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Not complaining about their overall new feel, just some silly inconsistencies that make no sense.

First, the neuro disruptor. It's 10pts for a pistol that is S3, no longer has fleshbane, -3Ap and D3 damage (except only 1 vs vehicles), yet for 1pt less I can get a fusion gun that is S8, -4AP and D6 wounds. Of course the fusion has 6" range over 12" of neuro, but those numbers still don't add up. Used to wound models on a 2+, now it will be mostly 5s or 6s. Leave at home!!!!

second, the iconic harlequins kiss. 14pts per model for +1 S, -1 Ap and D3 wounds...OR...the Embrace which is +1 S, -3AP for 1 wound.....and is only 6pts!! What the heck were they thinking? Again, leave at home!!

real shame that these things that are so damned obvious make it through. At least it has a chance of being changed within a year.

Havent had a good look, just saw that Skyweavers have been buffed, yay!

What's their overall feel? Troupes in starweavers backed by skyweavers with the Ynnari as HQ?

I'm super happy about the new Harlequins rules, but I agree with you. Some of the rules (like the neuro disruptor and the kiss) are just absurd.

Makes me wonder if there's something massive I'm missing.

 Klowny wrote:
Havent had a good look, just saw that Skyweavers have been buffed, yay!

What's their overall feel? Troupes in starweavers backed by skyweavers with the Ynnari as HQ?

Nah, they have their own HQ picks now. The Troupe Master is a 60 point cheap beatstick HQ while the Shadowseer has been buffed up to a psyker HQ.

Mechanised Harlequins in Starweavers backed by Voidweavers with a Fog of Dreams Shadowseer seems like the way I'm going to go. Cast Fog on a Starweaver and the enemy is deducting 2 from all to-hit rolls against them in the shooting phase, so chances are your troupe is going to make it to the enemy intact.

yes, but in a Ynnari force you can now use each other's transports. Give me 12 harlequin models in a wave serpent (10 harlies, shadowseer and solitaire)

 Thud wrote:
I'm super happy about the new Harlequins rules, but I agree with you. Some of the rules (like the neuro disruptor and the kiss) are just absurd.

Makes me wonder if there's something massive I'm missing.

I don´t think so. The equipment and the unitspecific rules are a little weird in other lists too.

Bah, you youngsters and your Ynnari, I'm a Cegorach purist!

It's a shame the Solitaire doesn't benefit from the Shadowseer and Troupe Masters' buffs, which would have made him absolutely lethal, but it makes sense from a fluff standpoint, I suppose.

Points don't affect me at all since I am going to be using power levels primarily, I am super excited to see what these clowns can do now!

I went on an 11 month win streak when their codex dropped, lost their first game to recycling horde nids with serious flyer support.

I am happen with the change to the mirage launchers, dropping the enemies ability to shoot in addition to a 4+ invul save accross the board it is actually going to be tough to take the clowns out with a TAC list.

bullyboy wrote:Not complaining about their overall new feel, just some silly inconsistencies that make no sense.

First, the neuro disruptor. It's 10pts for a pistol that is S3, no longer has fleshbane, -3Ap and D3 damage (except only 1 vs vehicles), yet for 1pt less I can get a fusion gun that is S8, -4AP and D6 wounds. Of course the fusion has 6" range over 12" of neuro, but those numbers still don't add up. Used to wound models on a 2+, now it will be mostly 5s or 6s. Leave at home!!!!

second, the iconic harlequins kiss. 14pts per model for +1 S, -1 Ap and D3 wounds...OR...the Embrace which is +1 S, -3AP for 1 wound.....and is only 6pts!! What the heck were they thinking? Again, leave at home!!

real shame that these things that are so damned obvious make it through. At least it has a chance of being changed within a year.

I think they forgot the fleshbane "rule" on the neuro-disruptor. Eldar wychblades still have it. If it also wounded non-vehicles on 2+, it would have some use as a monster killer, and could be worth 10pts.
As for the kiss, I really don't know.

Robin5t wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
Havent had a good look, just saw that Skyweavers have been buffed, yay!

What's their overall feel? Troupes in starweavers backed by skyweavers with the Ynnari as HQ?

Nah, they have their own HQ picks now. The Troupe Master is a 60 point cheap beatstick HQ while the Shadowseer has been buffed up to a psyker HQ.

Mechanised Harlequins in Starweavers backed by Voidweavers with a Fog of Dreams Shadowseer seems like the way I'm going to go. Cast Fog on a Starweaver and the enemy is deducting 2 from all to-hit rolls against them in the shooting phase, so chances are your troupe is going to make it to the enemy intact.

Fog of dreams is casted on an enemy unit. Only that unit gets penalty, and the penalty is only against Harlequin infantry, so no -2 to hit against Starweavers.
The Shadowseer's aura also only apply to nearby infantry. I think a Shadowseer is only viable with foot harlequins.

bullyboy wrote:yes, but in a Ynnari force you can now use each other's transports. Give me 12 harlequin models in a wave serpent (10 harlies, shadowseer and solitaire)

The only Ynnari models that can share transports are the ones with the Ynnead's will rule, which means only Yvraine and the Visarch. So it's just like in 7th edition.

Where can I see these Harlequin leaks?

Oh, bugger. I completely misread that, somehow.

Ah well. It's still a neat power and even the -1 to hit that Starweavers get as standard is going to be great against Tau armies. I'm still thinking Clown Car Parade is the way to go.

There is definitely some poor internal balance with the kiss & neuro disruptor however overall it seems the clowns have been heavily buffed. 4+ invul, more durable transports that don't wipe half the squad on death, a little bit more powerful in cc, Voidweaver vastly better, and above all else, praise Cegorach we don't have to take those blasted restrictive formations anymore for run+charge Mechanised with Skyweaver & Voidweaver support seems the way to go, without Veil of Tears I'm not sure foot Harlequins will quite work even with the new Shadowseer.

I'm a bit skeptical about psychic powers in general. At first I thought Twilight Pathways could work well with Skyweavers for a 44" move, which combined with fly would allow them to get close to key enemy characters / support units. But the 3" range on the power makes it a lot more difficult to pull off, because you'll need to conga line to stay close to the shadowseer, and you'll then have issue with the overall footprint of the unit (Skyweavers have big bases, and if enemy ranks are tight, it's gonna be tough to fit a decent sized unit if it has to stay in a line).
And the new psychic system makes them very unreliable, because very easy to dispell.

I'm not sure foot harlequins are that weak. I'm thinking 2 units of players with a shadowseer and a master (maybe the solitaire staying close to the characters too). With the improved save and the -1 to wound from the shadowseer, players are twice as durable against S3 fire, and get almost the same buff against S4. And with Twilight Pathways there's a possibility of T1 charges (16" + 2D6" move, then 2D6"+1" charge = 31" average).

And it looks like the shadowseer's ability works in melee too, which will help a lot.

I think it'll depend on who you're fighting. Against gunlines and especially Tau, mechanised seems like a good choice between closing the gap quicker and reducing their accuracy (how'd you like hitting on a 5+, Tau? Muahahaha), but against assault armies, it might be better to bring more players so you can go toe-to-toe with them in melee.

definitely true that overall they have improved, but still puzzled over the disruptor (no big deal not taking it) and especially the kiss (too many points per model). I have a feeling that this will be addressed in the future when they realize every harlequin player is taking caresses and embraces and not the iconic kiss in any list.

Do you think harlequins will benefit at all from the Ynnari or will they be strong enough on their own?

How will they deal with hordes? Big swathes of genestealers etc.

Overall Harlies got some significant boosts, which is great.
I'm not sure if Ynnari are going to benefit them that much. being able to Advance and charge is pretty amazing
And since you can now mix Harlies in the same detachment as Eldar or DE (all have the 'Aeldari' keyword), Ynnari loses a bit of appeal

I'm trying to decide if Ynnari is right for my Eldar as losing Battle focus isn't a much of a big deal now. I will still be able to Advance and shoot most weapons (but at -1 to hit). But that seems worth it for Soulburst, especially since Alpha-strike lists will be really, really common in 8E

I'm really excited to try out some Harlie units. I've wanted to take Skyweavers since they came out, but it was too hard to get them in a list (without the tax-weaver).

-

I'm definitely going for a 5-man squad with fusions in a Starweaver (maybe with a Death Jester) but then my main melee squads may be on foot backed up by a Shadowseer.

The swap to embraces and kisses is classic GW. What was good in one edition is trash in the next. The caress still looks reasonably useful, however. I have two troupes on the sprue from Death Masque. Guess what weapons they will be getting? Hint: not kisses!

No more Harliquin's KISS??!?!
but, but.....

I have a mix of weapons but vastly more kisses than embraces. So guess what? Models with kisses will be "embraces" and models with embraces will be "kisses". Caresses will be the same. My opponents never had a clue about harlie weapons anyway.

 bullyboy wrote:
I have a mix of weapons but vastly more kisses than embraces. So guess what? Models with kisses will be "embraces" and models with embraces will be "kisses". Caresses will be the same. My opponents never had a clue about harlie weapons anyway.

I thought about doing that too, but it feels so wrong inside…
I also feel like I should proxy all my neuro-disruptors as fusion.

But I still hope that they forgot the "always wounds on 2+ unless against vehicles" on the neuro, and that the kiss was supposed to have additional damages on to-wound of 6 or something. GW has been pretty quick with FAQs as of late, and for 8th they even started getting feedback, even though the release is in two weeks. Let's dream and pray for an FAQ/errata on day 1 (an errata that would include more than the shadowseer's armor value of course).

I don't understand why people hate on the Kiss so much, 1d3 wounds is effectively doubling your damage on multi wound models. Outfitting a bunch of players with it is iffy at that cost but on something like a solitaire with many attacks and high ability to engage targets suited to his weapon it makes good sense.

m.stan wrote:
I don't understand why people hate on the Kiss so much, 1d3 wounds is effectively doubling your damage on multi wound models. Outfitting a bunch of players with it is iffy at that cost but on something like a solitaire with many attacks and high ability to engage targets suited to his weapon it makes good sense.

Meh, it's really only going to shine against multi wound infantry due to the poor strength. Against monsters and the like, you will be stuck hunting for sixes, and they will get to take their save. It could still be a decent weapon if things like primaris marines start dominating the meta, but I just don't see it right now.

There is a lot more multiwound infantry than their used to be too. It might look a lot worse on paper than it does on the table. Of course, right now it's looking way to expensive.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not complaining about their overall new feel, just some silly inconsistencies that make no sense.

First, the neuro disruptor. It's 10pts for a pistol that is S3, no longer has fleshbane, -3Ap and D3 damage (except only 1 vs vehicles), yet for 1pt less I can get a fusion gun that is S8, -4AP and D6 wounds. Of course the fusion has 6" range over 12" of neuro, but those numbers still don't add up. Used to wound models on a 2+, now it will be mostly 5s or 6s. Leave at home!!!!

second, the iconic harlequins kiss. 14pts per model for +1 S, -1 Ap and D3 wounds...OR...the Embrace which is +1 S, -3AP for 1 wound.....and is only 6pts!! What the heck were they thinking? Again, leave at home!!

real shame that these things that are so damned obvious make it through. At least it has a chance of being changed within a year.

Actually the harlequin kiss is fairly consistent with other weapons, from powerfists to ranged weapons. Anything that deals multiple wounds gets a premium price. Even a d3. It's the same logic that has almost every big MW model (tanks etc) shoot up in price.

Trystis wrote:
There is a lot more multiwound infantry than their used to be too. It might look a lot worse on paper than it does on the table. Of course, right now it's looking way to expensive.

that's fair. If the meta ends up having a lot of Tyranid warriors and primaris marines, it could even be a useful upgrade, particularly if you are playing with power levels and don't need to sweat the points cost. But yeah, brutally overcosted at its current value. The fact that wounds don't spill over is another strike against it, btw.

Consider this example:

6 harlequins with kisses versus 5 primaris marines - 24 attacks hitting on 3s, so about 16 hits on average. Half of these hits wound, so about 8 wounds on average. Then the marines get a 4+ save, so only about 4 get through. Then, you need to roll a 3+ to actually remove the model. If you roll a 1 or 2, you have essentially wasted the next d3 wounds. When all is said and done, you will probably only remove, at best, 3 marines by using a full unit equipped with kisses, and possibly less.

Compare the same units, except now with the Quins armed with embraces. 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, just like the kiss. Except now that primaris marine needs a 6 to save, so you are probably getting 6-7 wounds through... killing approx 3 marines. So the result is about the same, except the embrace is much better at killing 1 wound infantry and in general anything with a good save. Plus it is less than half the cost in points!

Has anyone realized that skyweavers with star bolts can only throw one per a squad per a turn because of the grenade rule? And even worse it had to forfeit shooting it's shrunken cannon to do so, which is actually a more efficient weapon.

This must be an oversight in my opinion. Overall I'm very happy about the new rules for harlequins. Only other thing is that kisses are overpriced or underpowered in comparison to the other options. Also haywire cannon should have been an assault weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can anyone confirm this to be true, or am I missing something? I need to know if I need to replace all of my star bolas modeled on my guys, as that makes them absolutely worthless.

And auto-correct on my phone screwed up my post above me, although shrunken cannons sound cool.

 bullyboy wrote:
yes, but in a Ynnari force you can now use each other's transports. Give me 12 harlequin models in a wave serpent (10 harlies, shadowseer and solitaire)

No you can't. The Ynarri characters can, but the transports still restrict it. Look carefully at which models have Ynneads Will, the wording of that rule and the wording on the individual transports.

Remember that Pistol is now considered a very powerful weapon type.

So part of that is paying the Pistol Premium.