Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ion riptide are now weakballs imho, the nerf to blasts makes them fairly meh, especially as they used target densely packed stuff (using EWO, or stuff from blown up transports) or large hordes where 5-6 hits was easy to get, and now its 1D6 :'). However, the other cannon still has plenty of hits but on the whole riptides are more expensive, but useless, dunno about that yet.

 mortetvie wrote:
Many things got more expensive but some stayed the same or got cheaper-like Drones or certain Suit builds.

For example, I used to run a double Plasma/target lock/Bonding Knife unit with 3 suits and 6 Gun Drones. That was about 246 points in 7th.

In current rules, that same load out would be 240 points (suit, 2x Plasma and 2x Gun Drones)-the unit is actually cheaper because Plasma and drones are cheaper and no need for Target Lock since you can freely split fire. I'm going to run the same unit in 8th but add a 3rd Plasma and 2 drones so I can have 3-6 Plasma shots per suit. The fact that Suits can now have 3 ranged weapons and fire all of them is HUGE.

The Missile Pod variant got more expensive (90 in 8th compared to 58 in 7th) but I am excited to try out a 2x Missile Pod unit with Advanced Targeting to give the Missile Pods an extra AP. Being able to wound many vehicles on a 3-4+ and at the worst a 5+, regardless of Toughness, with -2 armor and d3 Hull each shot makes them still a formidable anti armor/mc unit IMO.

Also looking forward to trying out suits with double Fusion, Burst cannon or Flamer set-ups and Target Lock so I can Advance and still shoot those Assault weapons without penalty.

Regarding Broadsides, yes Broadsides did get A LOT more expensive. They are currently just over 3x the cost (202 for 2x HYMP and 2x SMS whereas they used to be 65 base, 70 w/Target Locks) but each Broadside noq has 3x the wounds and DOUBLE the shots and built in target lock. They also can have Drones freely take hits for them now.

Overall, I'm pretty excited to try out my all crisis suit/Broadside list.

Note that many here dislike plas suits now for several reasons:
-Vespids became incredibly point efficient, at 15 per 2 S5 AP 2 shots
-Plasma now wounds T4 on 5+, while most vehicles got T7 or higher, so its S6 is in many cases not enough to make a difference
-Finally, commanders are very cheap for what they do, and offer 4 mount points, all of which can be weapons, with a BS of 2+, with the additional advantages of being characters.
Now, personally I feel that crisis suits offer their own advantages, but to each their own.

As for broadsides, it's fairly simple - they got priced as main battle tanks, because their firepower is comparable to theirs - and even superior in many cases. GW raised the broadsides resilience to light tank level more or less to make up for the increased cost.
Overall, they are not a bad deal, just think about them as you'd think of a less mobile, more shooty hammerhead that can be taken in squads. And you can give them Advanced Targeting Systems and Target locks for a very fun unit.

Colonel Cabbage wrote:

 Talamare wrote:


Seeker Missiles - ONLY HIT ON A 6?!!?!? COME ON! ... Then again Mortal Wounds... I think this needs some further study.


Drone Controller and Overwatch... Overwatch only hits on 6s, but Drone Controller doesn't improve BS or whatever, it only adds 1 to hits... I think it works on Overwatch~

Markerlights let you fire the Seeker Missiles at full BS. I think it's a good idea to do it this way, otherwise they would be OP and people would spam those mortal wounds. They may do so anyway, you only need 2 markerlights for it.

I think Markerlights are pretty good generally as they stack effects. Bonuses should be rarer in 8th than 7th.

Interesting Overwatch thought. Will need further study.

Why do you think about Riptides? I'm actually not a Tau player but I'm checking them out as my friend is freaking out that they have been nerfed and overcosted so much they are useless now.

I didn't judge them too heavily since I didn't want to bother figuring out the points for all the different guns it has...

People are complaining that Riptide are trash because Nova always causes a wound... but I don't see why I can't just pawn that wound off on a drone with Saviour Protocol... (Sacrificing Drones for the Greater Good! MOAR MICROCHIPS FOR THE MICROCHIP GOD!)
I like the fact that Nova is reliable now. Also 2 support without losing any guns is crazy potential.

Having played these new tau rules (vs necrons) I can say the following:

I found broadsides to be really really good. The points increase while orginally making me go "whaaaaaaat?" is justified. Plasma/railrifle broadsides are the way to go. They annihilate characters and vehicles
Hammerheads are pretty weak still. Better off with a broadsides. The railgun being Str10 isnt really much of a difference over the rifles str8. Submunitions and ion cannons arent worth using due to blast changes.
Blast weapons in general are way too weak.
The riptide is overcosted and undergunned. This is a a combination of kneejerk nerf batting and as mentioned above the overall weakness of "blast" weapons
Fire warriors are very good for their points value. They threaten everything
Crisis teams are back. With tough 5 and an extra wound, being able to fly out of melee, and the changes to the wound chart they are alot more survivable and also since they can fly into terrain they can make much more use of cover. Advanced targeting system on Plasma/missile or multi tracker on dual plasma/fusion.
Pathfinders have dropped a point but due to makerlight changes are a bit less valuable
Markerlight changes are a mixed bag. They basically mean 1 enemy unit (or sometimes 2) are going to DIE but nothing else effected. since markerlights will buff other markerlight units youre best off splitting your markers into as many MSU as you can to give the second marking unit rerolls of 1 to hit. The character targeting changes means you will almost never be able to buff your shooting against characters
Vespid are usable!
Kroot have a purpose as a melee/scout/annoyance unit as they are very cheap for what they do and can disengage from melee to allow you to shoot up a unit they were holding up
While at first I didnt like the sound of the drone changes, theyre actually really fun and very useful. Multiple 2-model drone units from various squads increases the surviability of your suits massively and really helps to shield from melee units
Enemies assaulting from transports/reserve is scary but can be countered with proper drone/kroot placement and supporting fire
Sunsharks are very promising.
Razorshark is the new vespid
Sniper drones are overcosted and undergunned
The commander can put out a serious amount of firepower with a targeting system. His survivability has reduced slightly with the loss of iridium armour but base T5 and cover as well as drone use makes him just as hard to kill. I find dual plasma,targeting system, shield generator is pretty good
Invuln saves are very important with the new AP system, hence why the shield generator is well worth it.
Crisis suits being able to melee fliers is brilliant
Marker drones need drone controller support
Overall I actually like the changes far more on the table than when I saw them in the book. Im really happy kroot are back to having a chance in melee, also they are quite fast and can shoot their rapid fire weapons and charge so theyre much better. Shapers are worth taking with them as well. Still not sure about breachers. I think youre stilll better off with strike teams. Cant see why you would ever want to use a razorshark. I think skyrays have taken a bit of a pounding from the seeker changes, They might have situational use but theyre not a good AA platform anymore as a maximum of 6 mortal wounds if all the rolling goes right wont kill any fliers.If they did D3 damage per hit and destroyer missiles did D3+3 that might be a bit better.

HRR broadsides are fairly similar to hamemrheads in firepower and damage, to be honest - too much, in my opinion - very similar point cost, the broadside has 2 S8 attacks at BS 4+ while the Hammerhead has one S10 at BS3+. Statistically is fairly similar, but the broadsides can score two wounds (x D6) while the hammer head can't. Other bonifiers, like markerlight support are going to be better for the broadside than for the hammerhead

The hammerhead is more mobile, but as the railgun is a heavy weapon, he's saddled with the negative modifier if it moves, while the broadsides can take a target lock. The railgun has slightly more versatility in the second fire mode, but I would say that this does not compensate against the broadsides' two shots.

Arguably, Longstrike can improve the efficiency of a group of hammerheads quite a bit, while there isn't an equivalent for broadsides, so there is that.

Finally, the hammerhead should in theory be more durable, but being able to redirect wounds to drones, and a 2+ armor save, makes broadsides very durable as well

Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.

My overall impression of the new Tau is that the meek inherited the earth. Fire Warriors of both types, Drones, and Pathfinders all got a massive boost. On the other hand, our mechs got rocked pretty hard. Riptides appear basically unusable. Stormsurges are actually pretty good still, by comparison with the field, but getting slowed to 6" move really hampers the blastcannon badly. Broadsides still spew firepower like crazy but are glass cannons that'll have to heavily rely on drone sacrifices to stay functional.

Vespids do look to be pretty useful for the first time ever.

Note that the Stormsurge has the vehicle keyword rather than the battlesuit keyword, so it can't be protected by drones, unlike the riptide and the ghostkeel.

In general, it seems to be a common trend: infantry types got boosted and big toys nerfed (with some exceptions, like fexes) - and the general rules also favor infantry over big dudes, with things like controlling objectives being dependant on number of bodies or blast weapons being converted do "heavy D3" or "Heavy D6" that also work against single models.

A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?

Well, without actually testing in play, it's hard to say, but my initial reaction is positive - I like what I see. There are some duds, like commanders rendering crisis suit teams fairly obsolete on paper, but I don't think I'd consider the codex so broken that it needs a fix ASAP.

Colonel Cabbage wrote:


Markerlights let you fire the Seeker Missiles at full BS. I think it's a good idea to do it this way, otherwise they would be OP and people would spam those mortal wounds. They may do so anyway, you only need 2 markerlights for it.

How would Seekers be OP if they are expendable??

Bobug wrote:
Having played these new tau rules (vs necrons) I can say the following:

most important question... who won? was it a toe-to-toe game?

Shadeseraph wrote:
Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.

Rail Rifles are too expensive to work with pathfinders (a quite fragile profile). Ion Rifles, on the other hand, seems to be a good option for them

 carldooley wrote:
A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?

no codex now! first codexes of each edition are generally terribad. let outs be 4th or 5th in line

I'm pretty optimistic about it.

Colonel Cabbage wrote:

Shadeseraph wrote:
Honestly, though, Darkstrider with a squad of pathfinders with rail rifles is more efficient than both.

Rail Rifles are too expensive to work with pathfinders (a quite fragile profile). Ion Rifles, on the other hand, seems to be a good option for them

I though the same initially, but rail rifles are expensive for a reason. Namely, d3 wounds and potential extra mortal wound along -4 ap. The ap alone wouldn't have been enough, but they are really cheap for the kind of hurt they can put on bigger targets.

Also, pathfinders are as fragile as drones let them be

I'm disappointed that Riptides and Broadsides, to a lesser extent, got beaten so hard. They were honestly two of my favorite models, and I doubt they'll find their way into my lists. On the other hand, I'm quite excited about having a troop-heavy force. I tried to make that work in 7th with some success, but the strategy was pretty reliant on the bigger suits killing hard targets. Now that S5 is a killy sweet spot, Fire Warriors shine like diamonds. Ditto Gun Drones and their 4 shots per 8pt model.

Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... is it just me or is Tau... kinda ... no longer the worst thing ever when it comes to melee?

like...

Some of these models look like they might actually do fine against non-melee dedicated troops.

 Talamare wrote:
Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)

As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.

Gotta sell those accumulated stocks, man!

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)

As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.

Gotta sell those accumulated stocks, man!

...
They are in the same box

 Talamare wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)

As every edition changes, stuff that people bought/used a lot get hammered down, while bad stuff get an uplift. Sky Rays were used by many players, while Hammerheads not so much.

Gotta sell those accumulated stocks, man!

...
They are in the same box

That's the trick! You'll still sell a lot of boxes, but now people will kit out the other option inside!

3x Flamers -- 069 points - 08" Assault3d6 s4 ap-0 1D, auto hit 3x Airburst - 072 points - 18" Assault3d6 s4 ap-0 1D, no los 3x Burst ---- 072 points - 18" Assault12- s5 ap-0 1D, 3x Plasma --- 075 points - 24" Rapid F1-- s6 ap-3 1D 3x Ion ------ 096 points - 18" Assault9-- s7 ap-1 1D, overcharge 3x Fusion --- 105 points - 18" Assault3-- s8 ap-4 d6D, melta 3x Missile -- 114 points - 36" Assault6-- s7 ap-1 d3D

Stealth Suit Team with 3 models is 90 points and is basically equivalent in fire power to a single 3x Burst Crisis
For 18 points more, you get 2x the wounds, and force a -1 accuracy on opponents in exchange for losing 1 toughness.

Can anyone explain why the Sky Ray costs more than the Hammerhead when it's effectively a Devilfish that traded people for explosive friends. (and I guess 1 wound)

They're actually the exact same price once you factor in wargear. A Sky Ray with 2 Markerlights, 6 Seeker Missiles, and 2 SMS costs the same as a Hammerhead with a Railgun and 2 SMS.

 carldooley wrote:
A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?

To be honest - have a bit of trepidation for the tau - other armies are "wow, can't wait to try this" ...with my tau I am feeling "how am I going to get this to work".

I think we can manage - but it is beginning to feel a bit like 5th edition again. Of course, some of this comes from that some of my personal favorite units feel ....disadvantaged or over costed now (Crisis teams, Skyrays, etc.). I just hope forgeworld does not mess up my beautiful XV9 suits (I want strong units, not garbage, and not OP).

I was never a riptide spammer (I have one) but feel it got hit a bit too hard. Going to give Tau a shot and see how well I can make them work.

Oh, there is one silver lining - I am confident now people won't think I play tau because they are OP anymore....

Any comments or info on:

Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above

 Da-Rock wrote:
Any comments or info on:

Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above

Stealth Suits look... okay. Same with both Ghostkeels and Shadowsun. However none of them really have any synergy, other than being able to have Steath Suits take the hit for Shadowsun on a 2+, which drones can do automatically.

All of them have a rule that makes them harder to hit, which is nice, but they've lost out significantly on maneuverability. In addition Shadowsun's bonus Kauyon fights against the Stealth Suit's built in Target Lock, as they want to Advance, not remain stationary.

 Da-Rock wrote:
Any comments or info on:

Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above

I plan to run 3 stealth suits (mostly just for fun). They put out a decent number of shots and are a relatively cheap way to get another fusion blaster.

As for ghostkeel ans shadow sun, they aren't bad choices - they just don't do anything that another unit can do for signicantly less points.

Shadowsun is insane with his Kauyon rule.

 Galas wrote:
Shadowsun is insane with his Kauyon rule.

Man, we now Tau people do look similar, but Shadowsun isn't a pal

Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.

Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.

Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?

Broadsides got the biggest price hike of the entire codex. 3-man units are now pratically impossible to justify.

Indeed, Riptides will have a -1 to hit if they move. But the new target lock allows it to ignore such penalty.

 Da-Rock wrote:
Any comments or info on:

Stealth suits
Ghostkheels with stealth suits
Shadowsun with the above

From what I saw the Ghostkheel drones affect any uint within 3" so they can buff anyone with the Stealth Suits you would get -2 to hit.

I plan to start collecting Tau and grabbing up 3 Ghostkheels 2-4 units of Fire Warriors and as many Pathfinder units as i can fit into slots. Use HQs and Heavy Supp to place some ML and then give most Pathfinder squads either Rail Rifles or Ion Rifles and have an in your face Tau Army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Gotta say, I was pretty stunned by the broadside price hike. hell, I think they're more expensive than deff dreads now. And not much better? Guess they went from 2 wounds to 6, but not much shootier.

Riptide price hike hurts too. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it can't move and shoot heavy weapons normally?

They have as many wounds as you want them to have, and shiled drones will be good for them. gak they will be useful in general.

 carldooley wrote:
A question then: Are tau players content with the intermediate rulebook dex, and willing to wait on a new 8th ed Tau Codex, or do they want a new codex immediately?

I have wanted a new Codex since 2009. Still waiting...

Why tanks can't take Target Lock?

Mont'ka clarification

"Can both advance and shoot as if they haven't moved."

So does that mean they can Advance and Shoot

As well as that shooting will be considered that they have remained stationary the entire time?