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So it looks like we are getting some kind of super super soldiers, Thunder warriors perhaps.

Also anyone know who does the voice?

That would explain the larger nu-marines.

It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...

Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...

I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?

Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?

Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...

Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...

I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?

Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?

Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I mean, they essentially did the same thing with AoS "Sigmarines," right?

"What if we put a Space Marine...

... INSIDE... of a Space Marine?"

 Traditio wrote:

Spoiler:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...

Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...

I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?

Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?

Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I mean, they essentially did the same thing with AoS "Sigmarines," right?

No, not really. Fantasy didn't really have something like Stormcast, and they were a new idea for the setting. Reforging is a good concept, that hasn't been seen before (I don't think).

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.

My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.

More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.

Just watched that, and am glad space marines are not my primary army. My knee-jerk reaction is to dislike it, as it seems like a step to make existing space marine armies obsolete, but after the revelations so far I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I didn't like centurions at first either (Yo dawg I hear you like power armor), but now I'm ok with them.

My personal guess is that these will be the kind of things where you bring 1 for your army, maybe 2, and they'll be expensive. Not lords of war kind of units, but something like a really strong HQ with some tactical flexibility. Like what Voldus was supposed to be.

Its time to excommunicate these traitors.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.

My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.

More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.

Except all dark ages end, and even during them technology advances. There is no historical precedent for the 40K setting. It seems impossible in any post-information age setting. Planetary cloud storage systems and interplanetary cloud storage systems would make it nearly impossible to lose anything.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.

My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.

More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.

The setting is quite off putting for many new players. A large portion of the players just want to play the good guys, and do not like this grim dark nonsense at all.
They might just create this wedge in the IoM to allow players who do not have a skull fetish or dislike the twisted religious vibe to play their knights in space army.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?

I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.

My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.

More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.

Except all dark ages end, and even during them technology advances. There is no historical precedent for the 40K setting. It seems impossible any post-information age setting. Planetary cloud storage systems and interplanetary cloud storage systems would make it nearly impossible to lose anything.

Which is why 40k is more a "fantasy in space" setting than a SciFi setting. This is a universe where spaceship gun turrets are borne onto target by slave-chain-gang crews rotating great gears and cogs and the like.

But more to the point, the 40k setting fundamentally is just built on a concept that technology is not a savior, hope is lost, advancement a fevered dream. That's been a crucial part of the thematic underpinnings since its inception.

 oldzoggy wrote:


The setting is quite off putting for many new players. A large portion of the players just want to play the good guys, and do not like this grim dark nonsense at all.
They might just create this wedge in the IoM to allow players who do not have a skull fetish or dislike the twisted religious vibe to play their knights in space army.

Then I would posit that the Tau Empire exists as an outlet, and that changing a fundamental premise of the IP, the only thing that keeps the product relevant and interesting, is a potential landmine. If people don't like the "grim dark nonesense", then 40k isn't going to be their thing either way. More to the point, it's unlikely that NuMarines will have any fewer skulls and whatnot.

Maybe it's harder to swallow when 10 year kids have smartphones.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's harder to swallow when 10 year kids have smartphones.

*shudder*

For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.

The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.

As far as tone, while I empathize with the players who've been around since the early days of 40K, the setting really hasn't been all that grimdark since at least 5th edition, which is over ten years old.

I mean, Abaddon destroying Chaos is the only non-Imperial major victory we've seen in like 20 years.

Martel732 wrote:
For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.

The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.

Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.

Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.

Of course scatter is gone in 8th so who knows.

There should be several planets wrecked a year in this kind of setting. GW is just not very good at plot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.

The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.

Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.

Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.

Of course scatter is gone in 8th so who knows.

Not really; both smart missiles and modern armor use computers to target and hit. Hammerheads, for example, should NEVER miss a Leman Russ. I know its a game, but it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for the Tau.

Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.

This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.

But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence, religious oppression and xenophobia.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.

This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.

Spoiler:

But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence, religious oppression and xenophobia.

Huh, interesting.

Does anyone know if pre-Sigmar Fantasy was similar to 40K in terms of tone? The guilliman art there reminds me alot of the art I've seen in the few Fantasy codices I've read.

I have the same issue Oldzoggy has. It's hard to get people into Warhammer when everyone is only different by varying degrees of Donkey-caveness.

40k is darker in general. Some empire and skavem stuff had similar art and tones, but most factions weren't this grim dark at all.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.

This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.

But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence and xenophobia.

Right, and that's kind of the point. 40k is a universe where the *good guys* are unimaginably bad, because the actual *bad guys* are even worse. Dialing everything up to 11 is part of what makes 40k what it is.

It's a universe where basically, the question of "what if we rolled Stalin, Hitler, the Spanish Inquisition, the worst elements of the Crusades and other stuff up into one universe...and they're the Good Guys?" is answered.

Even in your example pic of what players like to see when they play the good guys, you have huge elements of oppressive religious and fascist imagery. Great ranks of powerful warriors proudly displaying their war banners topped with horned skulls under the baleful glare of a powerful war leader clad in golden armor bearing powerful and cruel looking melee weapons. I mean, hell, the Imperial Aquila slapped everwhere is not so subtly inspired by the Reichadler of the 30's and 40's.

In the intro to every edition of 40k since the 1980's, the below blurb has been the intro used to describe the setting to new players.

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Isn't it kinda old, the whole super dark, grim pointless doomed universe of death and pointlessness, sucking you into an inevitable doom? I mean, it's cool and all, but sometimes good guys are fun.

Also, a primarch just came back. The exact same primarch who assumed to be emperor when he thought the emperor was dead back in 30k. He wouldn't try to bring it back to its old glory days again? I think it's cool, personally. I don't even think he's "saving the day as an epic super god." He's still only one dude with a small force of reimagined space marines. It just gives that element of hope that some players, especially new players, probably need to get into the universe.

That said, plastic sisters plez GW... plastic sisters...

P.S. I wouldn't be playing 40k if I didn't like the grim dark setting. It's just kinda nice to see some motion from the "good guys" for once

The old world was doomed. this didn't make it grim dark. Lotr kinda is doomed for most of the movie, as is Game of thrones both aren't grim dark if you ask me.
Bretonnia knights where just shiny knights on horses, and Lizardmen where just fantasy iindiana jones maya's crosses with lizards who had tacy names.
There where dark comers such as mortheim and mussilon, but anyone in there whas scum or evil etc. While most good guys in 40k are secretly over religious space nazi's or brain controlled thralls at best.

The doomed universe of gloomy doom isn't too bad its just that not all players want to play with an immoral faction. Just look at how many players in this forum have a "but my guys are the good guys" alternative headcannon army.

Well, that video is dumb and showcases dumb ideas.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.

This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.

But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence and xenophobia.

Right, and that's kind of the point. 40k is a universe where the *good guys* are unimaginably bad, because the actual *bad guys* are even worse. Dialing everything up to 11 is part of what makes 40k what it is.

It's a universe where basically, the question of "what if we rolled Stalin, Hitler, the Spanish Inquisition, the worst elements of the Crusades and other stuff up into one universe...and they're the Good Guys?" is answered.

Even in your example pic of what players like to see when they play the good guys, you have huge elements of oppressive religious and fascist imagery. Great ranks of powerful warriors proudly displaying their war banners topped with horned skulls under the baleful glare of a powerful war leader clad in golden armor bearing powerful and cruel looking melee weapons. I mean, hell, the Imperial Aquila slapped everwhere is not so subtly inspired by the Reichadler of the 30's and 40's.

In the intro to every edition of 40k since the 1980's, the below blurb has been the intro used to describe the setting to new players.

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

It gets tiring only having shades of black.

I like the grim dark parody nonsense its just that I do not think that it is the best marketing strategy to be 100% over the top evil ; )