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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




TonyH122 wrote:
But given this, then you're not really against having female Space Marines, you just don't want GW to do it. But then you've fallen into the trap of over-literal world-building.

It is, after all, a game. But it isn't just a game. And no game worth its salt is just a game. The best games allow you to let your imagination run away with itself, and encourage you to express yourself onto the game. If you don't want that, play Monopoly.


And you can. You could make a chapter of tau space marines too. But neither of these things actually make sense in the world that has been built in the fiction. While this same fiction has intentionally built in leeway for us to be able to do whatever we want with our imagination by saying all or none of it could be true.

Frankly the implications of 40k are horrifying and intended to be so. It's intended to be oppressive. It's intended to be bigoted. It was intended to be a bit of parody of certain politics some time ago, only people found the world interesting and built from there. So the very basis of the world building and the story itself focusing on being among the worst possible futures having a gak load of bigoted stupidity only makes sense. With the story that was built out ages ago female marines don't make much sense. So people interested in it will object. Doesn't mean you can't do it, just means it doesn't make any sense in universe. Why should they break with that much story to satisfy a desire for something you can do yourself?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Kroem wrote:
If they want to increase female participation I would much prefer it if they just gave more book space to existing female characters and organisations rather than trying to shoehorn them into the Space marine background.
Although political correctness to this degree certainly does sound like the dark, dystopian future of the 40k setting...


Yeah. There's so much potential elsewhere to add female presence logically and without making fuss about it that changing existing background for it seems unneccessary.

"Okay let's make female space marines but ignore female IG troopers, storm troopers, etc etc etc"

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Unlike many games, GW's IPs' success is heavily influenced by the lore/fluff/background/world etc.

It would be silly to break or diminish your own fluff/lore to chase market margins by pandering to people.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

While I don't care for the idea of Female Space Marines as a thing I do see "New Marines" as a new IP for GW to do what ever they want. I think it will hurt Old Marines less over all but still hurt them from a fluff perspective. Leading to the but why does it work now and why didn't it work before and insert thing about the Emperor hating women or some silly stuff like that. Which I think is unnecessary.
If it happens it happens, they'll all get power klawed to deff anyway so it's whatever.
If GW does make them I just hope they do a better job on the models than they did with that oddly proportioned Female Stormcast miniature. It looks bad. It looks like two different miniatures stuck together.

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 warhead01 wrote:
but why does it work now and why didn't it work before


They have retconned FAR larger things than this.

 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




 Purifier wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
but why does it work now and why didn't it work before


They have retconned FAR larger things than this.


Such as. I came in later 7th so I wouldn't know. (Except Cadia, feth that)

"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us His greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day. " - Governor-Militant Lukas Alexander, Commander 1st Kronus Regiment 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Elbows wrote:Unlike many games, GW's IPs' success is heavily influenced by the lore/fluff/background/world etc.

It would be silly to break or diminish your own fluff/lore to chase market margins by pandering to people.


YeOldSaltPotato wrote:And you can. You could make a chapter of tau space marines too. But neither of these things actually make sense in the world that has been built in the fiction. While this same fiction has intentionally built in leeway for us to be able to do whatever we want with our imagination by saying all or none of it could be true.

Frankly the implications of 40k are horrifying and intended to be so. It's intended to be oppressive. It's intended to be bigoted. It was intended to be a bit of parody of certain politics some time ago, only people found the world interesting and built from there. So the very basis of the world building and the story itself focusing on being among the worst possible futures having a gak load of bigoted stupidity only makes sense. With the story that was built out ages ago female marines don't make much sense. So people interested in it will object. Doesn't mean you can't do it, just means it doesn't make any sense in universe. Why should they break with that much story to satisfy a desire for something you can do yourself?


I think you guys gotta take a step back. The whole thing about Space Marines only being male is practically a throw-away line in the story, and not something that the entire continuity hinges on. Not only that, but these New Marines are said to be, well, new. There's absolutely no reason, story-wise, that you couldn't say that Gulliman figured out that "Hey, we can have 102% more Space Marines if women can also be Space Marines.". In these situations where people say the story is important, you have to remember the prime lesson from this wonderfully hilarious youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM&t=1s

Person 1: "How do you kill a vampire in a story?"

Person 2: "Stake through the heart... garlic... sunlight..."

Person 1: "No. You kill a vampire however you like, because vampires don't exist."

There are a ton of stories that break traditions, because those traditions aren't very important. Is it important that Homer is balding? No. Aside from some jokes and one hilarious episode, his having or not having hair doesn't tell us anything about who Homer is. Space Marines being men doesn't tell us anything important about who Space Marines are. Contrarily, Homer being fat DOES tell us something important about Homer; he's lazy. When you look at Homer, you don't think "here's someone with a genetic disorder or propensity for obesity", you think "he's a lazy guy whom can't be bothered to fix himself up". Space Marines being genetically and physically superior beings to regular humans DOES tell us something important about them; they're beyond human. If they're beyond human, does that mean they are beyond gender? For me, it does, because Space Marines, to me, are sexless anyways. In my mind, they ain't got no wee wee, no funbags, no cojhones, and no uterus. It just isn't something that matters in what makes a Marine a Marine. While it may off-handly reference that they are all men, that means nothing for new Marines.

Also, remember that "canon" doesn't necessarily mean good. Ergo this, completely 100% canon...


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
 Purifier wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
but why does it work now and why didn't it work before


They have retconned FAR larger things than this.


Such as. I came in later 7th so I wouldn't know. (Except Cadia, feth that)


Necrons were just some models in 2nd edition. Then in some side game, they were presented as androids of Chaos. So Necron were in their first fluff Chaos. Then when they got their own army, they became a really cool force, led by the C'tan. But then, in fifth edition, they suddenly got all the current lore, basically making them undead. Or "Tomb Kings in Space" as a lot of people call them.

 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Eastern CT

I have a female friend who recently got into 40K when she spotted Codex: Space Wolves at GenCon last year. Though she geeked out at the army full of wolves, she was reported to have asked, "But where are the girls?" Granted, that is one anecdote, but it shows that this does happen.

I'm in the camp of those who thinks GW should introduce female Space Marines, but I acknowledge that would make a lot of current players' heads pop, and there's lower-hanging fruit as far as introducing more female presence into 40K goes. Plastic Sisters of Battle with a beefed up role in the Imperium's defense, IG, Eldar, Tau, Mechanicus, Inquisition. That would let GW test the waters before they go monkeying with their best-selling product line.

Also, women could be introduced into Space Marine armies without breaching the female Space Marine barrier. Chapters could start tasking some roles to chapter serfs to free up Space Marines for service in the battle companies. Vehicle crews stand out as something serfs could do, particularly any Rhino-chassis vehicles. Some chapter serfs are probably female, so you could have female non-Space Marines tied to Space Marine chapters serving as vehicle crew. That might get the community more comfortable with the idea of women serving in Space Marine chapters before GW makes the female Space Marine leap.

Check out my brand new 40K/gaming blog: Crafting Cave Games 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

I wasn't asking why, it's an example of the things I expect to hear and read on the internet.


Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Yarium wrote:
I think you guys gotta take a step back. The whole thing about Space Marines only being male is practically a throw-away line in the story, and not something that the entire continuity hinges on.


Except the entire story is about a lousy father and the horrific failures of his flawed sons, now the grandsons are trying to hold things together without even understanding the original point. It's a nearly standard story of kings and falling empires wrapped up in some ceramite and chainswords. It's as much about a really shity father son relationship as it is much of everything else, and that relationship echos down to the relationship between the lost primarchs and the spacemarines.

Not only that, but these New Marines are said to be, well, new. There's absolutely no reason, story-wise, that you couldn't say that Gulliman figured out that "Hey, we can have 102% more Space Marines if women can also be Space Marines.".


I legitimately have less problem with nu-marines being female than I would "oh they've just been there the entire time", it's an evolution of story rather than a cramming of someone's to do list. Except unless they're rolling back some of what's done to space marines in the process I do NOT envy GW's social media people when the wrong person grasps what's being done to pre-pubecent girls.

With Gulliman back things may very well change, but they should be changes detailed in story not changes in the background. But frankly his outlook on things hardly looks like roses so I don't see things getting much better in many senses any time soon.

It's not a matter of tradition in this case, or some vague shared cannon. It's a matter of this story has been told for years one way, it's been expanded to what, hundreds of novels now? Nothing has stopped female guardsman, eldar, or any of a number of other races from being prominent. If there was a female space marine it'd probably have come up by now, except every time the creation of space marines comes up(and if you've bought into the RPGs or some old white dwarfs they've nailed this one down pretty heavy) it's young boys. It hasn't been a throwaway line in a long time, it's baked into the setting at this point, without changing the process you aren't going change the story.

And let's be honest, if you're using squirrel girl as your example she's clearly a tool of tzeentch that must be purged. She's the living embodiment of writer's caveat at the cost of logic or reason. It's funny and occasionally interesting, but if you take any of it seriously people will lose their damn minds, like the comic nerds who hate her with a passion. Comics are not where I'm taking my idea of cohesive story telling from.

And again, none of this stops you from tossing a couple heads on and saying 'deal' when you're on the table. If I find some black widow shoulder pads I'll probably do it the marines I got in a the kill team box, but I can say damn well it just doesn't make sense in the story, which is itself rather gendered even if the marines themselves aren't to you. It's a stereotypical poor father soon relationships embodied in different aspects across twenty sons and then repeated with thousands more with their marines more often than not. That's part of what makes it interesting to me, watching this near god have such basic human failings is why I read the heresy books at this point.

With the story being what it is, it doesn't make sense from a story telling or logical perspective. It adds little and even assuming they did all that would really change would be naming conventions and possibly the use of brother between marines, if even they could tell the difference anymore. And yes, people take this seriously, that's kind of my point despite not really caring what people do with their armies and even plotting to do so myself.
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
It's a matter of this story has been told for years one way, it's been expanded to what, hundreds of novels now?

Yeah, many of which are hugely contradictory. The 40k universe is hardly a rigid and well thought out plot line. It has always been retconned and there is inevitably going to be a lot of things that are contradictory when that many writers write that many books in the same story. So what's the big deal if a little bit more is retconned?

 
   
Made in se
Sinister Chaos Marine





Sweden

Saying diversity is the reason overwatch is successful is lying to themselves, Battleborn is just as diverse and it's not doing great. If the game is fun people will play it regardless.

If people aren't into the game now adding diversity won't change it
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Space Marines exist to do one thing; wield the utmost physical and martial might that human kind can muster to kill gak for the Emperor. That's it. It's the reason behind their genetic modifications, and for their recruitment from only the strongest of those born on the Imperium's most inhospitable and deadly worlds. They're not some kind of egalitarian peace-keeping force, they're a hidebound fraternity of fanatical killers serving a fascist regime as it tries to avoid total annihilation at the hands of even more ruthless and bloodthirsty enemies. Should Space Marines become Equal Opportunity murderers? No, because that is a policy and a sentiment of our own, significantly gentler time.

There already ARE, what are for all intents and purposes, female Space Marines. They are called Sisters of Battle, and the only thing GW has to do with them is actually support them.

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Female SM wouldn't bring in new blood, nor would it change the image of wargamers like people have been insinuating. You want new blood and to change the image?

Take care of yourselves and don't be afraid to mention it as your hobby. Workout, eat healthy, hygiene. Let people see an ordinary guy can enjoy something that is usually seen as weird. You go to cons and see the stereotype which is sad, but not unexpected.

I think channels like miniwargaming are great it shows that the stereotype isn't 100%. Just... be productive and social.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




I personnaly wouldn't mind female Space Marines. In my game of Deathwatch RPG, I have authorised several players to make female Space Marines if they wanted to. I even gender bent a few Primarchs for the lulz (Alpharius and Omegon were twins of opposite sex, Corax was a women with very masculine traits which led to confusion, one of the lost Primach was a women). Having female Space Marines doesn't change much to the faction as a hole. It only provides with a bit more of aesthetic diversity and some more character diversity for those who like to produce fluff about their army and characters. Women Space Marines coul even be a distinctive trait of a specific Chapter while all male could become one.

GW should indeed give more presence to women in their model line. SoB have been waiting for a long time for some attention and, with the Sister of Silence out, it seems strange to me that such a faction doesn't have a larger plastic range. Of course, SoB aren't Space Marines, neither are they attracting the same sort of collectors. Guards and Scions would also benefit from being diverse in terms of gender (and race) to show them as the ``Army of Humanity`` in a dark age of total war.

The only thing I would be missing from Space Marines should they integrate women is the overly macho and homoerotic undertone of their army. I love the idea of Space Marines as overly powerful drama queen with an enormous complex of superiority and very little intellectual maturity, especially when it comes to socialisation. Plus, it would put a stop on the fequent homosexual inuendo between Space Marines that I find so hillarious and which gives them more personnality (and originality) in my opinion.

PS: Am I the only one scared that the New Marines are going to make all other factions of the Imperium (beside the Mechanicus and the Knights) increasingly less relevent both on the tabletop and in the fluff?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 15:16:47


 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







...you are a minority there, on multiple things.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Quickjager wrote:
...you are a minority there, on multiple things.


Please explain, I didn't thought my opinon was such a fringe opinion.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





epronovost wrote:
PS: Am I the only one scared that the New Marines are going to make all other factions of the Imperium (beside the Mechanicus and the Knights) increasingly less relevent both on the tabletop and in the fluff?

Probably. I don't think it'll have that effect though. Unless they're going out of their way to make New Marines more point efficient and more powerful, New Marines are unlikely to harm other Imperial factions. Heck, they may just be an elite choice or something in the regular Space Marine armies.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Space Marines as we know them get phased out for these New Marines over time.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Na, I'll let you have your own deathworld.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Wow, this thread has come the full circle of people bringing politics for both sides of the feminism discussion without reason...

I'll leave this now... but before doing it:
GW, don't make Female Space Marines, make Females models to the races that have them in the fluff!


And talking about RPGs... I saw years ago a roleplay game in a forum where 4 players played as Space Marines. Two were good roleplayers: A Ultramarine and a Space Wolf. The others two... a Grey Knight and a Female Blood Angel.
It only took 10 posts for the Female Blood Angel and the Grey Knight to began to have sex. The others two players tried to carry the game in a productive way but it ended pretty soon. Make of that what you want

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 15:45:14


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






epronovost wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
...you are a minority there, on multiple things.


Please explain, I didn't thought my opinon was such a fringe opinion.


I personally agree with you on some things, such as how Space Marines are a half-parody of hyper masculine warrior culture viewed almost through the eyes of Greek drama/tragedy, complete with homoerotic undertones and everything that goes with the trope. I also think that shoehorning SM into an egalitarian coed force would basically destroy all of those things they represent.

However, I think that genderbending primarchs and the like is better left to personal games and fan-fiction and isn't worth experimenting with in any official capacity, whatsoever.

 
   
Made in se
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 Galas wrote:
It only took 10 posts for the Female Blood Angel and the Grey Knight to began to have sex. The others two players tried to carry the game in a productive way but it ended pretty soon. Make of that what you want


That hormones are a hell of a drug.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The roleplaying world is a ... very obscure world. You don't believe what I have seen in it. Don't matter the historical period, the ambientation, the universe, people just... sorry. My psychiatrist has recommended me to don't talk about it

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
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Only Squirrel Girl isn't funny.

Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






God I hope not. Why? Because if you want to fix the problem of "Male as Default" in 40k, here's a short list of plastic kits you could really be making instead of another god damn space marine box:

Sisters of Battle. You could make this WHOLE DAMN ARMY with 4 good plastic kits. 1) Sisters/Sisters with Heavy Weapons/Command Sisters/Lots of Special Weapon Sisters could all be in one really good 10-man kit ala the skitarii box. 2) 5-man Seraphim elites box 3) Immolator/Organ tank/New Vehicle triple-kit with the rhino sprues. 4) Rework Repentia+Penitent Engines into a new centurion-sized heavy bezerk melee infantry concept, get rid of the awkward scantily clad ladies+Dominatrix thing.

Done. There's your Genestealer Cult/Skitarii/Deathwatch/Harlequin sized sisters release. They'd be at least as popular as any of those, especially if you made that initial 10 sister box a really great value for bits (Imagine the Skitarii box if rather than 2 different basic weapons they had a huge variety of heavy and special weaponry)

Imperial Guard. Their infantry looks fething terrible with their stubby arms and spaceballs helmets+shoulderpads. Scale down their armor, scale up the soldiers' actual features, and include a couple female torsos/heads and you've got yoruself an equal opportunity plastic kit.

Eldar Guardians/plastic aspects. Ancient, ugly, samey kits with tons of finecrap. Re-release in plastic and put some ladies in there.

All those are 100% more needed than more space marines kits. We currently have 7 options if we want modern plastic kits for bolter-armed power armored loyalists, with an 8th on the way.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Texas

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I have a female friend who recently got into 40K when she spotted Codex: Space Wolves at GenCon last year. Though she geeked out at the army full of wolves, she was reported to have asked, "But where are the girls?" Granted, that is one anecdote, but it shows that this does happen.
.


OMG - Space Wolf Shield Maidens and Valkyries would be the most epic gak ever.

Jesse

"Always keep fighting, it keeps you young." - Some guy. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I have a female friend who recently got into 40K when she spotted Codex: Space Wolves at GenCon last year. Though she geeked out at the army full of wolves, she was reported to have asked, "But where are the girls?" Granted, that is one anecdote, but it shows that this does happen.
.


OMG - Space Wolf Shield Maidens and Valkyries would be the most epic gak ever.


They don't even need to be Space Marines per se. Just cybernetical empowered humans. With the genocide of Fenris, the dire need of reinforcements the Space Wolves have, it can make sense.
And to be honest, anything that push the "Viking" more than the "Wolfy" is a good thing to me.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

 Galas wrote:
 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I have a female friend who recently got into 40K when she spotted Codex: Space Wolves at GenCon last year. Though she geeked out at the army full of wolves, she was reported to have asked, "But where are the girls?" Granted, that is one anecdote, but it shows that this does happen.
.


OMG - Space Wolf Shield Maidens and Valkyries would be the most epic gak ever.


They don't even need to be Space Marines per se. Just cybernetical empowered humans. With the genocide of Fenris, the dire need of reinforcements the Space Wolves have, it can make sense.
And to be honest, anything that push the "Viking" more than the "Wolfy" is a good thing to me.


I totally agree here. Less wolf, more Viking= better.

Think we need plastic sisters before we get female space marines.

You can find me in the Chicago Tiki Room, where the drinks are always strong but don't taste that way!!!

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 Luciferian wrote:
Space Marines exist to do one thing; wield the utmost physical and martial might that human kind can muster to kill gak for the Emperor. That's it. It's the reason behind their genetic modifications, and for their recruitment from only the strongest of those born on the Imperium's most inhospitable and deadly worlds. They're not some kind of egalitarian peace-keeping force, they're a hidebound fraternity of fanatical killers serving a fascist regime as it tries to avoid total annihilation at the hands of even more ruthless and bloodthirsty enemies. Should Space Marines become Equal Opportunity murderers? No, because that is a policy and a sentiment of our own, significantly gentler time.

There already ARE, what are for all intents and purposes, female Space Marines. They are called Sisters of Battle, and the only thing GW has to do with them is actually support them.

Nitpick, the Imperium isn't fascist. They're feudal and structured like the Holy Roman Empire. The Administratum itself has barely any legal control over anything and many of the organizations within the Imperium are rogue states only loosely held under power. A fascist would have a stroke looking at the Imperium and comprehending how it "works".

 Galas wrote:
Wow, this thread has come the full circle of people bringing politics for both sides of the feminism discussion without reason...

I'll leave this now... but before doing it:
GW, don't make Female Space Marines, make Females models to the races that have them in the fluff!


And talking about RPGs... I saw years ago a roleplay game in a forum where 4 players played as Space Marines. Two were good roleplayers: A Ultramarine and a Space Wolf. The others two... a Grey Knight and a Female Blood Angel.
It only took 10 posts for the Female Blood Angel and the Grey Knight to began to have sex. The others two players tried to carry the game in a productive way but it ended pretty soon. Make of that what you want


I really hate roleplayers like that and endeavor to stamp them out when I find them.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
 
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