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So, I am in dire need of some tasty sauce. I think I remember reading in a BRB that the original custodes were thunder warriors from the unification wars on earth. That the thunder warriors, I also believe reading in a BRB, were genetic offspring of the emporer. Can anyone confirm? If so, reference?

Its never been said or confirmed that the thunder warriors are the custodes or vise verse.

How ever, is plausible that some of them are, but not all of them.

The custodes are not so much clones of the emperor, but rather better versions of space marines. Think of custodes like the artisan version of the space marine, and the normal space marine as the mass production model.

I can confirm that all the Thunder Warriors are dead. So the current batch of Custodes are definitely not Thunder Warriors.
Better is also a matter for debate, Thunder Warriors were physically superior to Space Marines but they were much more aggressive, mentally unstable aggressive - so not the best for guard duties, they also had a limited (by design) lifespan. It's entirely possible that Custodes aren't Space Marines but that would be in a similar way to them not being Thunder Warriors Backspacehacker called them a limited design as opposed to the mass produced Space Marine, that's probably accurate.

At the end of The Outcast Dead, it's shown that at least two Thunder Warriors were still alive at the outbreak of the Heresy, with the techology to extend their lives, and that of any others.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I can confirm that all the Thunder Warriors are dead. So the current batch of Custodes are definitely not Thunder Warriors.
Better is also a matter for debate, Thunder Warriors were physically superior to Space Marines but they were much more aggressive, mentally unstable aggressive - so not the best for guard duties, they also had a limited (by design) lifespan. It's entirely possible that Custodes aren't Space Marines but that would be in a similar way to them not being Thunder Warriors Backspacehacker called them a limited design as opposed to the mass produced Space Marine, that's probably accurate.

Judging by the way the Emperor refers to them more affectionately than he does the Primarchs when in private, the Emperor certainly feels more of an emotional connection to the Custodes than a bog standard Marine. The impression given is that every Custodes was personally selected by him for elevation to Custodes over a protracted period of Earth's history. What's more, he probably had a far more personal hand in their refinement; much like how he's shown to have given a limited number of Marines personal psychic protection just before they left Earth to search for the Primarchs.

The Thunder Warriors, on the other hand, were just his first expendable army. It's not impossible he turned some Thunder Warriors into Custodes by some arcane ritual unknown to us, but there's no evidence that anything like that ever happened. The Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, and Marines are primarily just blunt tools he crafted for the purpose of bringing the remnants of humanity to heel. Once their purpose is achieved, he either discards them or puts them to work for a new purpose (think of the vision of Magnus on the throne).

Horus, bizarely enough, had the right of it in some regards. His father didn't want to make himself a God, but he certainly had no real attachment to the tools he was using to craft his vision for humanity, and would likely have disposed of most of them once their part was done. Likely Angron and Curze would have vanished mysteriously in warp travel, individual marines would have been sent on suicide missions and then not replaced, and so on. Horus just struck first.

 Ketara wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I can confirm that all the Thunder Warriors are dead. So the current batch of Custodes are definitely not Thunder Warriors.
Better is also a matter for debate, Thunder Warriors were physically superior to Space Marines but they were much more aggressive, mentally unstable aggressive - so not the best for guard duties, they also had a limited (by design) lifespan. It's entirely possible that Custodes aren't Space Marines but that would be in a similar way to them not being Thunder Warriors Backspacehacker called them a limited design as opposed to the mass produced Space Marine, that's probably accurate.

Judging by the way the Emperor refers to them more affectionately than he does the Primarchs when in private, the Emperor certainly feels more of an emotional connection to the Custodes than a bog standard Marine. The impression given is that every Custodes was personally selected by him for elevation to Custodes over a protracted period of Earth's history. What's more, he probably had a far more personal hand in their refinement; much like how he's shown to have given a limited number of Marines personal psychic protection just before they left Earth to search for the Primarchs.

The Thunder Warriors, on the other hand, were just his first expendable army. It's not impossible he turned some Thunder Warriors into Custodes by some arcane ritual unknown to us, but there's no evidence that anything like that ever happened. The Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, and Marines are primarily just blunt tools he crafted for the purpose of bringing the remnants of humanity to heel. Once their purpose is achieved, he either discards them or puts them to work for a new purpose (think of the vision of Magnus on the throne).

Horus, bizarely enough, had the right of it in some regards. His father didn't want to make himself a God, but he certainly had no real attachment to the tools he was using to craft his vision for humanity, and would likely have disposed of most of them once their part was done. Likely Angron and Curze would have vanished mysteriously in warp travel, individual marines would have been sent on suicide missions and then not replaced, and so on. Horus just struck first.

I'm pretty sure there is some lore that says the Emperor had a massive retirement home in the works on Terra for at least the Primarchs. He probably did care for them. Astartes are a different story.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Primarch

There has been intense speculation as to what the Emperor originally intended to do with the Primarchs if his plans had come to fruition and the galaxy had truly become an uncontested human domain. Unknown even to the Primarchs themselves, a vast underground cavern deep beneath the Imperial Palace had been designated as residential quarters for the Primarchs. There were 20 spacious apartments located there overlooking a large lake, with their design scaled for habitation by residents of the Primarch's massive proportions. At least one of the Primarchs, Corax, is known to have briefly stayed in his designated apartment during a visit to Terra at the beginning of the Horus Heresy.

The idea that all the Primarchs could be corralled into these residential quarters during an extended time of peace and prosperity after the Great Crusade had been successfully concluded was probably wishful thinking on the part of the Emperor.

Have you seen what the Emperor was like when he had Angron chained unconscious to a table with his head carved open? The Primarchs were just a tool. The more warmongering ones would have been ill suited to peacetime, and removed from the board once there no was no further use for them. Angron, Curze, possibly even Russ, would have been purged. The rest would have been pushed into new purposes and uses. Magnus would have been hooked up to his chair, Guilliman would probably have taken over the administration, and so on.

But Him having a new use for them in no way denotes affection. It's very clearly shown in practically all times he mentions the Primarchs without them present, his caring for them was little more than the mild attachment of a craftsman to his work. Like an author, he takes pride in what's on the page, but with no compunction about hitting the delete key and starting over if he feels it necessary.

 Ketara wrote:
Have you seen what the Emperor was like when he had Angron chained unconscious to a table with his head carved open? The Primarchs were just a tool. The more warmongering ones would have been ill suited to peacetime, and removed from the board once there no was no further use for them. Angron, Curze, possibly even Russ, would have been purged. The rest would have been pushed into new purposes and uses. Magnus would have been hooked up to his chair, Guilliman would probably have taken over the administration, and so on.

But Him having a new use for them in no way denotes affection. It's very clearly shown in practically all times he mentions the Primarchs without them present, his caring for them was little more than the mild attachment of a craftsman to his work. Like an author, he takes pride in what's on the page, but with no compunction about hitting the delete key and starting over if he feels it necessary.

I never understood this 'Magnus on the throne' thing. The Emperor was building a Webway. If it had all worked, there wouldn't need to be any warp travel or an astronomicon so why would the throne even have a point?

And I'll point to the retirement castle again. I doubt he had that built just for giggles.

But in Master of Mankind, IIRC, doesn't the Emperor kind of refer to them as tools and makes a comment about how he "allows" the Primarchs to call him father but kind of alludes to the fact he doesn't see them as his sons, more as weapons? I could be wrong though, I've been wrong before.

Audustum wrote:


And I'll point to the retirement castle again. I doubt he had that built just for giggles.

Marine sized mousetraps?

 jeff white wrote:

Audustum wrote:


And I'll point to the retirement castle again. I doubt he had that built just for giggles.

Marine sized mousetraps?

Audustum wrote:

And I'll point to the retirement castle again. I doubt he had that built just for giggles.

The fact there was room for twenty very clearly indicates it was built prior to them all being found and before he had any idea what they'd be like as adults.

And to reiterate, if he could find another purpose for them, I've no doubt he would have done. Primarchs had superior intellects, memories, and so forth, they would have been valuable tools for administering and ruling his domain once it was fully functional. He would have also wanted to keep them handy in the case of a new threat arising just in case (like the Tyranids, for example).

None of this means that he had a particular emotional attachment to them, or that he ever hesitated to strike them down if he felt they weren't following his vision for their purpose. Two were eliminated before the Heresy even began!

Hierophant wrote:
At the end of The Outcast Dead, it's shown that at least two Thunder Warriors were still alive at the outbreak of the Heresy, with the techology to extend their lives, and that of any others.

Even being way past there design lives and practicaly dieing and bodies starting to fail they can still face marines.
They are not even at peak condition, far from it.

Also they by avarna , the thousand son. Have strong mental defences. These are stongly Psi attack resistant. Crude compared to custodious, and others but there mental warding is still good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
Have you seen what the Emperor was like when he had Angron chained unconscious to a table with his head carved open? The Primarchs were just a tool. The more warmongering ones would have been ill suited to peacetime, and removed from the board once there no was no further use for them. Angron, Curze, possibly even Russ, would have been purged. The rest would have been pushed into new purposes and uses. Magnus would have been hooked up to his chair, Guilliman would probably have taken over the administration, and so on.

But Him having a new use for them in no way denotes affection. It's very clearly shown in practically all times he mentions the Primarchs without them present, his caring for them was little more than the mild attachment of a craftsman to his work. Like an author, he takes pride in what's on the page, but with no compunction about hitting the delete key and starting over if he feels it necessary.

He may of kept Russ.
He was highly loyal to the Emperor unlike the other two. He never seemed to question his orders and would see thr accomplished.

Just because Russ is loyal doesn't mean he would be useful in big E's new world order. If the Emperor though he'd be more trouble than he's worth Russ'd go the way of the Thunder Warriors.

I'd quite like to see that alternative universe explored. No primarchs rebel, the Emperor unites the galaxy then sparks a civil war against the Primarchs and their legions, humanity hunting them down through the galaxy like dogs on the run.

Would certainly be fun to explore

 Rysgame wrote:
So, I am in dire need of some tasty sauce. I think I remember reading in a BRB that the original custodes were thunder warriors from the unification wars on earth. That the thunder warriors, I also believe reading in a BRB, were genetic offspring of the emporer. Can anyone confirm? If so, reference?

Thunder Warriors did most of the initial conquering of Terra. However once they started to mutate and fail, the Emperor had them all purged by the Custodes and First Legion. The Custodes and First Legion then conquered the last bits of Terra before going through the rest of the system and beyond.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Rysgame wrote:
So, I am in dire need of some tasty sauce. I think I remember reading in a BRB that the original custodes were thunder warriors from the unification wars on earth. That the thunder warriors, I also believe reading in a BRB, were genetic offspring of the emporer. Can anyone confirm? If so, reference?

Thunder Warriors did most of the initial conquering of Terra. However once they started to mutate and fail, the Emperor had them all purged by the Custodes and First Legion. The Custodes and First Legion then conquered the last bits of Terra before going through the rest of the system and beyond.

I'm almost suprised in desperation of heresy the emperor did not make more batches to reinforce terra and his few legions he had.
They only unstable with age... But make good disposable shock troops.

Thunder warriors broke the inithil resistance to the emparor. But it was the early legions that began to take a growing role in the end. And formed there early identies on terra and in sol system.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Rysgame wrote:
So, I am in dire need of some tasty sauce. I think I remember reading in a BRB that the original custodes were thunder warriors from the unification wars on earth. That the thunder warriors, I also believe reading in a BRB, were genetic offspring of the emporer. Can anyone confirm? If so, reference?

Thunder Warriors did most of the initial conquering of Terra. However once they started to mutate and fail, the Emperor had them all purged by the Custodes and First Legion. The Custodes and First Legion then conquered the last bits of Terra before going through the rest of the system and beyond.

I'm almost suprised in desperation of heresy the emperor did not make more batches to reinforce terra and his few legions he had.
They only unstable with age... But make good disposable shock troops.

Thunder warriors broke the inithil resistance to the emparor. But it was the early legions that began to take a growing role in the end. And formed there early identies on terra and in sol system.

I don't know the process that went into making Thunder Warriors but Space Marines have high failure and waste levels, it's possible that the process of making Thunder Warriors has even higher failure rates.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Rysgame wrote:
So, I am in dire need of some tasty sauce. I think I remember reading in a BRB that the original custodes were thunder warriors from the unification wars on earth. That the thunder warriors, I also believe reading in a BRB, were genetic offspring of the emporer. Can anyone confirm? If so, reference?

Thunder Warriors did most of the initial conquering of Terra. However once they started to mutate and fail, the Emperor had them all purged by the Custodes and First Legion. The Custodes and First Legion then conquered the last bits of Terra before going through the rest of the system and beyond.

I'm almost suprised in desperation of heresy the emperor did not make more batches to reinforce terra and his few legions he had.
They only unstable with age... But make good disposable shock troops.

Thunder warriors broke the inithil resistance to the emparor. But it was the early legions that began to take a growing role in the end. And formed there early identies on terra and in sol system.

The Emperor was fully occupied sitting in the Golden Throne preventing daemonic hordes from spilling out onto the Earth. Considering how long beforehand Thunder Warriors were about, I doubt anyone bar him possessed the full knowledge necessary to create them independently. I suppose he could have given the orders and shown where the instructions were, so to speak. But then again, Terra was already funnelling as much as it could in the way of arms and space marine creation, I suspect. Last thing it needs is another supply chain being set up for some kind of newly formed completely green Thunder Warriors unit.

Isn't it the case that:

Thunder Warriors- Post human
Space Marines- Post human
Post human as in started off human.

Custodes- Not at all human.
Primarchs- Not human.
Not human as resemble but were never actually human.

According to Id4Chan both the Thunder Warriors and Custodes are post human but don't use gene-seed technology. The Custodes are taken much younger than astartes, modified in a similar way to Thunder Warriors but in stages that kill off the unstable and unworthy before they reach their prime.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
According to Id4Chan both the Thunder Warriors and Custodes are post human but don't use gene-seed technology. The Custodes are taken much younger than astartes, modified in a similar way to Thunder Warriors but in stages that kill off the unstable and unworthy before they reach their prime.

Master of Mankind explictly confirms this, we see the orgins of one of the custodes. the infant child of a noble woman who rebelled against the emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ILegion wrote:
But in Master of Mankind, IIRC, doesn't the Emperor kind of refer to them as tools and makes a comment about how he "allows" the Primarchs to call him father but kind of alludes to the fact he doesn't see them as his sons, more as weapons? I could be wrong though, I've been wrong before.

true but on the otherhand we also have stories of the primarchs indicating a somewhat warm relationship with him the best I can figure is the emperor is a bit of a social chamleon whon basicly tells everyone what they want to hear. to the primarchs he's their loving dad, to the custodes "nah they're just tools. YOU GUYS are my special people" over all my gut feeling is he's not partiucularly attached to ANYONE, custode, primarch space marine etc. those closest to him are closest because they're useful, (or he perceives they someday will be useful)

realisticly the emperor is likely so ancient, so powerful that he can't really interact with people etc very well because he's not fully capable of udnerstanding them. my read is he's also grown used to using his psykic powers as a bit of a crutch for that.

I think he really is attached to the Custodians though- hes explicitly crafted them to be immortal (unlike the the very much only theoretically and probably not immortal Astartes), and educated in such a way as to provide conversation and debate woth him, since they are his constant companions.

I think the tone that supposed to be established is one like wjere the emperor is like Alexander the great, and his elite unit of the custodians as the Hetairoi-“ the compaions”- who were the best trained and educated of the Macedonian nobility, and where most of Alexanders actual friends and “near equals” would have come from.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think he really is attached to the Custodians though- hes explicitly crafted them to be immortal (unlike the the very much only theoretically and probably not immortal Astartes), and educated in such a way as to provide conversation and debate woth him, since they are his constant companions.

I think the tone that supposed to be established is one like wjere the emperor is like Alexander the great, and his elite unit of the custodians as the Hetairoi-“ the compaions”- who were the best trained and educated of the Macedonian nobility, and where most of Alexanders actual friends and “near equals” would have come from.

I like that comparison.

At the end of the day, his 'sons' are his lab rats. Some of them turned out well, others not so much. He probably has a varying level of attachment depending upon the son. I think for the majority though, it's a deeply resounding 'Meh', which is often mirrored in some cases. Look, for example, at Khan or Alpharius. Nothing wrong with them so much as people pre-heresy, they're not like Curze or Angron or the destroyed two, but both appear ambivalent towards Daddy and I would expect he reciprocates. He certainly barely trusts most of them, he didn't even tell them about the Warp or Webway Gates, which all his Praetorians know about.

The Custodians, on the other hand, were hand-picked. People he personally raised in effect or already knew and thought they'd make a good addition. The people he specifically selected to surround him at all times. More akin to friends and companions than distant adopted sons. He was ready to sacrifice their lives for the 'Greater Good', but you get a sense of genuine regret and loss from him in doing so. Horus and Co? Their betrayal is more of a general irritation than an emotional blow.

 Ketara wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think he really is attached to the Custodians though- hes explicitly crafted them to be immortal (unlike the the very much only theoretically and probably not immortal Astartes), and educated in such a way as to provide conversation and debate woth him, since they are his constant companions.

I think the tone that supposed to be established is one like wjere the emperor is like Alexander the great, and his elite unit of the custodians as the Hetairoi-“ the compaions”- who were the best trained and educated of the Macedonian nobility, and where most of Alexanders actual friends and “near equals” would have come from.

I like that comparison.

At the end of the day, his 'sons' are his lab rats. Some of them turned out well, others not so much. He probably has a varying level of attachment depending upon the son. I think for the majority though, it's a deeply resounding 'Meh', which is often mirrored in some cases. Look, for example, at Khan or Alpharius. Nothing wrong with them so much as people pre-heresy, they're not like Curze or Angron or the destroyed two, but both appear ambivalent towards Daddy and I would expect he reciprocates. He certainly barely trusts most of them, he didn't even tell them about the Warp or Webway Gates, which all his Praetorians know about.

The Custodians, on the other hand, were hand-picked. People he personally raised in effect or already knew and thought they'd make a good addition. The people he specifically selected to surround him at all times. More akin to friends and companions than distant adopted sons. He was ready to sacrifice their lives for the 'Greater Good', but you get a sense of genuine regret and loss from him in doing so. Horus and Co? Their betrayal is more of a general irritation than an emotional blow.

Russ mentions favourites to irritate ElJonson in his novel in the Legends of the Heresy series. He doesn't mention his own feelings on the matter but he points out that Sanguinius, Horus and Guiliman are definitely the favourite Primarchs - you can probably read into that as much or as little as you care to.

 Ketara wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think he really is attached to the Custodians though- hes explicitly crafted them to be immortal (unlike the the very much only theoretically and probably not immortal Astartes), and educated in such a way as to provide conversation and debate woth him, since they are his constant companions.

I think the tone that supposed to be established is one like wjere the emperor is like Alexander the great, and his elite unit of the custodians as the Hetairoi-“ the compaions”- who were the best trained and educated of the Macedonian nobility, and where most of Alexanders actual friends and “near equals” would have come from.

I like that comparison.

At the end of the day, his 'sons' are his lab rats. Some of them turned out well, others not so much. He probably has a varying level of attachment depending upon the son. I think for the majority though, it's a deeply resounding 'Meh', which is often mirrored in some cases. Look, for example, at Khan or Alpharius. Nothing wrong with them so much as people pre-heresy, they're not like Curze or Angron or the destroyed two, but both appear ambivalent towards Daddy and I would expect he reciprocates. He certainly barely trusts most of them, he didn't even tell them about the Warp or Webway Gates, which all his Praetorians know about.

The Custodians, on the other hand, were hand-picked. People he personally raised in effect or already knew and thought they'd make a good addition. The people he specifically selected to surround him at all times. More akin to friends and companions than distant adopted sons. He was ready to sacrifice their lives for the 'Greater Good', but you get a sense of genuine regret and loss from him in doing so. Horus and Co? Their betrayal is more of a general irritation than an emotional blow.

This interpretation seems accurate. Keep in mind that he built his primarchs, so he may consider them to be more expendable because if he loses them he can just create them again. The Custodes were people, so he may consider them to be more "real" than his other sons.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

This interpretation seems accurate. Keep in mind that he built his primarchs, so he may consider them to be more expendable because if he loses them he can just create them again. The Custodes were people, so he may consider them to be more "real" than his other sons.

He did lose them, and his great crusade involved finding them... making them sound like their from a production line or 'expendable' to such a degree doesn't fit the lore at all.

The custodes have their own purpose, which is to serve as his personal body guard, so obviously they would have to be liked and trusted, that's logical.

His sons however, were scattered from him, he had to meet them when they had grown without him, the relations with each would be different as his feelings for them, but even Hours pained him, so IDK why people discard it all as a mere annoyance for the Emperor, it wasn't.

Thunder Warriors were unstable. When they had their work done Emperor discarded them (by The Outcast Dead, survivor Thunder Warrior). Custodians are made to be stable.

I thought the Sensei were his actual sons. The primarchs are science experiments, not his sons.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

This interpretation seems accurate. Keep in mind that he built his primarchs, so he may consider them to be more expendable because if he loses them he can just create them again. The Custodes were people, so he may consider them to be more "real" than his other sons.

He did lose them, and his great crusade involved finding them... making them sound like their from a production line or 'expendable' to such a degree doesn't fit the lore at all.

The custodes have their own purpose, which is to serve as his personal body guard, so obviously they would have to be liked and trusted, that's logical.

His sons however, were scattered from him, he had to meet them when they had grown without him, the relations with each would be different as his feelings for them, but even Hours pained him, so IDK why people discard it all as a mere annoyance for the Emperor, it wasn't.

Not to mention, by all accounts the Emperor darn near let himself be killed before finally destroying Horus. You don't do that for just a tool.

 Frazzled wrote:
I thought the Sensei were his actual sons. The primarchs are science experiments, not his sons.

They were, but I think they've been retconned, unfortunately