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So I was just reading the new Community article of the Ultima founding and noticed the asterisk next to "some Chapters are confirmed as destroyed" and am left to wonder if this is really what the community wants. (The asterisk referred to the following: "Don’t worry – none of the big ones, though Magnus gave it a pretty good go at Fenris…")

I don't play Space Marines, but if I did I wouldn't mind if they killed or nearly-killed a chapter. IMHO I think it'd just add more flavor and character to that chapter, after all, they basically did the same thing for the Lamenters, and everyone likes them. You can still play as Lamenters. The idea is that there are just a few of them left, or that you're fielding them at a time prior to their losses (or death). But I'm curious to know if other people feel the same about this. What if the Blood Angels and their successors actually got destroyed by the Tyranids? What if GW said that any narrative Blood Angels players will now need to set up their games prior to a certain point in the 40k timeline? Would that bother you?

EDIT: In case you couldn't tell, by "chapter" I mean founding chapter.

You cannot kill off a founding chapter.. unfortunately..


Even though technically you could argue that Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are no longer a thing..

They are just too engrained with the story of the Imperium

The 2nd founding onwards.. no one really cares they can be destroyed on a whim and people will barely notice...

The Blood Angels were always going to win Baal.. that is what is expected... GW just did it in possibly the lamest way possible.. >_>

The crimson fists whole schtick was to be undermanned. Iirc they had 300 marines in the last edition, and they where fairly popular.

The lamenters are a special case. They originated in a short story from black library im the anthology "let the galaxy burn". In said short story their whole purpose was to lose horribly to Tyranids. After this gw thought "Oh, a chapter that lost something, let's make them the biggest losers ever" and so the Lamenters found themselves losing or joining the wrong side at all times, and people love them for it. I wish gw took some learning from it and wrote in a few more straight up Space marine losses. They happen, it's just rare to read about them, unless it's from the winners perspective.

GW will probably just off some near unheard of chapters like the Reclaimers or Mantis warriors to have the story progress and make the situation seem more dire.

 Quarterdime wrote:
So I was just reading the new Community article of the Ultima founding and noticed the asterisk next to "some Chapters are confirmed as destroyed" and am left to wonder if this is really what the community wants. (The asterisk referred to the following: "Don’t worry – none of the big ones, though Magnus gave it a pretty good go at Fenris…")

I don't play Space Marines, but if I did I wouldn't mind if they killed or nearly-killed a chapter. IMHO I think it'd just add more flavor and character to that chapter, after all, they basically did the same thing for the Lamenters, and everyone likes them. You can still play as Lamenters. The idea is that there are just a few of them left, or that you're fielding them at a time prior to their losses (or death). But I'm curious to know if other people feel the same about this. What if the Blood Angels and their successors actually got destroyed by the Tyranids? What if GW said that any narrative Blood Angels players will now need to set up their games prior to a certain point in the 40k timeline? Would that bother you?

EDIT: In case you couldn't tell, by "chapter" I mean founding chapter.

YOU might not mind, but people who P[LAY space marines might. the 1st founding Legions arer a pretty big part of space Marine identify, even if you're running a sucessor you proably have a favorite, this applies to chaos as well, for years GW attempted to down pl;ay the chaos legions, minimize them while playing up people like the red cosairs, the crimson slaughter, fans pushed back against it.

people like the old first founding stuff, they have a gravatias and a history, the idea that they've fought in every conflict the IoM has ever fought.

sides killing them off would likely just see the chapter ressurected by their sucessors. we've seen it happen before


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nerak wrote:
The crimson fists whole schtick was to be undermanned. Iirc they had 300 marines in the last edition, and they where fairly popular.

The lamenters are a special case. They originated in a short story from black library im the anthology "let the galaxy burn". In said short story their whole purpose was to lose horribly to Tyranids. After this gw thought "Oh, a chapter that lost something, let's make them the biggest losers ever" and so the Lamenters found themselves losing or joining the wrong side at all times, and people love them for it. I wish gw took some learning from it and wrote in a few more straight up Space marine losses. They happen, it's just rare to read about them, unless it's from the winners perspective.

GW will probably just off some near unheard of chapters like the Reclaimers or Mantis warriors to have the story progress and make the situation seem more dire.

and when it's from the winner's prespective it's useally "bob the chaos lord killed a space marine, then he killed another, boy he killed a lot of space marines" where space marines are suddenly being treated like guardsmen

Actually there are 2 founding chapters that are killed off. The lost legions. They don't exist.

 Lance845 wrote:
Actually there are 2 founding chapters that are killed off. The lost legions. They don't exist.

don't count as we've never seen them. but they did kill off the Imperial Fists, (only to, as I said, have their second founding chapters ressurect them) I suppose they could do that to others but I suspect after the war of the beast, the shock value of doing it would be gone

 Lance845 wrote:
Actually there are 2 founding chapters that are killed off. The lost legions. They don't exist.

Yeah that doesn't really count..

I kinda think they did the whole 2 expunged thing because a lot of their old material had only the 18 chapter logos.. (Space Crusade and such)

But then some stories had 20 Primarahcs

 Quarterdime wrote:
So I was just reading the new Community article of the Ultima founding and noticed the asterisk next to "some Chapters are confirmed as destroyed" and am left to wonder if this is really what the community wants. (The asterisk referred to the following: "Don’t worry – none of the big ones, though Magnus gave it a pretty good go at Fenris…")

I don't play Space Marines, but if I did I wouldn't mind if they killed or nearly-killed a chapter. IMHO I think it'd just add more flavor and character to that chapter, after all, they basically did the same thing for the Lamenters, and everyone likes them. You can still play as Lamenters. The idea is that there are just a few of them left, or that you're fielding them at a time prior to their losses (or death). But I'm curious to know if other people feel the same about this. What if the Blood Angels and their successors actually got destroyed by the Tyranids? What if GW said that any narrative Blood Angels players will now need to set up their games prior to a certain point in the 40k timeline? Would that bother you?

EDIT: In case you couldn't tell, by "chapter" I mean founding chapter.

Not much of a spoiler but from the sound of it Lamenters finally kicked the bucket. We were the only ones who didn't show up for the party at Baal when even heretic chapters showed up to pitch in.

Granted, GW never explicitly states we're dead, just that we didn't show up, so who knows, maybe there's some hope yet that they are still alive and just hopelessly cut off somewhere.

Actually, a first founder HAS been wiped out. That would be

As we see, even when shown with an actual canon destruction of even a First Founder, they are kept alive in setting for propaganda purposes. If the Ultramarines were wiped out for some reason, it stands to reason that one of their successors, most likely Genesis Chapter, would adopt the Ultramarines' homeworld, territory, iconography and general being.

TL;DR you can't kill off the First Founders, not even in universe.

What Smudge said. Even if all existing chapters of a Founding Chapter were to be destroyed, Adeptus Mechanicus still has a large reservoir of Geneseed in storage, which is taken via tithes to monitor chapter health and for the purposes of founding new chapters. In the event one of them was irrecoverably destroyed, they can simply re-create the chapter so long as the geneseed is intact. The only way to truly kill off a founding chapter is if they invaded Mars itself and destroyed all genetic records of the Primarch in question. And good luck with that.

 Lance845 wrote:
Actually there are 2 founding chapters that are killed off. The lost legions. They don't exist.

Good Imperial Citizens don't mention them, by the way, here is bob, he is with the inquisition, he would like to have a word with you.

Multiple later founding chapters have been reduced to double digit troop count (celestial lions and crimson are the two I know of) and come back. Simply put, so long as one member of the chapter was left the imperium would likely still try to rebuild it, given the morale loss losing a first founding chapter would entail.

The raptors are another example, a chapter that literally disappeared for a few millennia due to combat losses/loss of their homeworld. Assuming the new raptors are actual descendants of that chapter and not alpha legion who used some of geneseed stolen from the raven guard to infiltrate the imperium.

Anyways, the point being you have to really really work at it to kill off any chapter for good, much less a first founding chapter.

Actually, unless a Chapter is really popular (like the Flesh Tearers) or a First Founder, it's a tossup whether or not they will be destroyed in the fluff.

Abaddon apparently killed off 3 unnamed chapters during his Black Crusade, the Tyranids nommed at least one (I think). a good few were declared traitors during the badab war and executed, and so forth.

But if you are named or if you're popular (and especially if you got a special character model), then the chapter's plot armor is second only to the Ultramarines. Surprisingly, this also applies to the traitor legions. Despite over 10k years of raiding the imperium and having sporatic support at best over those years, none of the 9 traitor legions are anywhere close to being destroyed, even though a lot of them barely numbered higher than a contemporary chapter during the heresy and have been infighting for most of that time too.

 Quarterdime wrote:
So I was just reading the new Community article of the Ultima founding and noticed the asterisk next to "some Chapters are confirmed as destroyed" and am left to wonder if this is really what the community wants. (The asterisk referred to the following: "Don’t worry – none of the big ones, though Magnus gave it a pretty good go at Fenris…")

I don't play Space Marines, but if I did I wouldn't mind if they killed or nearly-killed a chapter. IMHO I think it'd just add more flavor and character to that chapter, after all, they basically did the same thing for the Lamenters, and everyone likes them. You can still play as Lamenters. The idea is that there are just a few of them left, or that you're fielding them at a time prior to their losses (or death). But I'm curious to know if other people feel the same about this. What if the Blood Angels and their successors actually got destroyed by the Tyranids? What if GW said that any narrative Blood Angels players will now need to set up their games prior to a certain point in the 40k timeline? Would that bother you?

EDIT: In case you couldn't tell, by "chapter" I mean founding chapter.

I agree with your suggestion because it would truly show how horrific the universe is if the warriors as great as the space marines or greater one suffered such horrific loses.
They say the 40k universe is a horrific place beyond belief then a horrifically terrible loss like this would be more then fitting in such a horrible place .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actually, a first founder HAS been wiped out. That would be

Spoiler:

the Imperial Fists, who were completely destroyed during the War of the Beast. However, the reason that we still see Imperial Fists in M41 is that one of their successors, the Fists Exemplar, took up the image, heritage and mantle of their forebears for propaganda purposes.

As we see, even when shown with an actual canon destruction of even a First Founder, they are kept alive in setting for propaganda purposes. If the Ultramarines were wiped out for some reason, it stands to reason that one of their successors, most likely Genesis Chapter, would adopt the Ultramarines' homeworld, territory, iconography and general being.

TL;DR you can't kill off the First Founders, not even in universe.

Is this the usual Black Library garbage?

I thought that if they were going to bring back Sanguinius the story should mainly be about the Blood Angels being killed off in droves. Then when there are 100 of them left The Angel returns and saves them.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actually, a first founder HAS been wiped out. That would be

Spoiler:

the Imperial Fists, who were completely destroyed during the War of the Beast. However, the reason that we still see Imperial Fists in M41 is that one of their successors, the Fists Exemplar, took up the image, heritage and mantle of their forebears for propaganda purposes.

As we see, even when shown with an actual canon destruction of even a First Founder, they are kept alive in setting for propaganda purposes. If the Ultramarines were wiped out for some reason, it stands to reason that one of their successors, most likely Genesis Chapter, would adopt the Ultramarines' homeworld, territory, iconography and general being.

TL;DR you can't kill off the First Founders, not even in universe.

Is this the usual Black Library garbage?

Well, I've never read the novels that primarily deal with it and didn't know about that specifically, but the things mentioned (the imperial fists legion never entirely splitting up with the feast of blades and last wall protocol serving as links) are established outside of the novels. So it's certainly not impossible, or even improbable, that something like this could've occurred canonically. In short, it's black library but not the bad fluff ignoring black library.

Note that, from what I can find on the wiki, the chapter didn't actually replace them outright, they merely formed the core of the re-founding, with all other successors also contributing. Which makes the fluff more acceptable to me, it was the various chapters coming together temporarily to fight a major battle, then working together to recreate their parent chapter.

Besides, in-game one can take a maximum number of Scout squads, take Scout Bikers and have one or two Vanguard or Sternguard squads, paint them as Scythes of the Emperor, and as such claim to play a chapter (almost) completely destroyed and as such in the process of rebuilding.
Besides, the Imperium is in a constant war. I wouldn't be surprised, like some have already said, that certain chapters have been destroyed time and again, only to be replaced by successors taking their names and heraldry, or a complete revamp by Mars.

"Weren't all the Blood Angels blonde haired examples of beauty and perfection due to their geneseed? Why is there an entire company with black hair all of a sudden?"
"Well, you see mr. Inquisitor, Baal came under attack by a Hive Fleet the size of a stellar sector."
"So?"
"With your permission, mr. Inquisitor. The Magos Propagandis thought it would be a good idea... I hesitate to say so..."
"Yes?"
"Baal was destroyed, mr. Inquisitor. Not a single Blood Angel survived. Some of the Monster-Beasts in the new waves of the Hive Fleets are suddenly blond-haired and beautiful."
"Then who or what are those red power-armored giants I am looking at there?"
"Cooks, thieves, beggars, laundrymen, electricians, basically anybody the Magos Propagandis could find to fill the power armor. It is a matter of seeing numbers, my Lord. Numbers. The Magos Propagandis thought it a bad idea to simply state to the general populace that the Blood Angels were killed to a man. Marine. All of them."
"And why does Baal suddenly have an extra moon?"
"Mr. Inquisitor, my Lord. The Magos Propagandis had another idea too. He picked a planet looking like Baal. The general populace is too stupid to realise an extra moon appeared over Baal. It is only your benevelent intellect and accumen to notice such a minor detail. That is why this galactic map, labeled '7th edition', shows Baal here, and this new map labeled '8th' edition shows Baal at another point, some 149 lightyears further."
"The Blood Angels aren't the Blood Angels? Baal isn't Baal?"
"Indeed mr. Inquisitor. It is a ruse to keep the populace in line. This way the common man believes their heroes to be invincible."
"Clever. Now talk to me about why the Dark Angels fortress home, The Rock, seems to jump all over the place faster than their Warp Drives could ever propell them."
"Well, mr. Inquisitor, that's a whole different story of betrayal, and guile..."

actually it's been stated as outright cannon that foundings sometimes reuse the hereladry and names of previously destroyed chapters. somnething that the Ultima founding is also noted as doing.

BrianDavion wrote:
actually it's been stated as outright cannon that foundings sometimes reuse the hereladry and names of previously destroyed chapters. somnething that the Ultima founding is also noted as doing.

This. The main reasons for creating new chapters is 1. To replace a destroyed chapter or 2. To guard a certain region.

If I remember there were two chapters that ended up having the exact same name and heraldry due to a clerical error in the administrator, where they accidentally reported the first chapter as being destroyed and thus the name was "free" for them to use on another chapter. I think it got kinda awkward when the two met and thought each other were imposters until they cleared it up, to which then they decided that the newer chapter would get a new name and heraldry while the older one was reinstated in the records as being alive.