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Tesla has to get some awesome new rule that gets more shots the larger the units, it's the only way it could compete. Like an extra shot for every five or ten models in the target unit.

 Grimgold wrote:
Gauss gives the weapon an additional -1 rend, so flayer is -1, blaster is -2, cannon is -3, and heavy cannon is -4. That seems less over the top.

According to the leaked Italian codex, this is exactly what Gauss is.
Flayer is Rapid fire 1, S4 AP-1
Blaster is Rapid fire 1, S5, AP -2
Cannon is Heavy 2, S5 AP -3, D3 damage
Heavy cannon is Heavy1, S9, AP-4, D6 damage

It appears that GW is using the AP modifier system to represent a wide range of shooting abilities (Rending, Gauss, hopefully Bladestorm), while melee "Rending" is AP -4 still on 6s to wound.

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 Galef wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Gauss gives the weapon an additional -1 rend, so flayer is -1, blaster is -2, cannon is -3, and heavy cannon is -4. That seems less over the top.

According to the leaked Italian codex, this is exactly what Gauss is.
Flayer is Rapid fire 1, S4 AP-1
Blaster is Rapid fire 1, S5, AP -2
Cannon is Heavy 2, S5 AP -3, D3 damage
Heavy cannon is Heavy1, S9, AP-4, D6 damage

It appears that GW is using the AP modifier system to represent a wide range of shooting abilities (Rending, Gauss, hopefully Bladestorm), while melee "Rending" is AP -4 still on 6s to wound.

-

Sounds fair.
Gives the small arms a buff against infantry, but a nerf against vehicles.
I will use the normal cannon a lot more with it's -3 and D3 damage.

Think I will use Immortals instead of Warriors if the points stay the same.
Tomb blades will probably still be great if they don't become to expensive. Switching out those magnetized Particle Beamers to Gauss Blasters (pewpewpewpew).
Will have to field Tomb blades in larger squads because of the changes in Reanimation Protocols.

 Grimgold wrote:
From a thread on reddit, leaks translated from Italian, probably the same guy who leaked the pricing info.

Necrons:

Reanimation protocols are made at the start of your movement phase. Roll a D6 for every slain model, on a 5+ it comes back. You can roll again in the following turns. You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain.

Can't keep a good Necron down, or a bad one. I like it actually, differentiates repair protocols nicely from disgustingly resilient.

I'm curious about how this will work for Characters. Will they just not benefit from Resurrection Protocols? Will they be able to revive even without a unit? Will they be able to revive only if there's a unit nearby?

Actually, since it specifies unit, and since characters are their own unit, I think that implies characters will never be permanently slain and will always stick around on the table, waiting for that 5+ to bring them back.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, since it specifies unit, and since characters are their own unit, I think that implies characters will never be permanently slain and will always stick around on the table, waiting for that 5+ to bring them back.

Actually, the wording indicates the opposite of that:

"You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain"

Since the character is his own unit, if he dies then the whole unit has been slain. Thus, if they use the same rule, characters will never be allowed to benefit from RPs.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, since it specifies unit, and since characters are their own unit, I think that implies characters will never be permanently slain and will always stick around on the table, waiting for that 5+ to bring them back.

Actually, the wording indicates the opposite of that:

"You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain"

Since the character is his own unit, if he dies then the whole unit has been slain. Thus, if they use the same rule, characters will never be allowed to benefit from RPs.

Hm, you have a point.
They will most likely have to make an exception, as with the changes to how characters work, RP as it is would be useless on them.
If it works how I think its going to work though, necron characters are going to be really annoying. Like the necron lord in Dark Crusade, who just waits in your base after dying until he's bought again, and then he gets back up and starts wrecking your stuff when you aren't looking.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They will most likely have to make an exception, as with the changes to how characters work, RP as it is would be useless on them.
If it works how I think its going to work though, necron characters are going to be really annoying. Like the necron lord in Dark Crusade, who just waits in your base after dying until he's bought again, and then he gets back up and starts wrecking your stuff when you aren't looking.

I hope you're right. It will be really weird if basic Warriors can revive multiple times but the HQs can't even come back once.

We've seen Necron Character datasheets, and they don't have Reanimation Protocols, just Living Metal. Then, unless Living Metal has some special interaction with characters... they are not coming back.

I thought a big part of 8th was to get rid of paper rock scissors. hopefully without losing the flavor of armies completely (looks at AOS for examples) some thigns just had to go though. I am sure tesla and aguss will still do something cool but they were the paper to vehicles rock (really clay, vehicles were weak to everything) I am hoping guass will effect some keywords and either do double damage to tanks and walker keywords or wound anything on a 5 which would help fix some of their own weaknesses. against MC

Denegaar wrote:
We've seen Necron Character datasheets, and they don't have Reanimation Protocols, just Living Metal. Then, unless Living Metal has some special interaction with characters... they are not coming back.

I was just going to point out that they are more likely to have Living Metal because of how RP works.

Denegaar wrote:
We've seen Necron Character datasheets, and they don't have Reanimation Protocols, just Living Metal. Then, unless Living Metal has some special interaction with characters... they are not coming back.

Living Metal now automatically heals a wound now, and I believe Imhotek was revealed to heal d3 per turn.

We have the rules in italian, well parts of them anyway. Still powers of the C'Tan, looks like one that inflicts mortal wounds to a single unit it can see, one that gives the C'Tan more attacks, and one that can hit any unit within 24" of the ctan on a 6 and inflicts a mortal wound. Still random, but at least mortal wounds are always useful.

That crazy rumor about quantum shielding is correct, roll a die when you take multiple wounds, and if you roll under the wounds inflicted you ignore the hit.

Staff of light is doing something crazy, it has two profiles, one for within 12" and one for within 24". Within 12 it's the staff of light we all know and love assault 3, str 5, ap -2, outside of 12 inches (or maybe a different firing mode), it's a tesla weapon, assault 3 str 6 0 ap, and on a 6+ appears to do an extra wound, Google translate is my wing man, but part of the entry is missing.

Lords, overlords, and presumably the other independent characters have living metal special rule but not repair protocols. Based on other leaks, We know living metal heals a wound a round, and a phylactery makes that a D3. Res orb allows units within 3" of the bearer to reroll(?) reanimation rolls, not sure on that , there is something about per model in there, and I'm not sure it's expendable.

edit here is an image missing from our leaks thread:

Denegaar wrote:
We've seen Necron Character datasheets, and they don't have Reanimation Protocols, just Living Metal. Then, unless Living Metal has some special interaction with characters... they are not coming back.

Oh. Well that really sucks.

Thanks, GW, glad you removed the iconic Necron ability from out HQs.

Yeah...my idea was better.
Dammit GW, and you were doing so well thus far.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah...my idea was better.
Dammit GW, and you were doing so well thus far.

Your idea was much better.

In an edition full of Multiple Wounds and Mortal Wounds, regenerating a single wound per turn is pathetic and vastly inferior to reviving after death.

They gave us automatic D3 wounds IWND on characters (assuming you spring for the phylactery and why wouldn't you), and they are pretty tough in their own right, with a 3+/4++ save, toughness 5, and north of four wounds they are already pretty tough. Add in the 2+ LoS from lychguard, and the inability for anything but snipers to hit them at range and you have a model that will go the distance. If anything I think necron characters might be tougher in this edition than they have ever been.

Interesting, the only thing I think I couldn't make out is the twinlinked gauss blasters for the Tomb blades.

 Grimgold wrote:
They gave us automatic D3 wounds IWND on characters (assuming you spring for the phylactery and why wouldn't you)

Which is completely irrelevant if your overlord is dead.

 Grimgold wrote:
and they are pretty tough in their own right, with a 3+/4++ save, toughness 5, and north of four wounds they are already pretty tough.

No, they're really not. That 3+ save will be much worse against most weapons, the 4++ save is outright ignored by any Mortal Wounds, any anything that does Multiple Wounds only needs to get one or two of those past your save and your Overlord is gone for good.

 Grimgold wrote:
Add in the 2+ LoS from lychguard, and the inability for anything but snipers to hit them at range and you have a model that will go the distance.

And not do anything. Because Necron characters are worthless outside of combat. And once you get into combat, your Overlord has nothing to hide behind.

 Grimgold wrote:
If anything I think necron characters might be tougher in this edition than they have ever been.

Everything we've seen thus far points to the opposite.

Could lychguard 2+ LoS even if either unit is in CC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimgold wrote:
We have the rules in italian, well parts of them anyway. Still powers of the C'Tan, looks like one that inflicts mortal wounds to a single unit it can see, one that gives the C'Tan more attacks, and one that can hit any unit within 24" of the ctan on a 6 and inflicts a mortal wound. Still random, but at least mortal wounds are always useful.

That crazy rumor about quantum shielding is correct, roll a die when you take multiple wounds, and if you roll under the wounds inflicted you ignore the hit.

Staff of light is doing something crazy, it has two profiles, one for within 12" and one for within 24". Within 12 it's the staff of light we all know and love assault 3, str 5, ap -2, outside of 12 inches (or maybe a different firing mode), it's a tesla weapon, assault 3 str 6 0 ap, and on a 6+ appears to do an extra wound, Google translate is my wing man, but part of the entry is missing.

Lords, overlords, and presumably the other independent characters have living metal special rule but not repair protocols. Based on other leaks, We know living metal heals a wound a round, and a phylactery makes that a D3. Res orb allows units within 3" of the bearer to reroll(?) reanimation rolls, not sure on that , there is something about per model in there, and I'm not sure it's expendable.

edit here is an image missing from our leaks thread:

Interesting, the only thing I think I couldn't make out is the twinlinked gauss blasters for the Tomb blades.

I guess they're going to be Cadenza Rapida 2 S5 AP-2 dmg 1 then

torblind wrote:
Could lychguard 2+ LoS even if either unit is in CC?

Last I heard, that only works against shooting.

Though either way, I don't see how this is a point in favour of the overlord's suitability when the main argument appears to involve him needing other units to take hits for him.

Has the full text of the phylactery been desciphered? Didn't it have a bring back from the dead function on a 4+ not too long ago?

 vipoid wrote:


Which is completely irrelevant if your overlord is dead.

Did 7th ed hide a come back from the dead mechanic I missed, because it was my understanding if you lost your last wound you were out. So yeah, not sure what your point is.

 vipoid wrote:
No, they're really not. That 3+ save will be much worse against most weapons, the 4++ save is outright ignored by any Mortal Wounds, any anything that does Multiple Wounds only needs to get one or two of those past your save and your Overlord is gone for good.

it's a 3+ or at worst a 4++, considering how many ap 3 weapons were out there it's not much changed aside from having double wounds. Also no one else recovers from mortal wounds, so I'd say we are the strongest in that regard.

 vipoid wrote:
And not do anything. Because Necron characters are worthless outside of combat. And once you get into combat, your Overlord has nothing to hide behind.

Necron characters buff nearby necron units and depending on cofiguration can do decent in ranged or CC, and LoS works in CC.

 vipoid wrote:
Everything we've seen thus far points to the opposite.

Lets just do some quick math, to show you how far off base you are I'll assume no look out sir, and that he is standing out in the middle of a field with his codpiece flapping in the breeze:

Bolters 7th ed:
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .05 means 3/.05 or 60 bolter shots to down a lord

Bolters 8th ed:
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = .07 means 6/..07 or 86 bolter shots to down an overlord

Reaper chain sword 7th ed:
(1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 3) + (1/2 * 1/6 * 3) = .75 or 1.3 reaper chainsword attacks to kill an overlord

Reaper chain sword 8th ed:
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 = .22 or about 4.5 reaper chainsword swings to kill an overlord

In the worst case for him he gets caught by an opponent who wants to lascannon him to death:
7th ed
2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 2/3 = .19 so about 15.78 las cannons shots to kill him

8th ed
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 = .77 so 6/.77 so 7.8 lascannon shots to kill him

An overlord is already tougher in 8th ed before the living metal special rule, with the living metal special rule he will be a monster.

*edit* forgot three wounds in lascannon comparison, updated, but I think we can chalk that one up to lascannons being worth taking now.

I like it.

The troops are teleported away for repair and then returned to the battle. The characters on the other hand have more advanced bodies that can selfrepair like the T1000.

Will it be as good as the 4+ RP from 7th?
For the troops it will in some instances.
For the characters it's worse, but they may have other benefits.

I'm already planning a mass blob of 3 20 man squads of warriors backed up with a ghost ark each.

Expensive, but the sheer troll factor and disgusting luck will HORRIFY ANY OPPONENT. Imagine the face of an opponent who looks smug at taking out 12 warriors. And you bring back 10 of them the next turn.

Trolltastic. Just pure, undiluted trolling from the kings of dick moves themselves!

Edit: wrong topic

In reference to Grimgolds nice calculations for 7th vs 8th.

Your lascannon calculation for 7th is off by about 10 shots.
Also if you take decurion into account 7th ed Characters are tougher.

Do we know if 8th ed characters have access to 2+ saves?
There might also be other rules or wargear that futher mitigate damage in 8th.

It doesn't really bother me, we got new awesome C'tans instead!

 Grimgold wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Which is completely irrelevant if your overlord is dead.

Did 7th ed hide a come back from the dead mechanic I missed, because it was my understanding if you lost your last wound you were out. So yeah, not sure what your point is.

 vipoid wrote:
No, they're really not. That 3+ save will be much worse against most weapons, the 4++ save is outright ignored by any Mortal Wounds, any anything that does Multiple Wounds only needs to get one or two of those past your save and your Overlord is gone for good.

it's a 3+ or at worst a 4++, considering how many ap 3 weapons were out there it's not much changed aside from having double wounds. Also no one else recovers from mortal wounds, so I'd say we are the strongest in that regard.

 vipoid wrote:
And not do anything. Because Necron characters are worthless outside of combat. And once you get into combat, your Overlord has nothing to hide behind.

Necron characters buff nearby necron units and depending on cofiguration can do decent in ranged or CC, and LoS works in CC.

 vipoid wrote:
Everything we've seen thus far points to the opposite.

Lets just do some quick math, to show you how far off base you are I'll assume no look out sir, and that he is standing out in the middle of a field with his codpiece flapping in the breeze:

Bolters 7th ed:
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .05 means 3/.05 or 60 bolter shots to down a lord

Bolters 8th ed:
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = .07 means 6/..07 or 86 bolter shots to down an overlord

Reaper chain sword 7th ed:
(1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 3) + (1/2 * 1/6 * 3) = .75 or 1.3 reaper chainsword attacks to kill an overlord

Reaper chain sword 8th ed:
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 2/9 = .22 or about 4.5 reaper chainsword swings to kill an overlord

In the worst case for him he gets caught by an opponent who wants to lascannon him to death:
7th ed
2/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 2/3 = .19 so about 5.3 las cannons shots to kill him

8th ed
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 = .77 so 6/.77 so 7.8 lascannon shots to kill him

An overlord is already tougher in 8th ed before the living metal special rule, with the living metal special rule he will be a monster.

Quiet! You're detracting from his "it's different, and I don't understand it, so it must be worse! The sky is falling!" narrative.

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:
In reference to Grimgolds nice calculations for 7th vs 8th.

Your lascannon calculation for 7th is off by about 10 shots.
Also if you take decurion into account 7th ed Characters are tougher.

Do we know if 8th ed characters have access to 2+ saves?
There might also be other rules or wargear that futher mitigate damage in 8th.

It doesn't really bother me, we got new awesome C'tans instead!

lol, fixed it thanks for catching that. As for Decurion, that relies on other units, and if we can have other units involved 8th ed overlord is immortal since he can just stay near a unit and pull casualties from the other side.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I'm already planning a mass blob of 3 20 man squads of warriors backed up with a ghost ark each.

Expensive, but the sheer troll factor and disgusting luck will HORRIFY ANY OPPONENT. Imagine the face of an opponent who looks smug at taking out 12 warriors. And you bring back 10 of them the next turn.

Trolltastic. Just pure, undiluted trolling from the kings of dick moves themselves!

One problem, morale.
Leadership - dead warriors - 1D6 = more losses
10 - 12 - 1D6 = 3 to 8 more dead warriors

However we don't know if Necrons will have some way to mitigate morale, every other faction seems to have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:

lol, fixed it thanks for catching that. As for Decurion, that relies on other units, and if we can have other units involved 8th ed overlord is immortal since he can just stay near a unit and pull casualties from the other side.

That's true. 7th and 8th are very different in respect of how characters are handled so it's difficult to make a comparison. But it's fun to speculate and try to strategize.