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So my copy of False Gods just came in the mail, and as I read chapter one, there is a scene with a couple of officers on the titan Dies Irae. One of them is blathering about the god-emperor, and the other is sensibly pointing out that that could get him in trouble. And besides, the emprah himself said he is no god.

Says the god-botherer,
"Only the truly divine would deny their divinity"

...is it just me or is that totally a monty python reference?

It very well could be. 40k is basically the greatest repository of popular culture tropes and references ever organized into its own IP, so it wouldn't surprise me if they referenced basically anything.

 Luciferian wrote:
It very well could be. 40k is basically the greatest repository of popular culture tropes and references ever organized into its own IP, so it wouldn't surprise me if they referenced basically anything.

Yeah that's what I thought. That particularl line is lifted almost entirely from "Life of Brian", where Brian exasperatedly claims he is *not* the messiah, only to have the zealot pestering him claim "Only the true messiah would deny his divinity!"

[When the God Emperor comes back to life]

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

So my copy of False Gods just came in the mail, and as I read chapter one, there is a scene with a couple of officers on the titan Dies Irae. One of them is blathering about the god-emperor, and the other is sensibly pointing out that that could get him in trouble. And besides, the emprah himself said he is no god.

Says the god-botherer,
"Only the truly divine would deny their divinity"

...is it just me or is that totally a monty python reference?

Ha it very well may be, though since I take the 40k literature way more seriously than I should, I would never have picked that up.

Good book by the way.

Ha it very well may be, though since I take the 40k literature way more seriously than I should, I would never have picked that up.

Good book by the way.

I'm halfway through it. I'm liking it so far, but I feel like the overall writing, the prose, the grasp of the characters, consistency and technical writing is noticeably inferior to Dan Abnett's Horus Rising. Eufrati Keeler, who was a haunted, interesting character in the first book, is so far a one dimensional zealot, and I'm really weirded out by how easily everyone just starts praying to the emperor the moment horus falls over. Like... whatever happened to your secular dogmas, guys? The ones the emperor drilled into your heads with thorough propaganda?
On the whole though it's good, although somewhat spoilt by the obvious foreshadowing and, well... the foregone conclusion of what will happen.

I really enjoy the look into Horus' psyche though, his frustrations and misgivings, and the look into the imperium and the seeds of fanaticism predating the heresy.

I think when their entire existence is shattered like that, the idea is most of them were already suppressing belief in the Emperor as a deity, so it was a pretty easy push. When the Legions who pushed for secular truth turned out to be traitors, why believe anymore in what message they were trying to spread?

 Rippy wrote:
I think when their entire existence is shattered like that, the idea is most of them were already suppressing belief in the Emperor as a deity, so it was a pretty easy push. When the Legions who pushed for secular truth turned out to be traitors, why believe anymore in what message they were trying to spread?

At this point, there is a ways to go before any of the legions have turned traitor. At this point all that's happened is that Horus has been mortally wounded, and suddenly everyone is praying to the emperor and stuff.

Like... religion is actively suppressed. It's *illegal* to be religious. The emprah is pretty damn firm on that point.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think when their entire existence is shattered like that, the idea is most of them were already suppressing belief in the Emperor as a deity, so it was a pretty easy push. When the Legions who pushed for secular truth turned out to be traitors, why believe anymore in what message they were trying to spread?

At this point, there is a ways to go before any of the legions have turned traitor. At this point all that's happened is that Horus has been mortally wounded, and suddenly everyone is praying to the emperor and stuff.

Like... religion is actively suppressed. It's *illegal* to be religious. The emprah is pretty damn firm on that point.

Yeah sorry, you are right, my point stands though I guess, their existence is shattered, Horus the invincible has fallen, a mortal wound for the immortal. Pretty easy push I think.

God Emperor Brian- yes, that is a truly genius idea!

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think when their entire existence is shattered like that, the idea is most of them were already suppressing belief in the Emperor as a deity, so it was a pretty easy push. When the Legions who pushed for secular truth turned out to be traitors, why believe anymore in what message they were trying to spread?

At this point, there is a ways to go before any of the legions have turned traitor. At this point all that's happened is that Horus has been mortally wounded, and suddenly everyone is praying to the emperor and stuff.

Like... religion is actively suppressed. It's *illegal* to be religious. The emprah is pretty damn firm on that point.

plenty of things are illegal and actively supressed but still popular and spread anyway. christianity was illegal during it's early years too for example

BrianDavion wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think when their entire existence is shattered like that, the idea is most of them were already suppressing belief in the Emperor as a deity, so it was a pretty easy push. When the Legions who pushed for secular truth turned out to be traitors, why believe anymore in what message they were trying to spread?

At this point, there is a ways to go before any of the legions have turned traitor. At this point all that's happened is that Horus has been mortally wounded, and suddenly everyone is praying to the emperor and stuff.

Like... religion is actively suppressed. It's *illegal* to be religious. The emprah is pretty damn firm on that point.

plenty of things are illegal and actively supressed but still popular and spread anyway. christianity was illegal during it's early years too for example

I am not sure what your point is, though there are many actively religious people during the crusade who hid their faith. This is different than suppressing their beliefs/faith.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Ha it very well may be, though since I take the 40k literature way more seriously than I should, I would never have picked that up.

Good book by the way.

I'm halfway through it. I'm liking it so far, but I feel like the overall writing, the prose, the grasp of the characters, consistency and technical writing is noticeably inferior to Dan Abnett's Horus Rising. Eufrati Keeler, who was a haunted, interesting character in the first book, is so far a one dimensional zealot, and I'm really weirded out by how easily everyone just starts praying to the emperor the moment horus falls over. Like... whatever happened to your secular dogmas, guys? The ones the emperor drilled into your heads with thorough propaganda?
On the whole though it's good, although somewhat spoilt by the obvious foreshadowing and, well... the foregone conclusion of what will happen.

I really enjoy the look into Horus' psyche though, his frustrations and misgivings, and the look into the imperium and the seeds of fanaticism predating the heresy.

Wait til you get to Galaxy in Flames and Flight of the Eisenstein. They really drive everything home.

Everyone, RE: illegality, religion.

The issue is that they already HAVE a religion- or rather, a substitute. The emperor's secular dogma, his idea of enlightenment and all that stuff, which Horus Rising made a well and proper point of showing as being driven home by orators and suchlike propagandists. You don't have to have religious faith to have the same phenomena and structures as religion- soviet russia under stalin, for example, was staunchly anti-religious but still created propaganda and a cult of personality around stalin that effectively became a religion of its own.

This is why it doesn't make sense to me. They already have the imperial creed stuffed down their throats, as a dogmatic set of beliefs that aren't allowed to be questioned, and *suddenly* out of nowhere, people are just defying it. This is the sort of thing that could make sense if it was elaborated upon more (is Keeler's religious cult just a vocal minority with little to no influence, exploiting a troubled situation? That would make sense to me) but the book doesn't really clarify it.

I feel like while worship of the emperor would probably happen, it'd probably be more like north korea/soviet's worship of The Great Leader rather than overtly religious faith. That's the thing- they already have a religion.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Everyone, RE: illegality, religion.

The issue is that they already HAVE a religion- or rather, a substitute. The emperor's secular dogma, his idea of enlightenment and all that stuff, which Horus Rising made a well and proper point of showing as being driven home by orators and suchlike propagandists. You don't have to have religious faith to have the same phenomena and structures as religion- soviet russia under stalin, for example, was staunchly anti-religious but still created propaganda and a cult of personality around stalin that effectively became a religion of its own.

This is why it doesn't make sense to me. They already have the imperial creed stuffed down their throats, as a dogmatic set of beliefs that aren't allowed to be questioned, and *suddenly* out of nowhere, people are just defying it. This is the sort of thing that could make sense if it was elaborated upon more (is Keeler's religious cult just a vocal minority with little to no influence, exploiting a troubled situation? That would make sense to me) but the book doesn't really clarify it.

I feel like while worship of the emperor would probably happen, it'd probably be more like north korea/soviet's worship of The Great Leader rather than overtly religious faith. That's the thing- they already have a religion.

that mighta been the case the problem is that you actively had someone, someone POWERFUL, spreading the religion (Lorgar) using soviet russia as an example, they couldn't stamp out religion. a majority of russians are religious to this day

The Black templars had the "holy orb of antioch" with a fuse of a set duration, not more, not less.

It's not the first python reference in the fluff, and it won't be the last.

that mighta been the case the problem is that you actively had someone, someone POWERFUL, spreading the religion (Lorgar) using soviet russia as an example, they couldn't stamp out religion. a majority of russians are religious to this day

Lorgar still couldn't openly spread religiosity or faith in the god-emperor, because that would go directly against his father's wishes and empy would have none of that. Any such cults would have to be real covert. Given that we already have a dogmatic set of beliefs, the whole situation feels off.
And sure Russia is more religious today, decades after communism died, but during soviet rule it was suppressed and replaced with communist propaganda. That's my point, when you already have a secular religion in place, with a Great Leader (with actual superpowers), why would such a religious cult gain so much traction so quickly?

You underestimate faith and the way it spreads, also mob mentatlity. The instant a dogma is relaxed people jump.

The entire fleet revolved around the invincible warmaster Horus. It's a few hours of doubt and fear. All it takes is one person to move and everyone follows.

Time is a bit dodgy but I had the distinct impression Horus was inside for a few days at least.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

that mighta been the case the problem is that you actively had someone, someone POWERFUL, spreading the religion (Lorgar) using soviet russia as an example, they couldn't stamp out religion. a majority of russians are religious to this day

Lorgar still couldn't openly spread religiosity or faith in the god-emperor, because that would go directly against his father's wishes and empy would have none of that. Any such cults would have to be real covert. Given that we already have a dogmatic set of beliefs, the whole situation feels off.

Keep reading the Heresy series.

40k novels are much more fun to read if you picture the narrator as being insincere and deeply sarcastic. It feels like the authors are routinely making fun of the dramatis personae.

Except for ADB. His writing does not translate into irreverent, it's too good.

I'm liking it so far, but I feel like the overall writing, the prose, the grasp of the characters, consistency and technical writing is noticeably inferior to Dan Abnett's Horus Rising. Eufrati Keeler, who was a haunted, interesting character in the first book, is so far a one dimensional zealot

I think of the two books as completely separate stories. I don't think there is any reason to pretend that there is continuity between them just because they have the same brand on the cover. The Keeler, Loken, and Aximand written by Abnett would have been a completely different False Gods. I read Horus Rising, but it down, and just knew that the story was as over as if the author had died. I definitely never had a thought of reading the next books, because really they can't give a convincing account of what happened to the characters from Horus Rising.

I like Graham McNeil, I have read a couple of his books on purpose, because he wrote them. I just think that reading the whole trilogy would be a mistake. I like the books because they use the setting well to tell a story like about Loken making friends and Karkasy being drunk. I think reading all the books together would make it into learning about the setting, which is empty because sourcebooks like codex imperialis or the editions' rule books are a way more interesting format if all you want is background.

I think of the two books as completely separate stories. I don't think there is any reason to pretend that there is continuity between them just because they have the same brand on the cover. The Keeler, Loken, and Aximand written by Abnett would have been a completely different False Gods. I read Horus Rising, but it down, and just knew that the story was as over as if the author had died. I definitely never had a thought of reading the next books, because really they can't give a convincing account of what happened to the characters from Horus Rising.

I like Graham McNeil, I have read a couple of his books on purpose, because he wrote them. I just think that reading the whole trilogy would be a mistake. I like the books because they use the setting well to tell a story like about Loken making friends and Karkasy being drunk. I think reading all the books together would make it into learning about the setting, which is empty because sourcebooks like codex imperialis or the editions' rule books are a way more interesting format if all you want is background.

Well, the book isn't bad by any means- I'm about two thirds in now and it's definitely passable. It's just that it sort of lacks that extra bit, the magic that made Horus Rising work so well, and I really wish they had just got Abnett to do the whole trilogy. At least tell me none of the books are written by CS "research is something that happens to other people" Goto...

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Everyone, RE: illegality, religion.

The issue is that they already HAVE a religion- or rather, a substitute. The emperor's secular dogma, his idea of enlightenment and all that stuff, which Horus Rising made a well and proper point of showing as being driven home by orators and suchlike propagandists. You don't have to have religious faith to have the same phenomena and structures as religion- soviet russia under stalin, for example, was staunchly anti-religious but still created propaganda and a cult of personality around stalin that effectively became a religion of its own.

Yet even in the USSR people started praying to God en masse as soon as the Nazi's came knocking, leaving Stalin with no choice but to re-establish the Orthodox Church. It is natural for people to turn to religion in times of great stress, it is human nature to do so.

Yet even in the USSR people started praying to God en masse as soon as the Nazi's came knocking, leaving Stalin with no choice but to re-establish the Orthodox Church. It is natural for people to turn to religion in times of great stress, it is human nature to do so.

That argument is flawed, as Russia was only barely outside of a period- centuries long- wherein christianity was the dominant culture and religion. If you were a soviet citizen at that time, then you would most likely have grown up christian (unless you were young; the revolution in which the soviets took power took place in 1917, a difference of a mere 24 years). Your fathers and mothers were christians; it would have been the religion of your grandparents and theirs before them. That they turn to religion in a time of crisis, when this is already an established religion with deep cultural roots is a weak argument, as the case is the direct opposite in False Gods- a young religion, poorly spread and new, lacking any central structure and dogma.

Again, my issue isn't that they turn to religion, it's that they alread have one. The emperor's secular truth. As any non-theistic authoritarian dictatorship could show you, the ideal of The Great Leader etc is plenty religious in and of itself.