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As i said i'm somewhat iffy with this considering poisoned shooting. Currently poisoned shooting is kinda meh already. If saves are added poisoned shooting would be absolute garbage. Can you imagine bikes getting armor and cover saves vs poisoned shots? I mean vs tough armies like necrons and admech it might still matter but vs bikes (if they can still jink) it won't matter at all.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
As i said i'm somewhat iffy with this considering poisoned shooting. Currently poisoned shooting is kinda meh already. If saves are added poisoned shooting would be absolute garbage. Can you imagine bikes getting armor and cover saves vs poisoned shots? I mean vs tough armies like necrons and admech it might still matter but vs bikes (if they can still jink) it won't matter at all.

Maybe poison weapons will gain a Mortal Wound on a 6 to Wound. Imagine that. How OP will be?!
Worring about rules when we don't have all the picture is really a futile effort. Just wait and see.

Hello. This was posted in the old 8th ed' rumour thread that quickly got overloaded with off topic flood, then closed. I think it would be nice to have following facts here.
So I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example obviously because we have his stats.


Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 AP: 0 heavy: 4 both calculations are done for BS 4 / BS 3+.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9 per shot which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/9) = 27 shots ; or 6.75 volleys for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/27 per shot which leads to an expected value of 8/(2/27) = 108 shots ; or 27 volleys for vehicle destruction.
300 % more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.


But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4 / BS 3+.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : given AP2 on a on the damage table we count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP removed per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 HP you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this second case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Spoiler:

Hello. This was posted in the old 8th ed' rumour thread that quickly got overloaded with off topic flood, then closed. I think it would be nice to have following facts here.
So I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example obviously because we have his stats.


Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 AP: 0 heavy: 4 both calculations are done for BS 4 / BS 3+.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9 per shot which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/9) = 27 shots ; or 6.75 volleys for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/27 per shot which leads to an expected value of 8/(2/27) = 108 shots ; or 27 volleys for vehicle destruction.
300 % more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.


But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4 / BS 3+.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : given AP2 on a on the damage table we count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP removed per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 HP you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this second case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

Actually I would argue that the Dread's survivabilities has increased against weapons that should be anti-infantry/light vehicles 9like Scatter lasers) but conversely anti-tank weapons have been boosted to actually do what they are supposed to.

I love this change in theory (theory being basically all we have right now) but it still remains to be seen if the balance is right. I am optimistic

-

I will be curious to see what happens with salvo weapons. They already pay a brutal penalty for movement.

Somewhat lowered against anti-tank weapons, highly increased against anti-infantry weapons, and now with chance to have wounds stripped by basic infantry weapons. Presumable a smaller chance of being one shot by a single weapon (although we're not sure on this, since we don't know the stats for meltaguns/ordnance weapons).

I would think that this is the system people wanted: Anti-tank weapons required to do any major damage and everything else being much harder to scrape anything off. since I imagine grav and haywire will also get nerfs, it's hard to imagine vehicles becoming weaker than they are now.

 Marmatag wrote:
I will be curious to see what happens with salvo weapons. They already pay a brutal penalty for movement.

Well, Salvo could just vanish, maybe? Change them to Heavy with full shots (or full shots -1) and let them suck the normal penalty for moving/shooting.

I don't think being able to one-shot a vehicle will be a thing in 8th. At least not enough to worry about.
I don't think any thing will do more than D6 Mortal Wounds and I think only Open-topped 2HP vehicles will end up with less than 6 wounds.

if you need a D-shot to kill a Vyper in 1 shot, that paints a pretty clear picture of how durable vehicles will be in 8th.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello. This was posted in the old 8th ed' rumour thread that quickly got overloaded with off topic flood, then closed. I think it would be nice to have following facts here.
So I would like to put out some arguments on vehicle resiliency. I will take the dreadnought as an example obviously because we have his stats.


Let's assume that scatter laser, a typical medium strength spammable weapon, a favourite in 7th ed will get its stats (S:6 AP:6 heavy 4) converted to this :
S:6 AP: 0 heavy: 4 both calculations are done for BS 4 / BS 3+.
probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9 per shot which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/9) = 27 shots ; or 6.75 volleys for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/27 per shot which leads to an expected value of 8/(2/27) = 108 shots ; or 27 volleys for vehicle destruction.
300 % more hits needed, the survivability is massively improved.


But...
Let's take a look as lascannon now, @ BS 4 / BS 3+.
It is difficult to calculate the expected value of hits to destroy a dreadnought in 7th edition because of the duality of stripping HP one by one and risk of sudden explosion.
To avoid the pain of building an obnoxious spread sheet let's assume this approximation : given AP2 on a on the damage table we count 3 HP instead of 1.
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/18
probability of removing 1 HP : 2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) + 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) = 7/18
expected value of HP removed per shot : 3*1/18 + 7/18 = 10/18 ; so to remove 3 HP you will need 3 / (10/18) = 5.40 lascannon shots approximately.

Now in 8th edition, it's simpler.
Each lascannon shot fired @ BS 3+ has 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108 probability of applying damage. Each damage has a mean value of 3.5 HP removed.
So to remove all 8 HP of the dreadnought you need : 8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.94 lascannon shots approximately.

As you can see, in this second case, because of the introduction of multiple damage and lowering of T value of the dreadnought, his survivability is somewhat lowered in 8th edition.

What? Not going to look at cover saves which aren't difficult to get even for Vehicles?

probability to strip a HP in 7th ed : 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/2 = 2/36 per shot which leads to an expected value of 3/(1/18) = 54 shots ; or 13.5 volleys for vehicle destruction.
probability to strip a HP in 8th ed : 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 2/54 per shot which leads to an expected value of 8/(1/27) = 216 shots ; or 54 volleys for vehicle destruction.


7th Edition
probability of removing 3 HP via penetrating hits : 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/2 * 3 = 3/72

probability of removing 1 HP :
2/3 * 1/6 (glancing hits) * 1/2 = 2/36
2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 (non explosive penetrating hits) * 1/2 = 10/72
10/72 + 4/72 + 3/72 = 17/72
3/ (17/72) = 12.70 Lascannon Shots

Edit -
probability of removing 2 HP via penetrating hit after a glancing hit : 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/2 * 2 = 14/648
90/648 + 36/648 + 27/648 + 14/648= 3/(167/648) = 11.64 Lascannon Shots

Edit2 -
[i]probability of removing 2 HP via immobilizing twice : 2/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/2 * 2 = 2/648
90/648 + 36/648 + 27/648 + 14/648 + 2/648 = 3/(169/648) = 11.50 Lascannon Shots (Note this is with everything else factored in)



8th Edition = 2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 20/54
8 / (3.5 * 20/54) = 6.17 Lascannon Shots