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 Yarium wrote:
I don't get what the hub-bub is about Space Marines not being women. The way I see it, once you undergo all the surgeries and gene-editing, you're a Space Marine. These new ones could be both men an women, but once inside the armour you wouldn't be able to tell them apart like that.

As such, it'd be like Sigmarines, where they say that there are both men and women, but the changes done to them make them beyond each.

Actually...





This is a typical and totally normal miss conception, if you don't follow the lore of AoS. Stormcast Eternal are magical empowered humans, but humans afterall. Much more than Space Marines.
Personally, I prefer it this way. The "They are woman inside that totally-male shape armour!" is pretty boring. They have done a good job doing a reasonable female armour, very bulky, without the typical boob-shape in the armour. (You know, like they do two balls. Here it jus has space)

GodDamUser wrote:
I want openly gay spacemarines

They already do.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors
Ultrasmurf showgirls.

I think they did a decent job with the female Stormcast. My understanding is that with IRL breastplates most women need little, if any, extra accommodation. That might be mostly with late Medieval/Renaissance era European breastplates, though, which curve away from the body. A lot of sci-fi breastplates lay flatter across the chest so I could see it being more plausible that some women might require more room.

I agree that it's better they went with the "extra-room" implementation rather than the "two balls tacked on" implementation.

Youtube skallagrim female body armour.
You might find it amusing and a bit surprising in regards to the breastplate.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think they did a decent job with the female Stormcast. My understanding is that with IRL breastplates most women need little, if any, extra accommodation. That might be mostly with late Medieval/Renaissance era European breastplates, though, which curve away from the body. A lot of sci-fi breastplates lay flatter across the chest so I could see it being more plausible that some women might require more room.

I agree that it's better they went with the "extra-room" implementation rather than the "two balls tacked on" implementation.

You are right, normally womens don't need space. But just like the normal male Stormcast Eternal armour don't need those pectorals. They are going with the late-roman Empire, Greek/Macedonian aesthetic with the Stormcast Eternals. Just like the Sanguinar Guard of the Blood Angels having nipples, is just ornament, I don't think is for practical reasons.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Youtube skallagrim female body armour.
You might find it amusing and a bit surprising in regards to the breastplate.

Were you thinking of the Metatron video? I didn't think that Skallagrim had done one, but he's made so many that I can't keep track.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
You are right, normally womens don't need space. But just like the normal male Stormcast Eternal armour don't need those pectorals. They are going with the late-roman Empire, Greek/Macedonian aesthetic with the Stormcast Eternals. Just like the Sanguinar Guard of the Blood Angels having nipples, is just ornament, I don't think is for practical reasons.

I hadn't looked too closely at the male Stormcast models, but it looks like you're right.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Youtube skallagrim female body armour.
You might find it amusing and a bit surprising in regards to the breastplate.

Were you thinking of the Metatron video? I didn't think that Skallagrim had done one, but he's made so many that I can't keep track.

Love Metatron's accent, haven't seen his take on the subject. Wish I had more data on my phone.

HexHammer wrote:
I foresee that there will come female space marines with the end times. That the Emperor finally have figured out how to make them and Rowboat will execute the vision that he was given when meeting with his father.

(GW smelled the coffee at long last and found a pretext how to implement females to the chapters)

The God Emperor specifically didn't make female Primarchs or Marines because he didn't want them breeding. Not only would this be completely against his wishes, it would be against everything the Emperor ever stood for as it would create a replacement of humanity.

Nevermind that female marines is a terrible idea and will not only cause major fan backlash.

 Galas wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think they did a decent job with the female Stormcast. My understanding is that with IRL breastplates most women need little, if any, extra accommodation. That might be mostly with late Medieval/Renaissance era European breastplates, though, which curve away from the body. A lot of sci-fi breastplates lay flatter across the chest so I could see it being more plausible that some women might require more room.

I agree that it's better they went with the "extra-room" implementation rather than the "two balls tacked on" implementation.

You are right, normally womens don't need space. But just like the normal male Stormcast Eternal armour don't need those pectorals. They are going with the late-roman Empire, Greek/Macedonian aesthetic with the Stormcast Eternals. Just like the Sanguinar Guard of the Blood Angels having nipples, is just ornament, I don't think is for practical reasons.

Spoiler:

Romans never wore muscle-plate. "Late Roman" armor is a maille hauberk.

...How does the op have a 8 year old account with their 1st post in 2014?

 Yarium wrote:
I don't get what the hub-bub is about Space Marines not being women. The way I see it, once you undergo all the surgeries and gene-editing, you're a Space Marine. These new ones could be both men an women, but once inside the armour you wouldn't be able to tell them apart like that.

As such, it'd be like Sigmarines, where they say that there are both men and women, but the changes done to them make them beyond each.

As long as we get male Sisters Of Battle.

Forgot his password and only recently cared enough to chase it down?

Why stop here guys, what if the only way to save the Emperor is to give him gender reassignment surgery and allow his body to match the woman he really was inside for those tens of thousands of years?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Romans never wore muscle-plate. "Late Roman" armor is a maille hauberk.

Romans used muscle cuirass as symbol of status and rank, for emperors, legates etc. Though to what degree they were used in real life is debatable. They've seen plenty in statues:


I've seen speculated that Roman "muscle cuirass" was actually shaped leather, and mostly for show.

I'm cool with new plastic sisters and new female plastic imperial guard and honestly I don't care if they make female space marines. However the reason why I say no to female marines is because the people who complain and say 40k is sexist are people who are just looking to complain and start crap. There's no reason to listen to them because most likely they don't play the game or have any interest in the hobby at all. And even if you catered to them they'll just find something else to complain about.
A good example would be Marvel's comic book industry. They tried to cater to the diversity crowd and there sales have dropped. Marvel mentioned this and now they're getting crapped on for saying it's not getting them any new fans by the same professional complainers who don't read there comics anyway.

TL;DR cater to what you fan base wants not to people who don't give a hoot about you.

Backfire wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Romans never wore muscle-plate. "Late Roman" armor is a maille hauberk.

Romans used muscle cuirass as symbol of status and rank, for emperors, legates etc. Though to what degree they were used in real life is debatable. They've seen plenty in statues:


I've seen speculated that Roman "muscle cuirass" was actually shaped leather, and mostly for show.

Exactly, and it almost certainly was not armor used in war except by high-status individuals. It's an artist article of clothing, not true armor.

(Especially not when Segmentata is also available, and vastly more protective)

For too long wargaming, and Games Workshop in particular, has been a boys-only club. The material was designed and marketed in ways that targeted only boys and it shows in the diversity present in most gaming stores. The image of the stereotypical gamer as a man with no social skills and raging misogynistic tendencies is one that we have to fight off constantly and one that pushes many people (both men and women) away from the hobby. A desire for a more diverse playerbase makes sense because it means a larger playerbase (females do make up ~50% of the population), but in order to achieve that there need to be some alterations to make them welcome, such as the production of more female models.

As the current posterboys of the hobby and the army that is most supported, Space Marines just catch the most flack from people that desire this diversity. Most of the xenos are designed such that it would make no sense to include overtly female models as Orks are asexual and Tau have no recognisable sexual differences. Within the Imperium however, there is a glaring lack of representation with next to no female models outside of a very limited Sisters of Silence range. The Space Marines are currently the epitome of this percieved sexism as they are presented as being the best of the best and an in-universe boys-only exclusive club while being the most supported faction with the most lore written about them. These ranges make it clear that GW is and intends to remain the boys-only club and pushes people towards hobbies with better representation. For this reason, people latch onto the female Space Marine idea as a way of attacking the single biggest source of the problem. I believe that if GW actually bothered to make their guard and AdMech ranges more diverse and representative, they could do real work in overturning the assumptions about the hobby. After these changes, and if the new female models are actually supported in models and fluff, then people will stop caring as much about there being a canonical male-only faction within the universe as there would be other avenues into the hobby.

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
A good example would be Marvel's comic book industry. They tried to cater to the diversity crowd and there sales have dropped. Marvel mentioned this and now they're getting crapped on for saying it's not getting them any new fans by the same professional complainers who don't read there comics anyway.

TL;DR cater to what you fan base wants not to people who don't give a hoot about you.

That is total hogwash (whatever that expression means) and has been called that by writers within and outside of Marvel. The Marvel comics are suffering because they constantly churn out reboots and deboots of the same tired old characters. There is increased competition in terms of pricing from DC and other companies compared to Marvel's static prices. People are also dissatisfied with the mindbogglingly dumb Secret Empire arc for Cap'. This has nothing to do with any perceived catering to diversity, and indeed Ms. Marvel, a female Muslim superhero, continues to enjoy good sales numbers.

Urgh this again? Female marines won't bring In girl gamers just like going full on feminist didn't get marvel more female readers.

Women like co-op games not competitive games as a general rule.

What such blatant lore disrespect will do is anger existing customers, going sjw never works it just ticks people off like with ghostbusters 2016.

Even if they pulled out their finger and did plastic sisters it'd still be guys playing that army.

The sexes like different hobbies and that's fine stop trying to force this needless merging that the vast majority don't care one iota about.

Let it happen organically or not at all.

I don't know why Gulliman would chose the genetically weaker sex to super enhance, but hey, I am not a Primarch so who knows his logic.

 the Signless wrote:

That is total hogwash (whatever that expression means) and has been called that by writers within and outside of Marvel. The Marvel comics are suffering because they constantly churn out reboots and deboots of the same tired old characters. There is increased competition in terms of pricing from DC and other companies compared to Marvel's static prices. People are also dissatisfied with the mindbogglingly dumb Secret Empire arc for Cap'. This has nothing to do with any perceived catering to diversity, and indeed Ms. Marvel, a female Muslim superhero, continues to enjoy good sales numbers.

Diversity, like anything, is just one tool in storytelling which can be used well or poorly. If you look at Claremont's X-Men, it could be said to be forced diversity and tokenism at its worst: characters include Russian, mixed race African, German, Japanese, Native American, Canadian and Irish. And led by white American male - of course. Yet it became one of the biggest successes of the comic world because characters were well made, had distinct personalities, histories and abilities. Like in well made sitcom, one doesn't always even need a plot or setting, mere character interaction was often enough to carry the story. Also it made sense that Xavier would discover mutants around the world. Why would all the heroic mutants be American?
When I read the original X-Men, it felt boring as heck. Everyone was white American teenager with similar personalities. New X-Men were just so much more exotic.

 the Signless wrote:

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
A good example would be Marvel's comic book industry. They tried to cater to the diversity crowd and there sales have dropped. Marvel mentioned this and now they're getting crapped on for saying it's not getting them any new fans by the same professional complainers who don't read there comics anyway.

TL;DR cater to what you fan base wants not to people who don't give a hoot about you.

That is total hogwash (whatever that expression means) and has been called that by writers within and outside of Marvel. The Marvel comics are suffering because they constantly churn out reboots and deboots of the same tired old characters. There is increased competition in terms of pricing from DC and other companies compared to Marvel's static prices. People are also dissatisfied with the mindbogglingly dumb Secret Empire arc for Cap'. This has nothing to do with any perceived catering to diversity, and indeed Ms. Marvel, a female Muslim superhero, continues to enjoy good sales numbers.

Well the way I look at it there's 2 sides to this argument. On one side you have the writers concerned about their jobs which is understandable. On the other you have the corporate head who's only concerned about the bottom line. Between those 2 when it comes to a company's profitability I'll side with the corporate head.

 Yarium wrote:
I don't get what the hub-bub is about Space Marines not being women. The way I see it, once you undergo all the surgeries and gene-editing, you're a Space Marine. These new ones could be both men an women, but once inside the armour you wouldn't be able to tell them apart like that.

As such, it'd be like Sigmarines, where they say that there are both men and women, but the changes done to them make them beyond each.

This is generally where the argument winds up with me, how exactly are you going to tell that the 28mm miniature of someone encased in inches of power armor was female before being genetically modified to the point they may now have as much resemblance to their primarch as they would have their parents. The only option I generally see presented is giant tits. Which seems counter productive to me most of the time.

That said, the sigmarine did this relatively well compared to most of the conversions I've ever seen. Though just to annoy people I've been seriously considering painting up the raging heroes sisters as dark angels and just playing up the unforgiven aspect as having an entirely different reason.

Frankly what the game needs to appeal to different people is something other than more marines, give some of those other factions some love and perhaps folks who want something other than being superhuman space knights may take some interest. I had a room full of people interested back when the sisters rumor was floating around, and then it came out to be three pieces. Oddly enough no one was real happy about that.

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:

 the Signless wrote:

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
A good example would be Marvel's comic book industry. They tried to cater to the diversity crowd and there sales have dropped. Marvel mentioned this and now they're getting crapped on for saying it's not getting them any new fans by the same professional complainers who don't read there comics anyway.

TL;DR cater to what you fan base wants not to people who don't give a hoot about you.

That is total hogwash (whatever that expression means) and has been called that by writers within and outside of Marvel. The Marvel comics are suffering because they constantly churn out reboots and deboots of the same tired old characters. There is increased competition in terms of pricing from DC and other companies compared to Marvel's static prices. People are also dissatisfied with the mindbogglingly dumb Secret Empire arc for Cap'. This has nothing to do with any perceived catering to diversity, and indeed Ms. Marvel, a female Muslim superhero, continues to enjoy good sales numbers.

Well the way I look at it there's 2 sides to this argument. On one side you have the writers concerned about their jobs which is understandable. On the other you have the corporate head who's only concerned about the bottom line. Between those 2 when it comes to a company's profitability I'll side with the corporate head.

Why would you side with the corporate head when they announce they have figured out the reason for their problem, then they continue to have the same problem? It would be like if GW announced the reason for 7th failing was the lack of marshmallow flavoured figurines and just saying "yup, sounds about right."

A lot of the industries that used to be marketed at only men are experiencing growing pains as they are forced to deal with a world where women and men are equally represented. How well companies survive depends on whether they can adapt to these changing conditions. That is one of the reasons why some games, like Overwatch, that work to make sure that they are not viewed as boys-only have become such sensations while games that are sticking to their guns are slowly falling to the wayside. Games Workshop needs to begin including some changes in its lines and fiction or else it will lose its place at the top of the wargaming world to some upstart that actually tries to target people besides men.

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
I would rather not. If GW truly wants to deal with the 'sexism' part of 40k, turn to Guard. Or better yet, Sisters.

SM are male. End of story. I could see that they could do it with this whole new project, but I'd not like it. SM are male. SoB are female. Guard are both (kind of)

Here is how I'd add more girls to the lot.

- Plastic sisters

- Female Guard

- Female Guard leaders (Emperor knows the Guard have a lack of heroes)

- Female Chaos Cultists

- Female Inquistionarial Agents (Tempestus, and such)

Orks are a fungi

Tau were body suits

Necrons are dead

Eldar were suits but perhaps could have more female. Same with DE and that new one

Nids are bugs

Lots of my old guardian type eldar seem to be mammary gland endowed ... Either that or gynomastia from too much bourbon. Then of course there are the banshees. And dark eldar are even more likely to be female.

Sjw's have made feminism toxic only 16% of American women and 7% of UK women use the term feminist to describe their stance even though 89% believe in equality.

When your audience is straight white boys and men and you turn around and blame them for everything of course they are going to stop buying your comics.

Same will happen to 40k if you suddenly try to force that rhetoric into it.

You don't have to force the rhetoric to include a female or two. You can just make it a design choice.

Personally couldn't really care less. Technically, GW could just retcon and say "the marines are made from both male and females. They're all hewn to the same form, though and are after treatment genderless."

It's a very interesting debate that goes to a very important issue: world-building. I think about this a lot in my own work (I'm an academic), and I think that the key issue is summarised well in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6MQHNM2yE

The issue old Nerdwriter1 is focusing on here concerns how 'literally' we should take world-building, and particularly focuses on how map-making attempts to make concrete what is ultimately and originally a creative act. As a creative act, there is some expectation that the audience will do some of the work in 'filling in the gaps' of an imaginary world. Writers are, after all, doing literature, not history. So no description should even try to be exhaustive. But map making enforces the burden of strict consistency on what was a world full of holes. And then, coupled with 'canon' art, models, and miniatures, all of a sudden everything in the world has a definite and canonical form. And then, all of a sudden, it's not about you engaging actively with the world, and filling it out in your imagination; instead, it's about you passively receiving a 'strict truth' that has already been spelled out by others. Now it's just history (and boring history at that, which itself is interesting because it still demands interpretation).

Nerwriter's point, and I agree, is that the joy of literature, and the joy of something like the Warhammer world, for me, is that it provides a firm (but not set) foundation for my imagination, but then my imagination can take me where I want to go. So, because I love ol' Papa Nurgle, but don't like the gross side, I have focused on mutation, kit-smashing possessed kits into normal marines to make my 'commanders'. So my background is that two evil sorcerers have contained the Nurgle diseases in Plague Marines (and soon Plague Terminators and the other soon-to-be released awesome models), while they have immunised other CSM form this, but have localised the mutation strain to 'grow' mutated warriors. Most end up as spawn, but they have had a success and 'grown' one CSM into a Daemon Prince. Following this success they are then confident that they can transform themselves into Daemon Princes with a bit more practice. Canon? Not on your life. But that's what got me back into the hobby after ten years.


So that is what I have to say to people who don't want female Space Marines. And one more thing. Imagine if a friend or play-mate, like me, got some Sisters of Battle Heads, stuck them on Space Marine bodies, and painted their army really well in a cool 'feminine' style, and then called them female Space Marines. Would you care? Would you refuse to play against them? Of course not! But given this, then you're not really against having female Space Marines, you just don't want GW to do it. But then you've fallen into the trap of over-literal world-building. If you don't want female Space Marines in your 40k universe - fine! Good luck to you! Don't build 'em. It's as much your universe as it is GW's. But some people might, and some, like me, may be gak at modelling, and want the amazing miniature builders at GW to give them what they want.

It is, after all, a game. But it isn't just a game. And no game worth its salt is just a game. The best games allow you to let your imagination run away with itself, and encourage you to express yourself onto the game. If you don't want that, play Monopoly.

 the Signless wrote:

Why would you side with the corporate head when they announce they have figured out the reason for their problem, then they continue to have the same problem? It would be like if GW announced the reason for 7th failing was the lack of marshmallow flavoured figurines and just saying "yup, sounds about right."

I'll side with the corporate head because they have access to the all numbers and can see where they are and are not making money. As for Marvel's problems still continuing well it hasn't even been a month since the announcement so it's going to take some time before they gather new data on the new direction they plan on going if they even are.And if people were complaining to GW about the lack of marshmallow flavored figurines and they decided to make them only to have their numbers continue to fall I'd say it's pretty obvious that not enough people want them to make them worth selling.

A lot of the industries that used to be marketed at only men are experiencing growing pains as they are forced to deal with a world where women and men are equally represented. How well companies survive depends on whether they can adapt to these changing conditions. That is one of the reasons why some games, like Overwatch, that work to make sure that they are not viewed as boys-only have become such sensations while games that are sticking to their guns are slowly falling to the wayside. Games Workshop needs to begin including some changes in its lines and fiction or else it will lose its place at the top of the wargaming world to some upstart that actually tries to target people besides men.

It wouldn't the end of the world or anything but I really hope they don't make girl marines.

The marines are supposed to be austere warrior brotherhoods much like the Teutonic Knights or the Hospitallers, adding women into the mix takes away from this imagery and puts me more in mind of Hammer Horror or Carry On Films!
I can see it now, 'Carry On Serving The Emperor' the female and male dorms of the Crimson Fist chapter have an Ork killing contest with the losers having to custard pie Pedro Kantor in the face!

Not to mention logical reasons for male only requirement like a genetic predisposition to increased muscle mass and aggression or that many chapter recruit from feral worlds where women fill traditional domestic roles.

If they want to increase female participation I would much prefer it if they just gave more book space to existing female characters and organisations rather than trying to shoehorn them into the Space marine background.
Although political correctness to this degree certainly does sound like the dark, dystopian future of the 40k setting...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:

 the Signless wrote:

Why would you side with the corporate head when they announce they have figured out the reason for their problem, then they continue to have the same problem? It would be like if GW announced the reason for 7th failing was the lack of marshmallow flavoured figurines and just saying "yup, sounds about right."

Sensual_T_Rex
I'll side with the corporate head because they have access to the all numbers and can see where they are and are not making money. As for Marvel's problems still continuing well it hasn't even been a month since the announcement so it's going to take some time before they gather new data on the new direction they plan on going if they even are.And if people were complaining to GW about the lack of marshmallow flavored figurines and they decided to make them only to have their numbers continue to fall I'd say it's pretty obvious that not enough people want them to make them worth selling.

A lot of the industries that used to be marketed at only men are experiencing growing pains as they are forced to deal with a world where women and men are equally represented. How well companies survive depends on whether they can adapt to these changing conditions. That is one of the reasons why some games, like Overwatch, that work to make sure that they are not viewed as boys-only have become such sensations while games that are sticking to their guns are slowly falling to the wayside. Games Workshop needs to begin including some changes in its lines and fiction or else it will lose its place at the top of the wargaming world to some upstart that actually tries to target people besides men.

Agreed a companies survival is based on their ability to anticipate what the consumers want. In GW case there's not much of a fan bases asking for female space marines. Are there some? Of course there are however if a not enough to warrant the investment necessary to turn a good profit. And on the subject of Overwatch it's still your standard online FPS with sexualized women who appeal to a predominantly male dominated fan base. You do remember the hub bub about Tracer showing off her butt and the "controversy " surrounding it.

 jeff white wrote:

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
I would rather not. If GW truly wants to deal with the 'sexism' part of 40k, turn to Guard. Or better yet, Sisters.

SM are male. End of story. I could see that they could do it with this whole new project, but I'd not like it. SM are male. SoB are female. Guard are both (kind of)

Here is how I'd add more girls to the lot.

- Plastic sisters

- Female Guard

- Female Guard leaders (Emperor knows the Guard have a lack of heroes)

- Female Chaos Cultists

- Female Inquistionarial Agents (Tempestus, and such)

Orks are a fungi

Tau were body suits

Necrons are dead

Eldar were suits but perhaps could have more female. Same with DE and that new one

Nids are bugs

Lots of my old guardian type eldar seem to be mammary gland endowed ... Either that or gynomastia from too much bourbon. Then of course there are the banshees. And dark eldar are even more likely to be female.

I added the word perhaps because I wasn't sure. I don't know the Eldar model line that well. If they are pretty balanced then ok. (Also why I put them in the section of guys that don't need much fixing)

As for Tempestus, they are mostly ok, but I meant more about the berets instesd of the helmets.

Finally, no female SM would not make the franchise double in size. I'd be suprised if there was a noticable increase in female players. When I saw the trailer for Alien Isolation, I didn't wait until my sex was represented. If there is a girl who seriously wants to play, she'll play. 40k is simply more popular towards guys and thus they'll market that way.

Let us saybthere was this secret oilfield of new customers that could be tapoed with femake SM, why wouldn't GW do it. They have professionals (or whatever the GW equilevent is) trying to find who their market is, they wouldn't give the fluff a single thought if they couod double their profits. They know there isn't and thats why they don't.