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You can easily play 40k in a more co-op version and storytelling way. Just because someone wants it to only be competitive and about min/max lists does not mean that it will always be competitive or about min/max lists.
I've been playing narrative 40k forever. It can easily be both. And is both no matter how much someone may not want people playing in a way that they don't approve (from either side).
auticus wrote: The point being that insulting a group of people is trolling. No matter how clever your response. Yes... I will dismiss a troll post.
There are plenty of groups playing narrative play for AOS to dismiss your argument outright that no one will be using anything but matched play. There's an entire NEO group that focuses entirely on narrative event organization.
Your echo chamber may be nothing but tournament games but that doesn't mean that there isn't a world outside of your echo chamber.
AoS != 40k albeit it does a bit more now.
But AoS was not based upon the tournament scene as much as 40k was. When AoS was formed, its was practically a dead game so they could do what ever which if you recall the original rules to AoS was "narrative rules" IE Bring what ever you what, which practiclly shot the game in the foot at launch and resulted in GW needing to do a mad scramble to get points into the game and a matched play system because the community openly rejected the game. 40k has been established for a long LONG time and has deep roots in the competitive scene IE look up the tournaments and their draw compared to that of AoS.
The proof that Narrative play is hardly going to be used is already evident in my response. Narrative play is going to be what unbound is now, which virtually no one plays, and the only time Narrative play was used was by people who had no structured army and just wanted to use their models.
So, if you are assuming that do i think lesser of armies that show up that dont follow the rules of army building? That have no structure to the laid out rules? yeah i do because the rules exist for a reason. Im not going to put my matched list up against your "narrative list" of like 7 flyers because its a fluffy, and im not going to play your list of just cultists because thats now how the game was designed.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 13:50:29
hobojebus wrote: You have plenty of games that are co-op like zombicide but 40K is about two armies meeting and one coming out victourious.
competative games are about winning, thats their entire point if they were not there would be no victory conditions would there?
And people dislike weak lists because it ends in the game being a steamrolling sesion thats no fun for either side, if both sides dont have a roughly equal chance to win you can't really take any satisfaction from winning.
If you can't find satisfaction in a hard fought but thematically appropriate loss, then Narrative gaming might not be your bag. And that's fine! Competitive gaming where both sides are trying to test their skill against each other and win is great for people who enjoy that. But understand that there are people out there who find it entertaining to play even if they're not favored to win.
hobojebus wrote: You have plenty of games that are co-op like zombicide but 40K is about two armies meeting and one coming out victourious.
competative games are about winning, thats their entire point if they were not there would be no victory conditions would there?
And people dislike weak lists because it ends in the game being a steamrolling sesion thats no fun for either side, if both sides dont have a roughly equal chance to win you can't really take any satisfaction from winning.
If you can't find satisfaction in a hard fought but thematically appropriate loss, then Narrative gaming might not be your bag. And that's fine! Competitive gaming where both sides are trying to test their skill against each other and win is great for people who enjoy that. But understand that there are people out there who find it entertaining to play even if they're not favored to win.
And i agree 100% with this because i am infact one of them.
Played ravenwing deathwing, loved my terminators but man where they ass. Still loved playing them, but i still played in matched play because thats where everyone else was playing and thats the rules that were established, and thats how i was going to play.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Well its kind of like finding out someone is racist or a bigot. It makes whatever comes out of that person's mouth garble. So if you insist on posting troll posts belittling others that don't share your viewpoint, feel free.
And your viewpoints will continue to be dismissed.
As is your echo chamber viewpoint of the world where you are trying to claim knowledge of every club that plays 40k on the globe.
auticus wrote: The point being that insulting a group of people is trolling. No matter how clever your response. Yes... I will dismiss a troll post.
There are plenty of groups playing narrative play for AOS to dismiss your argument outright that no one will be using anything but matched play. There's an entire NEO group that focuses entirely on narrative event organization.
Your echo chamber may be nothing but tournament games but that doesn't mean that there isn't a world outside of your echo chamber.
AoS != 40k albeit it does a bit more now.
But AoS was not based upon the tournament scene as much as 40k was. When AoS was formed, its was practically a dead game so they could do what ever which if you recall the original rules to AoS was "narrative rules" IE Bring what ever you what, which practiclly shot the game in the foot at launch and resulted in GW needing to do a mad scramble to get points into the game and a matched play system because the community openly rejected the game. 40k has been established for a long LONG time and has deep roots in the competitive scene IE look up the tournaments and their draw compared to that of AoS.
The proof that Narrative play is hardly going to be used is already evident in my response. Narrative play is going to be what unbound is now, which virtually no one plays, and the only time Narrative play was used was by people who had no structured army and just wanted to use their models.
So, if you are assuming that do i think lesser of armies that show up that dont follow the rules of army building? That have no structure to the laid out rules? yeah i do because the rules exist for a reason. Im not going to put my matched list up against your "narrative list" of like 7 flyers because its a fluffy, and im not going to play your list of just cultists because thats now how the game was designed.
Nobody's making you play against Narrative lists. The whole separation of Matched and Narrative is designed to enable that - if you enjoy Matched play only and think Narrative is stupid, then only play against people who want to play Matched.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Then maybe you should phrase your argument as 'I don't enjoy Narrative play for these reasons', not 'people who play Narrative are idiot children who can't play correctly and I pity them.' Because doing the latter is trolling and will be called out as such.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Well its kind of like finding out someone is racist or a bigot. It makes whatever comes out of that person's mouth garble. So if you insist on posting troll posts belittling others that don't share your viewpoint, feel free.
And your viewpoints will continue to be dismissed.
As is your echo chamber viewpoint of the world where you are trying to claim knowledge of every club that plays 40k on the globe.
Tell you what then, which part of my post was a troll post?
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument. Narrative play, which equates to unbound is just that, its lower tier version of the game because it removes rules from the established core rules. Same as unbound. The game was designed with a set of formation rules and requirments as to what you needed to bring, if you choose not to follow that, then you are choosing to partake in a dumbed down version of the game.
Narrative play, imo is going to be the same as unbound, hardly ever played, and only there for the kid that just collected models and painted them, has no idea how the game works but just wants to play with his models and make up rules on the fly.
Matched play is for that neck beard that hangs around the shop all day, disparages people's purchases, and smells of cheetos.
Hopefully this helped you learn to post harder and not smarter.
Yep by all means continue posting insulting posts trying to hammer your point home like a rabid git-gud bruh.
"dumber". lol.
When you learn how to communicate without the need to flex your e-peen around we can have a proper discussion. Until then I'll just say I'm glad you are proud of your little e-jimmy. We're all impressed. I'll blog about how much I'm impressed tonight.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:01:21
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument.
auticus wrote: The point being that insulting a group of people is trolling. No matter how clever your response. Yes... I will dismiss a troll post.
There are plenty of groups playing narrative play for AOS to dismiss your argument outright that no one will be using anything but matched play. There's an entire NEO group that focuses entirely on narrative event organization.
Your echo chamber may be nothing but tournament games but that doesn't mean that there isn't a world outside of your echo chamber.
AoS != 40k albeit it does a bit more now.
But AoS was not based upon the tournament scene as much as 40k was. When AoS was formed, its was practically a dead game so they could do what ever which if you recall the original rules to AoS was "narrative rules" IE Bring what ever you what, which practiclly shot the game in the foot at launch and resulted in GW needing to do a mad scramble to get points into the game and a matched play system because the community openly rejected the game. 40k has been established for a long LONG time and has deep roots in the competitive scene IE look up the tournaments and their draw compared to that of AoS.
The proof that Narrative play is hardly going to be used is already evident in my response. Narrative play is going to be what unbound is now, which virtually no one plays, and the only time Narrative play was used was by people who had no structured army and just wanted to use their models.
So, if you are assuming that do i think lesser of armies that show up that dont follow the rules of army building? That have no structure to the laid out rules? yeah i do because the rules exist for a reason. Im not going to put my matched list up against your "narrative list" of like 7 flyers because its a fluffy, and im not going to play your list of just cultists because thats now how the game was designed.
Nobody's making you play against Narrative lists. The whole separation of Matched and Narrative is designed to enable that - if you enjoy Matched play only and think Narrative is stupid, then only play against people who want to play Matched.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Then maybe you should phrase your argument as 'I don't enjoy Narrative play for these reasons', not 'people who play Narrative are idiot children who can't play correctly and I pity them.' Because doing the latter is trolling and will be called out as such.
Your assuming i pity them.
I dont enjoy narrative play you are right. My whole point of this is that the OP is saying that narrative play is just a way of pushing people off into a "lesser" category, is true, narrative play is that, a lesser for of the game, for the added benefit of "immersion" but again i use that lightly because majority of the time its just people who dont want to follow the normal rules and use the guise of it being "fluffy" to bring what ever they want. So not pitty, more or less irate, because it is a lesser form of the game to choose to ignore rules.
HOWEVER!
this is with the unbound rules which is pretty much just "Hey eye ball your points." To GW actually putting in power levels, which is what narrative play now is not as bad, since it plays more jus AoS where you dont pay for upgrades you just pay for the unit, and take what ever so it prevents the foremetioned example of someone running stupid stuff against armies that have no chance.
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument.
All I read was "Sorry, not sorry."
Allow me to respond in kind.
Exalted good sir.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:02:25
Elbows wrote: If that's how you read that...there's not a lot I can do for ya.
I mean, you post DOES seems to be leveling anger at people who play the game as a game rather than as a narrative experience. Maybe I'm just projecting.
----
I personally think the casual/"fluffy" players are not faultless. Sure, both players should be willing to change their list to get a game they'll enjoy, but the key words there are "both players". If the casual player refuses to change their own list and puts the onus entirely on the other guy then not negotiating, that's making demands, regardless of how willing they are to make them. And if the casual does not grow as a player or expand their interests, you can just as easily have that situation where you're seeing the same list over and over that people don't want to play anymore. This is especially true if they come to expect you to hand hold their army, then when you do beat them the accusations of OP start flying.
That kind of behavior gets you called a scrub any almost any other gaming community. It's one thing to self limit yourself or to play with challange/fluff in mind, but don't force that on other people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:05:40
auticus wrote: Yep by all means continue posting insulting posts trying to hammer your point home like a rabid git-gud bruh.
"dumber". lol.
When you learn how to communicate without the need to flex your e-peen around we can have a proper discussion. Until then I'll just say I'm glad you are proud of your little e-jimmy. We're all impressed. I'll blog about how much I'm impressed tonight.
Welp im sorry that you feel that way, was hoping it did not need to drop down to just out right insulting each other.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Well its kind of like finding out someone is racist or a bigot. It makes whatever comes out of that person's mouth garble. So if you insist on posting troll posts belittling others that don't share your viewpoint, feel free.
And your viewpoints will continue to be dismissed.
As is your echo chamber viewpoint of the world where you are trying to claim knowledge of every club that plays 40k on the globe.
Tell you what then, which part of my post was a troll post?
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument. Narrative play, which equates to unbound is just that, its lower tier version of the game because it removes rules from the established core rules. Same as unbound. The game was designed with a set of formation rules and requirments as to what you needed to bring, if you choose not to follow that, then you are choosing to partake in a dumbed down version of the game.
The trolling part was when you called people who enjoy Narrative play kids who don't know the rules. I shouldn't have to point that out.
And guess what? In 8th edition it's the Narrative rules set and points system that's in the Core rules and presented on all the base unit data sheets, and you have to buy a separate book for Matched play points. So if anything the Narrative game is now more Core than Matched play. So there (I hope that's understood as a joke).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:12:21
hobojebus wrote: Oh the militant casual is far from innocent in such a debate it's disengenuous to pretend only one side is guilty of insults toward the other.
I suppose its how you take what someone else says, either by being offended by it or not is a personal issue.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Well its kind of like finding out someone is racist or a bigot. It makes whatever comes out of that person's mouth garble. So if you insist on posting troll posts belittling others that don't share your viewpoint, feel free.
And your viewpoints will continue to be dismissed.
As is your echo chamber viewpoint of the world where you are trying to claim knowledge of every club that plays 40k on the globe.
Tell you what then, which part of my post was a troll post?
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument. Narrative play, which equates to unbound is just that, its lower tier version of the game because it removes rules from the established core rules. Same as unbound. The game was designed with a set of formation rules and requirments as to what you needed to bring, if you choose not to follow that, then you are choosing to partake in a dumbed down version of the game.
The trolling part was when you called people who enjoy Narrative play kids who don't know the rules. I shouldn't have to point that out.
And guess what? In 8th edition it's the Narrative rules set and points system that's in the Core rules and presented on all the base unit data sheets, and you have to buy a separate book for Matched play points. So if anything the Narrative game is now more Core than Matched play. So there
Which i do agree in a later post that yes with the introduction of power points, narrative is lessened, and acts more like a second point system.
its understood as a joke so you are guuci mang
If someone is offended by something i say, thats their own prerogative, i have yet to come out and point fingers saying this guy right here is <what ever insult you want> i just think the playing of narrative or unbound is a lesser form of the game, if someone wants to take that as an insult thats their problem not mine.
realistically we are bitching over toy soldiers and playing make pretend lol, so in the grand scheme of things.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:14:59
hobojebus wrote: Oh the militant casual is far from innocent in such a debate it's disengenuous to pretend only one side is guilty of insults toward the other.
Oh, sure. The internet's full of no matter what opinions they have.
Some people like narrative, some people like competitive, and some people like both. Indeed, narrative can even be competitive.
I would like to point out that HaussVanHorne, the guy that started this thread in a very insulting manner, has not returned to post in it. Truly, he's the most narrative of all.
kronk wrote: Let's not get heated here and fling stuff.
Some people like narrative, some people like competitive, and some people like both. Indeed, narrative can even be competitive.
I would like to point out that HaussVanHorne, the guy that started this thread in a very insulting manner, has not returned to post in it. Truly, he's the most narrative of all.
WOAH WOAH WOAH! HEY! He is just role playing a troll, dont RP shame him!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:22:03
I shouldn't be so surprised that in ten pages people still haven't figured out that their way of playing the game isn't objectively the best, as opposed to a matter of personal preference.
hobojebus wrote: Oh the militant casual is far from innocent in such a debate it's disengenuous to pretend only one side is guilty of insults toward the other.
I suppose its how you take what someone else says, either by being offended by it or not is a personal issue.
Again, calling something a troll post does not wave a magic wand and magically make their points invalid.
Well its kind of like finding out someone is racist or a bigot. It makes whatever comes out of that person's mouth garble. So if you insist on posting troll posts belittling others that don't share your viewpoint, feel free.
And your viewpoints will continue to be dismissed.
As is your echo chamber viewpoint of the world where you are trying to claim knowledge of every club that plays 40k on the globe.
Tell you what then, which part of my post was a troll post?
The calling of narrative play the "kiddie pool"? If so then im sorry you took offense to that but being offended does not remove the point of the argument. Narrative play, which equates to unbound is just that, its lower tier version of the game because it removes rules from the established core rules. Same as unbound. The game was designed with a set of formation rules and requirments as to what you needed to bring, if you choose not to follow that, then you are choosing to partake in a dumbed down version of the game.
The trolling part was when you called people who enjoy Narrative play kids who don't know the rules. I shouldn't have to point that out.
And guess what? In 8th edition it's the Narrative rules set and points system that's in the Core rules and presented on all the base unit data sheets, and you have to buy a separate book for Matched play points. So if anything the Narrative game is now more Core than Matched play. So there
Which i do agree in a later post that yes with the introduction of power points, narrative is lessened, and acts more like a second point system.
its understood as a joke so you are guuci mang
If someone is offended by something i say, thats their own prerogative, i have yet to come out and point fingers saying this guy right here is <what ever insult you want> i just think the playing of narrative or unbound is a lesser form of the game, if someone wants to take that as an insult thats their problem not mine.
realistically we are bitching over toy soldiers and playing make pretend lol, so in the grand scheme of things.
I figured we were always talking about the new iteration of Narrative play with power levels. Previously most Narrative players would use the points system, even though it was ill suited for the task. I think most of us agree that power levels are a fine compromise.
And while I don't want to drag out an argument about something off topic, I do want to say that it really irks me when people try to abdicate responsibility for their words by treating people's reactions as something wholly separate from the statement that provoked it.
Not that I'm pointing fingers, mind you. (see how that works? )
Honestly, the real victim is the semi competative player, who's stuck between the choice of playing against either the soul crushing Dangle and Wolfwolf super friends list or timmy's all ogryn army :V
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/24 14:28:01
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
no matter what opinions they have.
