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I wonder if my void raven bombers might be actually useful now with the weapon changes. I think they overpriced them originally, being one of the first zooming fliers and not realizing you often only get between 1-3 rounds of shooting with one in a game. That fact should be accounted in their points and they should cost less.

Here's hoping that they change the stupid rule for flyers that they must return back on their own table edge after flying off the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Personally, I hope that Trueborn and Bloodbrides no longer exist and that Warriors and Wyches will just be able to take more weapon options.
Like Warriors being able to take 2 weapons per 5 (1 heavy and 1 special) and Wyches taking 1 Wych weapon per 3.
Maybe also allow their unit "champion" take a weapon choice in addition to this limit.

That's the worst idea I've ever heard unless you hate DE and want to nerf trueborn. I can agree with the bloodbride proposal because they sucked. But trueborn are one of our best units, they have more special and heavy weapons options than most with least amount of requirements, and now with split fire they are even more amazing. I hope to God that gw doesn't listen to you lol.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Aren't witches supposed to 'prolong' combats? If hordes are going to be a thing and rows upon rows of retreating and shooting enemies as a result, the ability to lock down a squad or two is way more important than the ability to kill 'em all.

Yeah. Wouldn't it have been nice if they could reliably do that, locking down units, instead of being at the mercy of a "DUDE FORGE THE NARRATIVE LOL" dice roll?

"B-but they might have wargear that gives them bonuses on the r-"

Why is there a roll at all? I want someone to justify No Escape being a roll-off instead of a flat "units in combat with wyches may not disengage unless the wych unit is destroyed."

I mean, the obvious reason is that GW didn't want it to be an absolute certainty that you can't retreat.

I didn't ask for a reason, incompetence could be a reason. I asked for a justification.

Well then: it's justified by the fact they didn't want it to be certain then. The reason justifies itself or whatever.

I seriously don't know what you really want. It's a roll off because they felt it being certain was too powerful on a troop unit, or because they didn't want it to be a certainty. Could it have been a flat roll? Yeah, but the chances are different and maybe they want the opponent to feel like they're doing something in response or something?


It seems like a weird thing to single out and want justification for.

"I don't know what the difference is between a reason and a justification."

Wouldn't it have been easier to save us both time and just say that? As for why I'm asking for a justification, do you understand that this is a discussion board and that the purpose of this forum is in fact to host discussion on Warhammer 40k and Warhammer 40k news?

Ah yes, because I definitely said that
A reason can, indeed, justify itself. Amazing concept, I know.

And yes I understand this is a discussion board, but at the same time it really just seems you're trying to angle that it is 100% a bad thing that it isn't a certainty, especially with your whole "LOL FORGE THE NARRATIVE random dice rolls LOL" speel before.

If you're going to be like that, the reality is that no one here can give you GWs justification for it.

Your wyches may not be taking overwatch anyways. Your raider/ venom can now rush the target to soak and the wyches can then follow. You only get overwatch if you aren't engaged.

Incubi also got a buff due to the new to wound chart. Str5 is no longer wounding on 2+, they will wound every unit t5-7 on a 5+, and it takes dedicated antitank rounds now to eliminate their save (ap-3 or better) then there is the fact that they've said that power from pain exists and will allow for damage mitigation. There is no more instant death after all...

The wyches not ensuring the opponent t doesn't leave combat is to keep you army from thing down the entire enemy army for the whole game. A giant horde of wyches being backed up with psychic powers to mitigate damage and being immune to morale tests would completely invalidate most armies in the game.

How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?

We can only go by what we do know:

- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP
- Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat

Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.

BertBert wrote:
How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?

We can only go by what we do know:

- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP
- Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat

Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.

Well yeah, but if we didnt extrapolate what we don't know, what would we bitch about? Its like the nfl offseason here

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I have this 4 archon build with shadowfields, blast pistols and huskblades that does really well. Shadow fields are one of the only things that got boosted in the current codex. I've made at least a couple opponents (including tau) curse at how durable those shadow fields are and when you fail one it lasts the rest of the phase so you just do the switcharoo and throw another shadow field archon in the place of the previous to take the next shooting phase then rinse and repeat. Seriously it's hilarious vs guard and tau. It costs like 500 points or more though. Sadly when 8th hits it'll be completely useless.

In my experience the first failed shadowfield save kills the Archon because of the plethora of Str6+ and no eternal warrior access at all

Even with tau or guard i don't see str 6 in high enough numbers for it to matter much. Most guard i face have str 5 and 3 or ordnance weapons (only hit once) and lots of single shot as well as normal shot heavy weapons that don't shoot much. Guy takes like thudd guns or wyverns as well which don't instant death. Honestly the game is more about spamming str 5 en masse than str 6. Even going against tau str 5 was like the magic number and i roll my wounds one at a time in case it matters.

Of course with blasts doing d6 hits in the future instead it may do more to small squads which is interesting.

I feel like I went to a used car lot, I'm just not inspired by the deal I want this to be. Half of it is the same, the other half is ether worse or slightly better. I'll wait for more but so far not so happy.

Jbz` wrote:
In my experience the first failed shadowfield save kills the Archon because of the plethora of Str6+ and no eternal warrior access at all

Same.

I'd also add that I never found Arrhons remotely worth their points. They seem incredibly overpriced for squishy HQs with useless melee weapons.

It is a sad state of affairs. In 3rd/4th edition they were murder machines. And they could take bikes!

BertBert wrote:
How can anyone even claim to assess the effectiveness of any unit in the 8th edition, when all the determining factors are still unknown?

We can only go by what we do know:

- they get a 4+ invul. save in the fight phase
- Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flails are -1 AP
- Enemy Infantry units within 1" have to win a roll-off before being able to retreat

Good luck extrapolating viability from that when you don't even know the full game rules, not to mention other factions and point costs.

...but that's not all we know.

The following says a great deal:

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Drukhari wrote:Their hydra gauntlets and razorflails are fantastic, giving their attacks -1 AP. But their real talent is in the [incredibly powerful] No Escape special rule...

The special weapons give -1AP, and that is "fantastic"? The article-writer is trying to tell us that Wyches don't suck any more, but the evidence we have seen suggests the opposite. If there really are special rules that make them good not suck quite so much, why was the No Escape rule presented as support and described as "incredibly powerful"?

The obvious conclusion is that soaking the years of dust off my Wyches was premature.

Having said that, if i can run my Wych Cult with at least some chance of avoiding being tabled, then 8th will be a winner from my perspective.

 Galef wrote:
Personally, I hope that Trueborn and Bloodbrides no longer exist and that Warriors and Wyches will just be able to take more weapon options.
Like Warriors being able to take 2 weapons per 5 (1 heavy and 1 special) and Wyches taking 1 Wych weapon per 3.
Maybe also allow their unit "champion" take a weapon choice in addition to this limit.

Only if Assault, Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastator Marines are also removed, after all they're just marines with different weapons.

This is one of those things that absolutely should never be followed.

wretched sylph wrote:

The special weapons give -1AP, and that is "fantastic"? The article-writer is trying to tell us that Wyches don't suck any more, but the evidence we have seen suggests the opposite.

The article-writer has played 8-th.

Man, the bitching here is almost as strong as it's going to be in the csm thread.

ps. Oh, i finally remember where i heard bout this drukhari. Some kind of trolls from warcraft! Makes sense now.