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so far I've notice that Razorbacks appear to be the best points value for transports and maybe even as heavy support too.

at 90 points for a Razorback with twin heavy bolters, storm bolter and hunter killer missile, it seems to be a better option than a Rhino at 78 points with 2 storm bolters and hunter killer missile. While the capacity of the razorback is less and it can't repair itself on a lucky roll, it's only 12 points more for 2 heavy bolters of fire from the top. Moreover the Rhino can't have infantry fire from the top hatches anymore. Unless you like to field full squads of 10, it seems like the better option.

Also, a Predator with twin-linked lascannons, lascannon sponsons and storm bolter would come in at 204, whereas you could have 2 Razorbacks with twin linked lascannons and storm bolters for 234. Now the Razorback is 1 wound less than a Predator, but otherwise the stats are the same and in this case for 30 more points you get 9 more overall wounds (between both Razorbacks) and the ability to ferry troops if needed. Also, the tactical advantage of having more than one target and not having all your eggs in one basket.

Now I'm new / getting back in to 40k after a long hiatus. Am I missing something here or is the Razorback the tank of the future?

I definitely think the Razorbacks seem good.

I also think Missile Launchers might come back. They cost the same as a las cannon, but they are still quite good vs MCs/Vehicles/elite units (only 1 less S and AP than the Las), and the frag missiles also seem good against infantry (D6 S4 AP- W1 shots).

Besides that, everything with a jump pack seems good, most notably death company with a Lemartes charge reroll.

Because of the new 9" away deepstrike rules, I also think that bubblewrap units will be good. IG, Kroot, whatever else will all be important when it comes to keeping the first turn charges off of your valuable units.

I think those are most of my initial thoughts.

I think it'll depend a lot on how the space marines play. A razorback seems stronger (115 for two LCs and transport of 6) but maybe getting more troops to the front line faster is a better strategy in 8th.

I definitely think that the twin linked rules (particularly the Twin-linked Assault Cannon) could make the razorback a lot more formidable.

I also really think sniper scouts will get more use in 8th (90 points for cloaks + snipers and 5 scouts with choice to hit characters + potential mortal wounds).

I also think that currently predators are a lot stronger now due to the split fire rules (which the razorback can't take as much advantage of)

I want to hope tac Marines become useful again, my over all feeling is since we're gonna see more infantry they will

BrianDavion wrote:
I want to hope tac Marines become useful again, my over all feeling is since we're gonna see more infantry they will

They are one of the few units that did not go up in price, so i think they will be good for that reason, but i think there will be some change in how they are played.

They are not as useful in rhinos since there are no more fire points, so i think we will see more with heavy weapons (since you can move and still shoot with -1 to hit), and more just generally walking around shooting things. Compared to some of the other choices, namely vehicles, marines in general are actually a somewhat cheap, reasonably resilient platform for heavy weapons.

jcd386 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I want to hope tac Marines become useful again, my over all feeling is since we're gonna see more infantry they will

They are one of the few units that did not go up in price, so i think they will be good for that reason, but i think there will be some change in how they are played.

They are not as useful in rhinos since there are no more fire points, so i think we will see more with heavy weapons (since you can move and still shoot with -1 to hit), and more just generally walking around shooting things. Compared to some of the other choices, namely vehicles, marines in general are actually a somewhat cheap, reasonably resilient platform for heavy weapons.

yeah, I'm building a devestator squad with missile launchers as we speak I think they'll be good at clearing chaff. I'm thinking if I can squeeze a predator into my list simply to attract the heavy fire. I suspect tanks in 8E are likely to in general be "distraction carnifexes" in that they'll deal heavy damage sure, but they'll exist in large part to soak up gobs of firepower.

jcd386 wrote:
I definitely think the Razorbacks seem good.

I also think Missile Launchers might come back. They cost the same as a las cannon, but they are still quite good vs MCs/Vehicles/elite units (only 1 less S and AP than the Las), and the frag missiles also seem good against infantry (D6 S4 AP- W1 shots).

Besides that, everything with a jump pack seems good, most notably death company with a Lemartes charge reroll.

Because of the new 9" away deepstrike rules, I also think that bubblewrap units will be good. IG, Kroot, whatever else will all be important when it comes to keeping the first turn charges off of your valuable units.

I think those are most of my initial thoughts.

Yeah, I was also thinking of having some sort of meat shield / vehicle shield or bubblewrap for your backfield troops or characters would be a good strategy. especially since you can pull out of cc and then open up on them with your range units.

But I was thinking the opposite for the Missile Launcher, lol. You make a good case for it, and what you're saying makes sense if you don't take very many heavy weapons. It's very flexible and not that much worse than a lascannon itself, but if you have a lot of heavy weapons I feel like for the same price I'd rather have Lascannons and then heavy bolters (and maybe plasma cannons) for infantry. That way you get the more powerful lascannons for vehicles and the heavy bolters for troops, which are cheaper

as for other heavy weapons, would you ever run a multi-melta over a lascannon? it's better up close, but has half the range, and most importantly, costs more now

Just a first glance, I’m thinking my scout bikers are going to hit the table often.

They all come stock with a bolt pistol, combat knife, shotgun, grenades. And the bike has either the stock twin bolters, or the GL. Not sure if you need to pay the 2 points for the twin bolters, but the rest of the stock gear is free. The AGLs are only 11 points.

Now stop me if I’m wrong, but you can either shoot your pistols, or everything else. Barring grenades, which are one per squad.

So these guys are going to zoom up, unload the bikes’s bolters and the shotguns ( at +1S is under half range), and then charge, where you and get an additional attack from the knives. If the are still in CC next turn, you get shot with the pistols, then stabbed a lot more. The AGLs and shotguns are all assault weapons, so you can move 22” and drop a chunk of firepower someplace unpleasant if you don’t want to charge.

Sounds like a fun, flexible unit, at 25 ppm base.

2W each as well, just noticed. Not too shabby.

 Nevelon wrote:
Just a first glance, I’m thinking my scout bikers are going to hit the table often.

They all come stock with a bolt pistol, combat knife, shotgun, grenades. And the bike has either the stock twin bolters, or the GL. Not sure if you need to pay the 2 points for the twin bolters, but the rest of the stock gear is free. The AGLs are only 11 points.

Now stop me if I’m wrong, but you can either shoot your pistols, or everything else. Barring grenades, which are one per squad.

So these guys are going to zoom up, unload the bikes’s bolters and the shotguns ( at +1S is under half range), and then charge, where you and get an additional attack from the knives. If the are still in CC next turn, you get shot with the pistols, then stabbed a lot more. The AGLs and shotguns are all assault weapons, so you can move 22” and drop a chunk of firepower someplace unpleasant if you don’t want to charge.

Sounds like a fun, flexible unit, at 25 ppm base.

2W each as well, just noticed. Not too shabby.

ya, seems very solid. 22'' move is intense, is that including the advance?

I don't know about cost effective, but the Storm Raven seems like a powerhouse. A Hard to Hit flyer that can only be assaulted by other flyers. Stock it has the twin AC, twin HB and TWO Stormstike Missle launchers (which aren't one use anymore). It has 14 wounds T7 and can pretty much get to anywhere on the table in one round. Not to mention the twin Hurricane Bolters and it is still a transport. It is going to cost a decent chunk of change. I assume a techmarine can't use Blessing while in it. But if he can, that is a death dealer.

 Hashbeth wrote:
I think it'll depend a lot on how the space marines play. A razorback seems stronger (115 for two LCs and transport of 6) but maybe getting more troops to the front line faster is a better strategy in 8th.

But marines generally benefit more from MSU over big squads so smaller capacity isn't that big of an issue.

Especially for any shooty unit. If you have dedicated cc unit like veterans etc maybe rhino is better but that gets expensive fast.

 benlac wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Just a first glance, I’m thinking my scout bikers are going to hit the table often.

They all come stock with a bolt pistol, combat knife, shotgun, grenades. And the bike has either the stock twin bolters, or the GL. Not sure if you need to pay the 2 points for the twin bolters, but the rest of the stock gear is free. The AGLs are only 11 points.

Now stop me if I’m wrong, but you can either shoot your pistols, or everything else. Barring grenades, which are one per squad.

So these guys are going to zoom up, unload the bikes’s bolters and the shotguns ( at +1S is under half range), and then charge, where you and get an additional attack from the knives. If the are still in CC next turn, you get shot with the pistols, then stabbed a lot more. The AGLs and shotguns are all assault weapons, so you can move 22” and drop a chunk of firepower someplace unpleasant if you don’t want to charge.

Sounds like a fun, flexible unit, at 25 ppm base.

2W each as well, just noticed. Not too shabby.

ya, seems very solid. 22'' move is intense, is that including the advance?

Yes it does. But 16” base with a set 6” advance is great.

I used to laugh about the shotguns on the bikers. Unless you were intentionally sandbagging your damage there was literally no reason to ever use them. The TLB/AGL on the bike was just better. Who's laughing now?

<Cha-CHUNK>

The guys with the shotguns, that’s who!

Loving that extra S for half range. Going to have to re-evaluate how I gear my scouts. Besides snipers, they seem very happy right now.

Razorback with Assault Cannon is 12 shots at 6/-1/1 for 100 points.

Wounds on 2s vs T3, has a -1 for chaff, and puts out twelve shots. Since damage doesnt carry over in 8th like it does in AoS, higher rate of fire is king for the most part, unless you are against really big things.

Median Trace wrote:
I don't know about cost effective, but the Storm Raven seems like a powerhouse. A Hard to Hit flyer that can only be assaulted by other flyers. Stock it has the twin AC, twin HB and TWO Stormstike Missle launchers (which aren't one use anymore). It has 14 wounds T7 and can pretty much get to anywhere on the table in one round. Not to mention the twin Hurricane Bolters and it is still a transport. It is going to cost a decent chunk of change. I assume a techmarine can't use Blessing while in it. But if he can, that is a death dealer.

I wasn't running flyers, but I just took another look at this bad boy and dem, it's a beast. Hurricane bolters only cost like 4 each too? Plus, as was mentioned, the AC's seem like a good option for getting lots of dice on the table and will be effective against anything. It'll run you 270-310 points roughly, but as a way to deliver a dreadnought and an assault squad, or veterans, right to the opponents backfield or objective, I think it'll probably be worth it's weight. A predator w/ 4 lascannons is 200 points, so it seems reasonable to spend 300 on this.

That being said, if your opponent managed to take it out with your units still inside then that would basically lose you the game lol. I haven't looked hard at how it would stand up to interceptor-type aircraft or anti-air, hopefully fairly well.

I'm just ecstatic my speeders now have some durability built-in with 6 wounds and a 3+. Yeah they got pricier, but it doesn't seem too much.
Double heavy bolter or Assault cannon + heavy bolter for hordes. Typhoons for big things (pseudo-TL Lascannons)
All able to ignore terrain, moving 16", fall back from combat and still shoot?
Yes please.

My only question is, does a squadron need to maintain coherency? Boosting base movement to 20" with 3 in a squadron sounds nice.

echoing razorbacks with assault cannons... just wow that is good for the points.

Squadrons deploy together but after that are treated as individual units.

*edit* that might be the squadron rule for AM now that I think about it...

Ditto on the stormraven; I'm also hoping that Dreadnoughts have their day in 8th

 Aetare wrote:
Ditto on the stormraven; I'm also hoping that Dreadnoughts have their day in 8th

I think it was in one of their Facebook posts or updates they mentioned that we should see more predators and dreadnoughts in this ed. due to them being buffed. That being said, predators seem underwhelming for the points cost despite the buffs. Haven't looked at dreadnoughts too hard yet, but they might be a decent option, especially on a stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flood wrote:
I'm just ecstatic my speeders now have some durability built-in with 6 wounds and a 3+. Yeah they got pricier, but it doesn't seem too much.
Double heavy bolter or Assault cannon + heavy bolter for hordes. Typhoons for big things (pseudo-TL Lascannons)
All able to ignore terrain, moving 16", fall back from combat and still shoot?
Yes please.

My only question is, does a squadron need to maintain coherency? Boosting base movement to 20" with 3 in a squadron sounds nice.

Yeah, the mm's seem like they might be good option too, especially since you can zoom right up to within 12'' range and roll 4d6 and discard the two lowest for damage. A couple armed with those and you could reliably go tank hunting, though they do start to get pricey with the mm.

 benlac wrote:

 Aetare wrote:
Ditto on the stormraven; I'm also hoping that Dreadnoughts have their day in 8th

I think it was in one of their Facebook posts or updates they mentioned that we should see more predators and dreadnoughts in this ed. due to them being buffed. That being said, predators seem underwhelming for the points cost despite the buffs. Haven't looked at dreadnoughts too hard yet, but they might be a decent option, especially on a stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flood wrote:
I'm just ecstatic my speeders now have some durability built-in with 6 wounds and a 3+. Yeah they got pricier, but it doesn't seem too much.
Double heavy bolter or Assault cannon + heavy bolter for hordes. Typhoons for big things (pseudo-TL Lascannons)
All able to ignore terrain, moving 16", fall back from combat and still shoot?
Yes please.

My only question is, does a squadron need to maintain coherency? Boosting base movement to 20" with 3 in a squadron sounds nice.

Yeah, the mm's seem like they might be good option too, especially since you can zoom right up to within 12'' range and roll 4d6 and discard the two lowest for damage. A couple armed with those and you could reliably go tank hunting, though they do start to get pricey with the mm.

I think they're right that they're buffed, preds and dreads used to be just too damned flimsy, now they can soak a fair bit of firepower

Only thing hurting dreads now is you can't put them in a drop pod.

 Flood wrote:
Only thing hurting dreads now is you can't put them in a drop pod.

I'm sure GW only limited that to sell us a new model in a month

BrianDavion wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Only thing hurting dreads now is you can't put them in a drop pod.

I'm sure GW only limited that to sell us a new model in a month

I would guess that GW will release a Dreadnought Drop Pod that works for standard Dreadnoughts and Primaris Dreadnoughts both.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Only thing hurting dreads now is you can't put them in a drop pod.

I'm sure GW only limited that to sell us a new model in a month

I would guess that GW will release a Dreadnought Drop Pod that works for standard Dreadnoughts and Primaris Dreadnoughts both.

dreadnought drop pods are an old thing FW has done for ages, maybe the next HH boxed set includes a dreadnought drop pod?

truthfully some sort of "drop pod assault" mini game, with 2 tac squads, a dreadnought and 3 drop pods, would be an intreasting one

Just to see how effective the assault cannon would be, I compared it to the probability of wounding with other weapons vs different toughness & armour saves. Check it out:
—————
toughness 7, a-save 3+

heavy bolter: 33% chance of 1 wound
plasma cannon: 73% of 2w (supercharged, and a 16% chance of killing self)
assault cannon: 66% of 1w
grav cannon: 73% of 2w avg

—————
t4, 4+

heavy bolter: 87% of 1w
heavy flamer: 154% of 1w
plasma cannon: 88% of 1w (non-super)
assault cannon: 175% of 1w
grav cannon: 176% of 1w

—————
t3, 5+

heavy bolter: 109% of 1w
heavy flamer: 192% of 1w
plasma cannon: 110% of 1w (non-super)
assault cannon: 274% of 1w
grav cannon: 176% of 1w

—————
t3, 6+

heavy bolter: 132% of 1w
heavy flamer: 232% of 1w
plasma cannon: 110% of 1w (non-super)
assault cannon: 330% of 1w
grav cannon: 176% of 1w



Assault cannon definitely out-classes the heavy bolter, it's essentially double the strength of a heavy bolter and you can see that in the probabilities of wounding. But, we should keep in mind that it's just over double the cost of a heavy bolter too. So, the humble heavy bolter is still a solid choice imo, though I'd prefer an assault cannon (if I had one).
On a side note, Grav cannon is very respectable against tanks & infantry with it's 4 shots. Might be worth throwing in a tactical squad as it will still have a decent output even if you moved that turn.