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but we don't know EVERYTHING,

as for a unit with roughly the same predicted power level that should be a fairly hard counter to inceptor squads, I'll toss one out.

we know that a Inceptor squad costs 159 points for a squad of 3, with 2 assault bolters each. assuming the points stay approximatly the same, a Predator tank could be upgraded to a full las pred for that much. and that would SHRED the inceptor squad.

and ohh look! it's a unit 1k sons have!

or the demolisher tank. maybe a properly kitted out dreadnought? ohh I bet the helldrake'd fry it pretty easily. CSMs have plenty of tools at 150ish points to handle this.

Where does anyone get the concept that two units that have similar points cost will do equally well against each other? Points levels always, always, always are a relative gauge of strength vs a broad variety of targets.

Compare Rubrics against 20 different targets of the same power level. Obviously we cannot just yet, but should not draw conclusions based on one or two available comparisons.

 Talamare wrote:
I think that people are approaching this slightly wrong

Don't compare Rubric killing Interceptors and vice/versa

Instead, let's see how they fare against a few standards.

vs T4, Av3+ MEQ
vs T3, Av5+ GEQ
vs T5, Av4+ Transport
vs T7, Av3+ Dreadnaught
vs T8, Av3+ Tank

Alright, lets do this

First are inceptors, then rubrics in RF/Pistol range (sorc has bolt pistol, isn't using smite), then plague marines with 2 blight 1 plasma, also in rapid fire range.

4 vs 2 vs 2.37
6.666 vs 4 vs 4.52
4 vs 1.666 vs 4.3 (blight launcher starts getting multiple wounds per hit).
2 vs 1.333 vs 2.04
2 vs .666 vs 1.70

I forgot the blight launcher rerolls to wounds rolls of 1, so the plague marine is a little lower than it should be. Including that it should be:

4 vs 2 vs 2.67
6.666 vs 4 vs 5.07
4 vs 1.666 vs 5.04
2 vs 1.333 vs 2.34
2 vs .666 vs 2

Left both up just in case I messed up my recalculation. So again, rubrics just don't put out much damage, even compared to the lower cost plague marines they need to cast smite every turn just to stay competitive, and again I'll stress the 1/18 chance of killing half your rubrics off. Plague marines are also a troop option, meaning this isn't a slot issue, and plague marines can take damage better than rubrics, so the cost isn't durability.

Inceptors. They're called Inceptors. Been bugging me for 4 pages.

I dont remember them being in the movie.

 McGibs wrote:
Inceptors. They're called Inceptors. Been bugging me for 4 pages.

Yeah, sorry about that, I'm on my phone so it kept getting autocorrected without me noticing. I'll fix mine.

 Roknar wrote:
Sigh, you're twisting my words and taking them out of context.
I'm saying that a judgement made not knowing 100% if the facts is the the same as knowing 0%.

How did I take your words out of context? You said that the Warlord trait and CP are free. I said they don't cost points, but they do cost slots (paraphrased). So now your going to add something to one unit that makes them better I get to do the same except its not going to be the same thing ,its going to be the thing that improves their power level the most.

 Roknar wrote:
You keep saying that adding context doesn't matter since both get it, but that's not true.
Take the humble rhino for example. space marines and csm get it, but you don't know about formations.
Let's just assume for the purpose of discussion that being able to add a havoc launcher is a big deal and so SM rhino << CSM rhino

I keep saying that adding context docent matter because the Devs said they intended to give every army similar support options. Which I take to mean the same power level, not the same exact thing. It doesn't matter though because in either situation Rubrics are playing catch-up

 Roknar wrote:
Space marines then get a formation which makes them free, which is huge, but so what..then csm can get some thing too...except they never did.
So now free rhino >>>>>>>not free rhino.

Okay?

 Roknar wrote:
And don't go picking that apart. Rhinos being free is 1, ONE special rule, and yet it makes a HUUUGE difference.
So despite knowing just about everything, you're world is suddenly turned upside down.
But even then things get complicated, because in order to take that you need a specific list etc, etc.

Its not one special rule though its at least 2. You HAVE to bring certain units and those units get the option for a free Rhino. So the devs determine the EXACT units you bring and give you extra stuff to make up for the power loss else where. Which isn't what your arguing.

 Roknar wrote:
Point being (and my ONLY point), you simply cannot go ahead and make a decisive judgment about any unit in the game right now.
We don't have all the facts, all you can do at this point is be concerned and wait.

Okay tell you what I'll give you EVERYTHING. how will the balance occur after this point?

Your undoubtedly going to say well other units/formations will make up for the gap, because its the only thing you have left.

Here is your problem. How will the devs predict the exact units/formations people will take? They can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 John Prins wrote:
Where does anyone get the concept that two units that have similar points cost will do equally well against each other? Points levels always, always, always are a relative gauge of strength vs a broad variety of targets.

Compare Rubrics against 20 different targets of the same power level. Obviously we cannot just yet, but should not draw conclusions based on one or two available comparisons.

My point isn't that Rubrics Lose its the margin by which they lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
but we don't know EVERYTHING,

as for a unit with roughly the same predicted power level that should be a fairly hard counter to inceptor squads, I'll toss one out.

we know that a Inceptor squad costs 159 points for a squad of 3, with 2 assault bolters each. assuming the points stay approximatly the same, a Predator tank could be upgraded to a full las pred for that much. and that would SHRED the inceptor squad.

and ohh look! it's a unit 1k sons have!

or the demolisher tank. maybe a properly kitted out dreadnought? ohh I bet the helldrake'd fry it pretty easily. CSMs have plenty of tools at 150ish points to handle this.

What if I was an airborne infantryman and don't like tanks? What if I don't use tanks...at all. Why should I be forced to take certain units to have a viable army? How am I the one building the Army if the Devs basically create a system that harshly punishes me for not sticking to a army build they have decided is best?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Soul Reaper cannons can't be used until it's a 10 man unit. So a more comparative point is that with two Interceptor Squads. At that point it evens out.

Just because someone is named Thousand-Son-Sorcerer doesn't mean they know what's going on with Rubric Marines. They actually look good to me, and I'm hardcore along with my regular group.

Okay lets compare 10 Rubrics to 1 unit of 6 Inceptors

Deployment comes you put your squad on the table, I DS 18" away unload 36 shots into the unit. you lose 4-5 guys, you move up 5" your range is 13" you get 7 shots 4 at S 5 AP -3 resulting in 1.089 wounds then 4 bolter shots cause .431 wounds. Smite causes another .66 wounds. total of 2 wounds 1 guy lost. I move forward 10" shoot 30 more rounds take another 4 guys leaving 1-2 guys in the unit 3" charge .825 wounds lets assume you kill 1 guy with overwatch you still lose the unit and I am left with 66% of my unit.

MAYBE just MAYBE I do know what im talking about and there is a problem. Had that even crossed your mind?

No it hasnt, because you don't. When deployment comes, what happens if the Rubrics are in a Rhino? Why are Inceptors getting the first turn in this scenario?

Then the rubrics have the advantage-assuming they never leave the Rhino before turn 3, in which case the Inceptors get the drop on them anyway.

And how much PL is a Rhino? Because unless it's zero, the Rubrics out PL the Inceptors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Soul Reaper cannons can't be used until it's a 10 man unit. So a more comparative point is that with two Interceptor Squads. At that point it evens out.

Just because someone is named Thousand-Son-Sorcerer doesn't mean they know what's going on with Rubric Marines. They actually look good to me, and I'm hardcore along with my regular group.

Okay lets compare 10 Rubrics to 1 unit of 6 Inceptors

Deployment comes you put your squad on the table, I DS 18" away unload 36 shots into the unit. you lose 4-5 guys, you move up 5" your range is 13" you get 7 shots 4 at S 5 AP -3 resulting in 1.089 wounds then 4 bolter shots cause .431 wounds. Smite causes another .66 wounds. total of 2 wounds 1 guy lost. I move forward 10" shoot 30 more rounds take another 4 guys leaving 1-2 guys in the unit 3" charge .825 wounds lets assume you kill 1 guy with overwatch you still lose the unit and I am left with 66% of my unit.

MAYBE just MAYBE I do know what im talking about and there is a problem. Had that even crossed your mind?

No it hasnt, because you don't. When deployment comes, what happens if the Rubrics are in a Rhino? Why are Inceptors getting the first turn in this scenario?

Inceptors get first turn because they will never not get first turn.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

Official response from the design teAm is that it's essentially an avg of fully loaded and no options.

That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t kow enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

Inceptors get first turn because they will never not get first turn.

Yeah, you're probably right. There will never be any sort of reserve manipulation or interceptor mechanics. Definitely not any kind of mission stratagems that play into things, because that's not the sort of mission types power-level narrative games are based around at all.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Soul Reaper cannons can't be used until it's a 10 man unit. So a more comparative point is that with two Interceptor Squads. At that point it evens out.

Just because someone is named Thousand-Son-Sorcerer doesn't mean they know what's going on with Rubric Marines. They actually look good to me, and I'm hardcore along with my regular group.

Okay lets compare 10 Rubrics to 1 unit of 6 Inceptors

Deployment comes you put your squad on the table, I DS 18" away unload 36 shots into the unit. you lose 4-5 guys, you move up 5" your range is 13" you get 7 shots 4 at S 5 AP -3 resulting in 1.089 wounds then 4 bolter shots cause .431 wounds. Smite causes another .66 wounds. total of 2 wounds 1 guy lost. I move forward 10" shoot 30 more rounds take another 4 guys leaving 1-2 guys in the unit 3" charge .825 wounds lets assume you kill 1 guy with overwatch you still lose the unit and I am left with 66% of my unit.

MAYBE just MAYBE I do know what im talking about and there is a problem. Had that even crossed your mind?

No it hasnt, because you don't. When deployment comes, what happens if the Rubrics are in a Rhino? Why are Inceptors getting the first turn in this scenario?

Inceptors get first turn because they will never not get first turn.

Fine, then I decide that Rubric Marines will always start in a Rhino and you got to kill it to get to them.

Know the stats for the Rhino yet?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t know enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

Inceptors are faster. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors are better at range. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors have better deployment options. That is objective, and true.

We don't know what chapter tactics does either, or ATSKNF. On what basis would you ascribe them making those two weaker then their Chaos counterparts?

Most likely T7, somewhere from 7-10 wounds, 3+ armour save.

So, Inceptors, with their 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 go through. Likely not enough to do any real damage.

And then the Rubrics do what? Sit scared in their Rhino, and do paltry damage to the Inceptors, or get out, get the first volley, and then get crumped?

The problem as i see it can basically be boiled down to:
1 - thousand sons are tzeentch faction
2 - adeptus restartes are the new hotness

If you look at traditional gw behaviour (and not buy into the hype that things are different now), the problems seems fairly well established. We have the data cards for most of the information of the two units, the idea that comparisons can't be made yet are the same arguments i see every edition when something looks bad and the fans say you have to wait and see. No, sometimes things look bad because they're bad. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Most likely T7, somewhere from 7-10 wounds, 3+ armour save.

So, Inceptors, with their 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 go through. Likely not enough to do any real damage.

And then the Rubrics do what? Sit scared in their Rhino, and do paltry damage to the Inceptors, or get out, get the first volley, and then get crumped?

If they are all armed with warpflamers, they can easily kill the Inceptors with shooting followed by assault.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t know enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

Inceptors are faster. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors are better at range. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors have better deployment options. That is objective, and true.

We don't know what chapter tactics does either, or ATSKNF. On what basis would you ascribe them making those two weaker then their Chaos counterparts?

Guess it is inceptors, despite what a waste that is. Second Rubricae will be getting a 2+ save against anyone that chooses to drop interceptors in, that is objective and true. (Cover+rubric abilities)

Inceptors will get AT BEST a 4+ save against rubrics, that is objective and true.

An entire unit of inrceptors will get crumped by just the aspiring sorceror in CQC that is objective and true (2+ save against interceptors)

Inceptors can't shoot once in CQC, Rubrics CAN and with very good pistols, this is objective and true.

Increasing squad size to the next higher point will benefit rubricae VASTLY more than it will inceptors. This is objective and true.

Dropping in inceptors give them a 5/18 chance to make their initial charge which if they fail means they get wiped off the board by the rubricae next turn as they stand useless with their wangs in their hands, this is objective and true.

It's almost like different units have different strengths and weaknesses...

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t know enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

Inceptors are faster. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors are better at range. That is objective, and true.

Inceptors have better deployment options. That is objective, and true.

We don't know what chapter tactics does either, or ATSKNF. On what basis would you ascribe them making those two weaker then their Chaos counterparts?

What do all of the subfaction keywords do? The banner? The Legion and Chapter tactics?

Based on statlines alone, yes, it looks like the new kids might be better, but with a whole slew of rules left unknown we can,t fairly and objectively weigh anything. It's like trying to compare two different ducks you're seen a rough sketch of, but don,t know how much they weigh, what color they are, ect.

Yes we know generally what we have, but we lack specific details to make those generalities matter.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What if I was an airborne infantryman and don't like tanks? What if I don't use tanks...at all. Why should I be forced to take certain units to have a viable army? How am I the one building the Army if the Devs basically create a system that harshly punishes me for not sticking to a army build they have decided is best?

the predator isn't the ONLY answer, it's just obviously a "very good answer" and I'm sorry but GW is not obligated to make every unique in the codex equally good at everything just because you might not want to use the options they give you. The Predator's been a staple of all Space Marine armies since what 2nd? 3rd edition? it's why I choose it, if you play space Marines of ANY type, chances are pretty good you've got something that could handle em.

what some other stuff? alright let's see..

Helldrakes, forge fiends, Land Raiders (seriously a chaos Land Raider would shred these suckers), Obliterators might do alright depending on their stats. Chaos Terminators with Combi Plasmas,

andc yeah all these units I'm naming are HEAVY units, thats what you use to take out a unit like this. Inceptors are a small unit with high toughness and multiple wounds. you don't use your generic anti infantry guns to pop them, you sue your heavy weapons. for example, we saw Plague Marines can have 2 or 3 plasma guns a squad in 8th, plasma guns are gonna be what you use to drop units like inceptors.

Tyran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Most likely T7, somewhere from 7-10 wounds, 3+ armour save.

So, Inceptors, with their 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 go through. Likely not enough to do any real damage.

And then the Rubrics do what? Sit scared in their Rhino, and do paltry damage to the Inceptors, or get out, get the first volley, and then get crumped?

If they are all armed with warpflamers, they can easily kill the Inceptors with shooting followed by assault.

Inceptors drop in 18" away (no scatter).

Rubrics disembark 3" from their Rhino, move up 6", and end 9" away. Warpflamers help how?

Yeah? Did you take into account the fact that a inceptor unit cannot be expanded? That 3 models is as big as tbe unit gets? Or how about that since this thread has started the core rules have leaked and there is no longer contesting an objective. The unit with the most models within 3 inches of an objective has ownership.

Right. You didn't. Because we didnt know. And we still dont know everything. Until we have some real context for how it will actually work on the table you are trying to come to a absolute conclusion based on partial information.

I.e. a total waste of time.

Did the melee results take into account that apparently (according to rumor) when Rubrics roll 6s to hit in melee they get an extra attack (that doesn't make extra attacks)?

Busy with something else, so only reading atm, but warpfalmers allow them to advance and still flame. So 3 + 5 (not 6) + 3 on average so that's 11 plus the 8 inch range is enough to hit them and you only need to reach one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

Official response from the design teAm is that it's essentially an avg of fully loaded and no options.

That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t kow enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

We absolutely do know enough to make fair and objective statements.

We didn't guess any of the numbers, we used the hard data that has already been presented.

SilverAlien proved that they are strictly better against all targets. As well as we know they have better toughness and better mobility.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Most likely T7, somewhere from 7-10 wounds, 3+ armour save.

So, Inceptors, with their 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 go through. Likely not enough to do any real damage.

And then the Rubrics do what? Sit scared in their Rhino, and do paltry damage to the Inceptors, or get out, get the first volley, and then get crumped?

If they are all armed with warpflamers, they can easily kill the Inceptors with shooting followed by assault.

Inceptors drop in 18" away (no scatter).

Rubrics disembark 3" from their Rhino, move up 6", and end 9" away. Warpflamers help how?

Advancing and shooting thanks to assault weapons rules.!

Huh. Okay, so 3" disembark, 5" move, meaning they need a 2+ advance to hit the Inceptors, with 5d6 (17.5) S4 Rend-2 hits, or 4 wounds.

So even in the best case scenario (they have a rhino (putting their PL above the Inceptors), the Inceptors choose to go after them, they don't flub the advance roll) they don't manage to wipe out the Inceptors with shooting.

Is it confirmed you can advance and charge?

You cannot advance and charge. Genestealers are the only unit we know is an exception to that rule.

 Talamare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

Official response from the design teAm is that it's essentially an avg of fully loaded and no options.

That said, comparing two units when we don't know all there rules (like what the standard does) is silly. We don,t kow enough to make fair, objective statements about the strengths or weaknesses of any unit over another yet.

We absolutely do know enough to make fair and objective statements.

We didn't guess any of the numbers, we used the hard data that has already been presented.

SilverAlien proved that they are strictly better against all targets. As well as we know they have better toughness and better mobility.

Really? So... What bonuses do Thousand Sons get from their LT?

What about from being Tzeentch?

What bonuses or penalties do the Inceptors get from their CT?

What does the Thousand Sons banner do?

Are we accounting that 1 in 6 attacks by CSM in melee get an extra attack?

Why aren't we looking at how many wounds from shooting the Inceptors will take at 19-24"? You know, the range they can't shoot but be shot for situations where they don't start inside their range band (perhaps they landed and wiped out some cultists and are now focusing on the Rubrics)?

Why assume they make the charge when averages mean they need to roll a 9+ to make the charge and even with a reroll are less likely to make it on turn one instead of being Overwatched, then shot again the next turn and counter-charged?

I don't see the objectivity of having all information present and accounted for, not fairness by accounting for situations that would hurt the Inceptors. Everything in this thread is geared towards supporting the assumption that in a straight fit the Inceptors will ALWAYS have and advantage despite the fact that it's impossible for that to actually be true.

 Lance845 wrote:
You cannot advance and charge. Genestealers are the only unit we know is an exception to that rule.

Gotcha. So even with Warpflamers and everything going right (admittedly, "everything" in this case is rolling a 2+ on a d6, so it's not HARD, but still) and assuming Inceptors have no cover, they still only take two down.

Edit: For those who are saying "We don't know what the Icon Of Flame/Legion Rules/Chapter Tactics" do, please, post reasonable guesses as to what they do that will actually make a significant difference.

In theory, Legion rules could be "This model hits and wounds on a 2+, rerolling, against Primaris Marines, and increases their AP value by 2 points". But that's not gonna happen. So what do you think they'll be, to make such a huge difference?

Because right now, we have most of their stats. Not all-but most.