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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That is the lamest possible way they could have done this.

No, the lamest still goes to Certurions, space marines in space marines.

Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."

Lazy, yes, but acceptable.

This, though?

This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"

Just fething sad really.

Read my other post, it does make sense to try and trump CSM with better soldiers.

Bah! They'll just get Fabius Bile to make even better super soldiers to counter them.

I guess better is a point of view

That wasn't my complaint. The video basically makes Roboute out to be an even more boring mary sue than he already was.

 Melissia wrote:
That wasn't my complaint. The video basically makes Roboute out to be an even more boring mary sue than he already was.

Oh fair enough.


He is a bloody Primarh though.

Worst primarch though IMO, and this isn't making him better. Even Angron has more depth, and his core personality is basically just "I'm angry".

 Melissia wrote:
Worst primarch though IMO, and this isn't making him better. Even Angron has more depth, and his core personality is basically just "I'm angry".

Meh he is pretty much Julius Ceasar, and I love Roman history

Gaius Julius Caesar, as written by an ignorant 14 year old who wants to create a flawless perfect hero to worship and can't figure out why no one likes his character.

 Melissia wrote:
Gaius Julius Caesar, as written by an ignorant 14 year old who wants to create a flawless perfect hero to worship and can't figure out why no one likes his character.

He is hardly flawless, the fact he is perceived as such is partly what makes him so interesting.

You say "interesting", I say "boring". Like most of the primarchs, he belongs in 30k and 30k is where he should have remained.

 Melissia wrote:
You say "interesting", I say "boring". Like most of the primarchs, he belongs in 30k and 30k is where he should have remained.

I guess our own opinions will remain our own opinions, and neither will be swayed

Personally, very excited about all Primarch's return. More is generally better in my opinion, when it comes to options. I am almost drooling at the thought of Mortarion returning, and bring on tougher space marines to take him on!

I fully admit-- I've never liked the primarchs as anything but legendary legends and mythical myths that we've forgotten the truth about, but they live on through retellings of their deeds and their descendants. I liked all the primarchs when that is what they were.

Unfortunately, that ship has long since sailed with Black Library's dreadful 30k series. It was inevitable after those books that they'd dump 40k for 30k, and that's exactly what this is.

That kind of power escalation stuff stops working as a wargame very shortly, and is in large part what contributed to 7E becoming such a mess.

The "bigger, better, more -ier than whatever came before" hasn't done much good for 40k when it comes to new units and the like.

And besides, with stuff like Mortarion and needing SuperMarines for that...didn't we already get the Grey Knights for that...?

I was making posts back in 2014 about wanting Primarchs to return. Been waiting years for this moment.

Grey Knights can't be everywhere. If Death Guard pop into a system with Salamanders, they don't run away and call for the Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on the topic of balance, lucky we are getting a reset then aye?

This is only going to exacerbate the perception of SM players that Xenos are just there to provide target practice for their Hero Dudesmen.

 Melissia wrote:

Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."

Lazy, yes, but acceptable.

This, though?

This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"

Just fething sad really.

Since the very day Guilliman's return was announced by GW, I've been waiting. Desperately waiting, for you to log on and complain about it. And my patience has been decadently rewarded.

Now if I can just get Lynata active again...

I'm glad they're moving the plot along, and I'm interested to see where they take it. However, the one concern that I have is how this is going to manifest in the game - are they really going to release a faction of Ultra Ultramarines? Just a new line of Space Marines that don't have stumpy legs, and call it a day?

If they revamp the Space Marines line with a new standard of model to represent marines I'm going to be somewhat miffed.

 Rippy wrote:
I was making posts back in 2014 about wanting Primarchs to return. Been waiting years for this moment.

Grey Knights can't be everywhere. If Death Guard pop into a system with Salamanders, they don't run away and call for the Grey Knights.

To be fair, neither can the Space Marines. On a galactic scale, the difference in numbers is irrelevant as they're both so rare as to be effectively nonexistent.

Either way, there was already a faction purpose built for this kind of task and background niche already, hamfisting another one in feels, well, cheap and unnecessary.

And on the topic of balance, lucky we are getting a reset then aye?

Yes, but if these new guys have new rules that just amount to be "SuperMarines", that doesn't help things.

 Luciferian wrote:
I'm glad they're moving the plot along, and I'm interested to see where they take it. However, the one concern that I have is how this is going to manifest in the game - are they really going to release a faction of Ultra Ultramarines? Just a new line of Space Marines that don't have stumpy legs, and call it a day?

If they revamp the Space Marines line with a new standard of model to represent marines I'm going to be somewhat miffed.

The line about restoring dead or near-dead chapters heavily implies that any chapter might have the nu-marines.

They'll most likely be their own stand-alone army, with options for them to be taken as allies or an elites choice or whatever in all the other chapter dexes.

The absolute last thing this setting needed was nu-Marines. If GW wants to re-do the SM line, fine. Re-do it. But more marines who are more marine than marines? We already have those. We have Grey Knights. We have Custodes. For that matter, we have Centurions, who are just Marines in your Marines, so you can Marine while you Marine.

I like what they're doing with the story, it's nice to finally have things moving again, but nu-Marines weren't necessary. I honestly don't even mind the Primarchs returning, but I don't necessarily want them striding across the battlefields of the 41st millenium. Keep them as plot devices, tacticians, generals, etc. They were created to lead - let them lead. Have them try to return the Imperium to it's former glory, have them help create new technologies to fight the machinations of Chaos. Have them create the hope that the Imperium needs.

But instead, we are getting more Gary Stu's so the Space Marines can be the toughest kids on the block again. I'm definitely excited about the reboot of the game rules, but I now worry that these will be that first step towards one-upsmanship. These guys are going to be gnarly, so someone else is going to get a new gnarly to fight the current gnarly. And so on...

You know what I was thinking, he said he brought ancient tech back to make these guys. And they're going on a crusade. What if Guilliman is making something equivalent to primarchs to lead against the forces of chaos?

What would have been the most interesting thing to me is if the Primarchs came back and then almost immediately rebelled against this foreign, hyper-regressive Imperium, creating their own third faction.

So essentially it would be the Primarchs with their loyal followers, vs the Imperium itself vs Chaos.

I suppose that would be too derivative, though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What would have been the most interesting thing to me is if the Primarchs came back and then almost immediately rebelled against this foreign, hyper-regressive Imperium, creating their own third faction.

So essentially it would be the Primarchs with their loyal followers, vs the Imperium itself vs Chaos.

I suppose that would be too derivative, though.

Our of respect for the Emperor, habit, purpose and the old enemy still existing, I would say there is less reason than ever for the Loyalists to go against the Imperium. Just my opinion though.

Respect for the Emperor is actually the greatest motivator for the Primarchs to want to overthrow the High Lords. The Imperium does not resemble the Emperor's vision on any level. Every aspect of what the Imperium was and stood for has regressed by the time of the 41st millenium.

I agree about the existence of Chaos being the greater evil to focus on, though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Respect for the Emperor is actually the greatest motivator for the Primarchs to want to overthrow the High Lords. The Imperium does not resemble the Emperor's vision on any level. Every aspect of what the Imperium was and stood for has regressed by the time of the 41st millenium.

I agree about the existence of Chaos being the greater evil to focus on, though.

On that note, how would rebelling against the Imperium help to bring the Emperor's vision in to existence? I am sure humanity would generally love to throw off their shackles of oppression if offered. Getting people off religion would be tough, as it even appeared during the Great Crusade, though rebelling against the Imperium would still suffer that problem.

Martel732 wrote:
There should be several planets wrecked a year in this kind of setting. GW is just not very good at plot.


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 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.

The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.

Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.

Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.

Of course scatter is gone in 8th so who knows.

Not really; both smart missiles and modern armor use computers to target and hit. Hammerheads, for example, should NEVER miss a Leman Russ. I know its a game, but it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for the Tau.

Yep your right. Modern tanks can be moving at top speed and hit everything with perfect accuracy. Heck they have automated guns on US ships now they shoot the head off a guy in a speed boat doing his best to evade fire.

When you play fictional settings like this just throw reality out the window and have fun. If I didn't do this I couldn't ever enjoy anything fictional again.

Edit
I do think GW is a hairsbreadth away from removing non-eldar Xenos and just making 30k Mk2. The next rumored releases after all of these? MORE primarchs from both sides. If this is the case I'm selling my still in box deathwatch I was about to work on. I feel so dirty for contributing to the problem. I guess Age of Sigmar is the only hope for interesting stuff now. I just want them to come out and say Xenos will get stuff this year. Doesn;t have to be specific just say it damn it. All that happens is more and more marines and super marines, and primarchs, and mega deamons primarchs, and super hell mega death jesus primarchs, and so on and so forth until the end of time until the regular space marine is the size of a galaxy.

 Rippy wrote:
On that note, how would rebelling against the Imperium help to bring the Emperor's vision in to existence?

Removing the High Lords from power and instituting superior policies- policies that are burdened by politics and beaucracies- essentially, the same way the Emperor forged the Imperium to begin with.

It wouldn't be an overnight process, no- it would likely take centuries.

This thread has turned into the same people just agreeing with each other over and over.

It seems to me that a primarch awaking into a technologically diminished world would not be able to instantly upgrade the marine force. Corvus had trouble just creating normal marines and he had better technological resources than RG has (though Corvus was thwarted by outside interference). I would have thought the Dark Mechanicus, unhindered by Imperial dogma and with direct access to warp technologies, would be the more likely candidates to come up with an improved marine model.

From a purely practical perspective, it seems to me that GW is focusing its model development in proportion to its faction popularity when it may do better to have some variety. Even if you are a Space Marine fan, the standing of the hero is as much a function of the quality of the villain as it is the quality of the hero itself.

That said, if this IS, in fact, the beginning of an Imperial schism, where progressive humanist loyalists to the Imperial Truth make war on the religious zealots of the Imperial Creed, that too could bring some balance. It could, at least, go some way in making marine on marine battles more fluffy and, perhaps, interesting.

poachninja wrote:
It seems to me that a primarch awaking into a technologically diminished world would not be able to instantly upgrade the marine force. Corvus had trouble just creating normal marines and he had better technological resources than RG has (though Corvus was thwarted by outside interference). I would have thought the Dark Mechanicus, unhindered by Imperial dogma and with direct access to warp technologies, would be the more likely candidates to come up with an improved marine model.

From a purely practical perspective, it seems to me that GW is focusing its model development in proportion to its faction popularity when it may do better to have some variety. Even if you are a Space Marine fan, the standing of the hero is as much a function of the quality of the villain as it is the quality of the hero itself.

That said, if this IS, in fact, the beginning of an Imperial schism, where progressive humanist loyalists to the Imperial Truth make war on the religious zealots of the Imperial Creed, that too could bring some balance. It could, at least, go some way in making marine on marine battles more fluffy and, perhaps, interesting.

Time skip maybe. Not a big one like maybe 100 to 500 years.

Personally I think all the teeth gnashing we've been seeing over this is a strong support for the argument that a FAAC player is much more dangerous then a WAAC player.

What is FAAC?