as two single entities. They are not.
I did say some stuff but then you asked again without quoting some prior comments.
I've quoted everything I address. However, all my points tend to come back to an essential element - why does Chaos and the Imperium have an accent gap, why isn't the larger and more targetable culture gap addressed, and why is it necessary to have a different accent?
Eh, I'm not talking about the accent affecting the portrayal. I'm saying my idea would work well if the characters are portrayed well. C'mon, you gotta read more carefully
This is what you say: "Its a cool idea if the characters are portrayed well and not one-dimensionally with a childish good vs evil narrative." I address this with "I don't see how an accent would affect that." Why did you even bring up a character's portrayal then if you don't think it has anything to do with accents? A good character is a good character, accent or not.
The crux of the issue is why is the accent so important? Why is it needed? You've said yourself, you're not bothered about it being correct - only that it represents a difference. Yet you don't think that the larger factor or different planets and cultures warrants representation.
Can I restart this thread? Then you and I can just PM each other. I'm afraid this thread has become too cluttered with our conversation.
The conversation is still on topic. Anyone can comment and critic the OP, my points, or anyone's points. I 'm not sure if restarting it would be conducive to the subforum.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 14:35:26
