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Thing is, the Undivided Legions are still playable. It's anything with a Mark that is now pointless. That is what gets me more. I can wait for Legion rules. I can't just unpainted my Death Guard havocs, terminators, oblits heldrakes, Biker Lords etc. We have the restrictions of the 3.5 codex with the blandness of the 5th edition.

It's certainly odd what units we lost. Havocs seem a weird choice, and lacking access to generic terminators also felt weird. Oh, and no chosen.

So I guess we are getting unique variants of all the marine infantry we can use, which does make sense even if it seems really impractical. Maybe we just get plague marine variants for most? I could see plague marines coming with options to be fielded as some plague havoc equivalent. And plague terminators could effectively be both the chosen and terminators of the list (weren't most chaos terminators mentioned to be chosen at one time?).

The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Are we really going to get a unique havoc kit or chosen kit on top of that? All of the fast attack is gone for sure, and demon engines seem unlikely (unless those are demon release we can also use). I'm just worried our update will come and go and we will still be left with holes in our army.

The index itself looks pretty balanced, so I'm just waiting for the Death Guard codex and releases to see what else is going on.

SilverAlien wrote:


The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Don't count the Starter Box units as part of a Faction release. Remember, we didn't get chosen or cultists after Dark Vengeance. The Hellbrute took several years to show up. Orks never got their Deffkopta. GSC still cannot get Aberrants seperately.

What is likely?

Plague Marine/Chosen/Havoc kit? Doing work like the PA Grey Knights? UGH. Not a positive indicator of price.
Terminator kit.
Mortarion.
Poxwalker kit? Possibly?
Beast of Nurgle kit for Daemons.

It puts us on a similar level to Thousand Sons.

I actually like that fact that just being marked as a certain god doesn't automatically make you a member of the legion that was dedicated to serving them. It fits the fluff well, nowhere is there fluff I'm aware of where an original traitor legion welcomed a recent convert into their legion just because they all like the same god. They might be comrades and fight together but they aren't suddenly bearing the same gene seed. Also, it allows the legions to have the feel of the original legion again. Death guard don't do fast, so if you want nurgle bikers you can take them they just aren't part of the inner circle.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Don't count the Starter Box units as part of a Faction release. Remember, we didn't get chosen or cultists after Dark Vengeance. The Hellbrute took several years to show up. Orks never got their Deffkopta. GSC still cannot get Aberrants seperately.

What is likely?

Plague Marine/Chosen/Havoc kit? Doing work like the PA Grey Knights? UGH. Not a positive indicator of price.
Terminator kit.
Mortarion.
Poxwalker kit? Possibly?
Beast of Nurgle kit for Daemons.

It puts us on a similar level to Thousand Sons.

True enough, I'm fairly new to collecting, so the one I knew of (aberrants) I'd assumed was fairly unlikely.

I think the plague marines are a safe bet for soon, given they have rules for a weapon that doesn't exist in the starter box. Which is also why I'm not so sure it'll be a multi box. If the havoc/chosen plague marine options would be coming alongside the other new item in the index, why wouldn't they include both?

Actually... it would kinda make sense if we got a couple terminator units and one box. A heavy support terminator and a general usage one. I'd actually be very happy if that were the case, but who knows?

I'm worried that when we do get our Terminators their wargear will be restricted much the same way, so my axes and plasma won't be field able. Had I known everyone would be undivided eventually, I woundnt have painted them pre heresy death guard. Oh wait they're not death guard now. It's so stupid.

I'm gonna interject here with an observation, for literally as long as I've played 40k, there has been some saltyness (justly so mind you) among chaos Marines, that they get stuck with a single vanilla codex, while space Marines have a ton of flavor in the form of multiple codices etc.

thats changing. Death Guard are getting their own codex, we can expect that for the other "cult legions" too. TLDR Death Guard is losing access to a lot of this stuff because GW's intending a fairly big release schedule for them to go along Primaris Marines, multiple differant troop types, new vehicles etc. for all those whom have looked at blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, and wondered why Chaos can't get that treatment?

it's here. welcome to Marine sub faction status death guard players.

orkychaos wrote:
I actually like that fact that just being marked as a certain god doesn't automatically make you a member of the legion that was dedicated to serving them. It fits the fluff well, nowhere is there fluff I'm aware of where an original traitor legion welcomed a recent convert into their legion just because they all like the same god. They might be comrades and fight together but they aren't suddenly bearing the same gene seed. Also, it allows the legions to have the feel of the original legion again. Death guard don't do fast, so if you want nurgle bikers you can take them they just aren't part of the inner circle.

Except the main issue here is Chosen (Legion Veterans), Havocs (Fire Support Squads) and Terminators - not bikes. And arugably, Raptors are perfectly legitimate as well (Destroyers).

Death Guard are a Legion that has a heavy emphasis on Terminators, Veterans and Fire Support squads in 30k - to the extent that some of their RoWs are based around them.

You say it fits the fluff for there to not be Death Guard Terminators?

I say that's bull.

Those three units have been part of the Death Guard core since the word go. Veterans, Terminators and Havocs. We're an infantry based army. Instead of tanks we bring Terminators. Resilient, durable, survivable Terminators.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm gonna interject here with an observation, for literally as long as I've played 40k, there has been some saltyness (justly so mind you) among chaos Marines, that they get stuck with a single vanilla codex, while space Marines have a ton of flavor in the form of multiple codices etc.

thats changing. Death Guard are getting their own codex, we can expect that for the other "cult legions" too. TLDR Death Guard is losing access to a lot of this stuff because GW's intending a fairly big release schedule for them to go along Primaris Marines, multiple differant troop types, new vehicles etc. for all those whom have looked at blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, and wondered why Chaos can't get that treatment?

it's here. welcome to Marine sub faction status death guard players.

Hahahahahahahaha.

Would you like a history lesson?

Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists and Black Templars didn't get their unique identities until around the same time that the CSM Legions did - through the Index Astartes articles and campaign books during 3rd edition. 3.5 CSM further cemented those Legion identities. 4th ed SM followed suit - with a 'create your own' Chapter Trait system.

However, here's where it gets REALLY strange.

Late 4th ed that abomination of a CSM codex drops - and suddenly, all the Legion identities are gone. Even the design of the codex and WD articles are terrible, encouraging us to take 'technicolour dreamcoat' armies, with squads all painted to random Legion colours - truth be told I suspect this was because they couldn't be asked painting a studio CSM army proper - hell, even the basing scheme was inconsistent. And if you paid attention between 3.5 and 4th you'll notice that the Black Legion army they painted up got horrendously mixed up - Chosen were being randomly stuck in normal CSM squads for battle reports, newer models had a completely different basing scheme and the cult troops were ending up with random odd shoulderpads as they were strangely being used as individual scheme examples in the new Codex.

5th ed SM - introduces Chapter Traits on special characters. This further reinforces Chapter identities but leads to a strange mix and match counts as X Special Characer situation.

Then 6th edition comes along.

Do CSM get Legion identities back? Hahahaha. No. We get Codex BUY THIS HELLDRAKE NOW - with nothing more than fluff for the Legions. And a strange focus on Crimson Slaughter.

6th ed SM comes along - guess what? Chapter Traits baby! Suddenly Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Salamanders and White Scars all have identities with free USRs encouraging certain unit approachs - jump packs for Raven Guard, Bikes for White Scars, flamer and melta spam for Salamanders.....

During the interval Chaos gets two supplements...for Crimson Slaughter (who literally nobody wanted - they could have been Red Corsairs, they could have been Word Bearers...wtf) and Black Legion.

SM get an Iron Hands and Imperial Fists supplement further reinforcing their identities.

7th ed SM comes along. MORE CHAPTER TRAITS.

CSM languishes for the entirety of 7th. We get to watch as digital and campaign supplements come out - Raven Guard, White Scars. Then Angels of Death giving everyone their own Decurions and objectives and relics and the like.

Meanwhile, we twiddle our thumbs.

Then Traitor Legions comes out. One week after WoM (sorry Thousand Sons players). And it's beautiful. It's literally all we've been asking for. It's our identities back after being stripped away 3 editions ago.

Turns out Traitor Legions was about for 6 months. And now...our identities are gone again. Are CSM players made about they? You fething bet. Because due to SM having crapped out special characters for so many chapters they get to play 8th ed bubble spam.

And yet....we have no IW, WB, NL, AL special characters. Yet as well as Ultras, SW, BA and DA...you have special characters for White Scars, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders and Raven Guard.

Are we confused? Yes.

And then you produce statements like this - DUR HURR, YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE UNITS BECAUSE YOU ARE A SUBFACTION. DUR HURR.

Hang on a bloody minute.

World Eaters - everything not a psyker/ not Khorne
Emperor's Children - everything not 'non Slaanesh'.
Thousand Sons - this list reads strangely like what Matt Hutson has painted up with little rhyme or reason as to why certain things are there and why certain things aren't.
Death Guard - I hate to say this but, ew. The list literally reads like a list of the random crap that GW have painted up in their studio army. It's got strange omissions - Terminators, Chosen, Havocs, Vindicators, Daemon Engines - wtf? Why did these all disappear? We can't even have a Sorcerer with a Palanquin. The sorcerer with the Nurgle specific MOUNT. And then it hits you. The rest is what random crap they have painted up - they have painted up the Dark Imperium models - the characters can double as Chaos Lords or Sorcerers - so they count those. The Poxwalkers can double as cultists. So they include those. They have a studio Helbrute in DG colours...and they did a How To Paint book which featured a Nurgle defiler.


Now, let's look at sub-factions shall we?

Blood Angels - um. Hmm. Ok, you don't get the SM flyer, pre-heresy Terminators, anti air tanks or Centurions. You never had them before. That's really not new, is it? Disappointing to not have, but you're really not surprised.
Dark Angels - No fancy flyers, no Centurions, again, like the BA you've basically got all the stuff you've gotten before. Nothing new.
Space Wolves - Once again, same as before - you've lost nothing. Hmm.

Now let's look at Death Guard. Going by their last 'codex' equivalent - i.e. what we could take - we've lost...LOADS. Holy gak. Ok, ok, so we lost a bunch of the newer stuff. Bikes, Raptors, Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths...fair enough, they weren't the most fluffy choices.

Wait, we've lost Terminators, Chosen and Havocs? Things we've had since our first incarnation as an 'identity'?!

To understand the absolute shock Death Guard players experienced on READING that page.

Imagine you're a Dark Angels player. You play Ravenwing.

And suddenly you cannot take Land Speeders or Attack Bikes. You know, things that have been the core of your army since your army was a thing. You can only take Bikes. Ya'll would be flipping out and SCREECHING incoherently at us if that happened.

Regardless of whether a new book is on the way or not - the list is a stop gap. So why not include stop-gap units? Instead we get penalised as the bubble effect is only half as effective for us...or we're having to frankenstein lists.

Meanwhile every Imperial subfaction can HAPPILY stack bubbles. Not a problem. You don't need to make a Pepsi version of the Legion to take what you could have taken 15 years ago or 3 months ago.

It's just...wtf. There is no explanation for this. It's literally like the guy who got assigned the Death Guard rules walked to the WHW display cabinet, looked in it and wrote down what he saw and went 'YEP, WE HAVE AN ARMY NOW'.

I thought they playtested this with the ICT. Did not one of the ICT players go 'Hang on, wtf are you guys doing here?' Or did they manage to speak to the only person in the world who goes 'I RUN PLAGUE MARINES ONLY AND NOTHING ELSE' ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm worried that when we do get our Terminators their wargear will be restricted much the same way, so my axes and plasma won't be field able. Had I known everyone would be undivided eventually, I woundnt have painted them pre heresy death guard. Oh wait they're not death guard now. It's so stupid.

This is actually one of the biggest concerns. That this 'new Death Guard Terminator kit we've seen only a single model of' is going to basically result in us getting Scarab Occult'd.

Now, I have 3 configurations of my Terminators.

2 Power Mauls, 1 chainfist, 1 power fist, 1 heavy flamer, 2 combi-flamers, 1 combi-melta, 1 Lightning Claw.

4 Power fists, 4 Combi Bolters, 1 Power Axe, 1 Reaper Autocannon

2 paired Lightning Claws, 1 single Lightning Claw, 1 Chainfist, 1 Power Sword, 2 Combi-bolters, 1 Reaper.

If they Scarab occult us...there is no way in hell these units will be able to survive. And no, I'd rather not strip arms off models that in some cases have done their damn job since late 4th edition when I replaced my old Death Guard and bought a FW heavy new army.

What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

 Arbitrator wrote:
What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

Because they have a studio army defiler and not a studio army forgefiend or maulerfiend.

It seriously reads like the guy went, looked at the display cabinet, wrote down what he saw and called it a day.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

Because they have a studio army defiler and not a studio army forgefiend or maulerfiend.

It seriously reads like the guy went, looked at the display cabinet, wrote down what he saw and called it a day.

You'd think they'd at least paint one up for the sake of shifting more kits... but then, Games Workshop - even with the head of the serpent changed - have never been that bright.

My new <Legion> keyword will be Feth Guard, since they fethed up my army list..

I am guessing the deflier made the list due to the Plague Hulk of Nurgle. Just a hunch though (as it is no longer sold by FW).

And I am sorry you lost access to your Forgefiends and Maulerfiends under the Death Guard keyword, but these are some of the least fluffy units for Nurgle.

Raptor cults and Obliterator cults arent fluffy for DG either really.

My point is, we chose to build unfluffy lists, and it's time to rectify that. I am excited that when the new codex drops that my army will be actual Death Guard, not weird things mixed together and coloured as Death Guard.

Everyone shouting about how we had no identity until traitor legions: we still don't. NOW we are getting our identity. NOW we are getting our Primarch. NOW we are getting primary model support from GW.

If you want to play an unfluffy army that is coloured as Death Guard, I am not having a go at you. There is a reason that my whole army can take the Death Guard Legion keyword already, except a few units; I built it to be somewhat fluffy.

I agree Havocs and terminators are weird to not be included in the initial release, but again I believe that is because we could have new fluffy options coming soon.

as for sub factions, remember death Guard are getting a codex very soon (hell I expect to see death guard and primaris releaases for pretty much all of late june/july)

Let's look at an existing sub faction for Marines, I'll say space Wolves.

so, GW has just annoucned a new edition, and space wolves, which until this time, had used the space Marines codex, now get their own faction. we've gotten a new starter set with blood claws, grey hunters and wolf scouts.

so along comes the index, and we're told that space wolves cannot take terminators, cannot take devestators etc

well WTF GW, space wolves have always had terminators, and using heavy weapons is a thing.

well the month goes by and GW releases new kits, space wolves get wolf guard, they get long fangs etc. which are direct analogues for these units, but a new kit with differant options.

I SUSPECT this is whats happening with Death Guard.

All I know is that I am disappointed.

I started my DG army before solid news of 8th or the new DG models would be in the starter box. I started it because I was sick of playing the SM's, and always loved the Nugle lore.

Now after months of buying Plague Marines off eBay (cause you know...GW didnt stock them) and then buying FW conversion bits for Plague Marines and Terminators, and then painting my guys, and modeling them.... (and that includes pistols on some Plague Marines....sigh)... I feel shafted.

I assumed with the hype of 8th, and with the "Oh every model in your army will be viable" that that would include the actual sub factions. Is that wishful thinking?

I dont want to streamline the armies. Thats BORING, and limited in scope.

Even worse...my SM army is Iron Hands....lol

So getting hyped for 8th has gone out the window for me. Generic lists, generic lore, and everything just blended together does not get me excited now...

Half of my Plague Marines have bolt pistols + knvies, I am not changing them lol

Also it is always a risk buying Forge World, as GW doesn't view that as already released alot of the time.

Edit: all of my PMs are FW conversions.

It wouldn't be so bad if I could Counts As my Autocannons as the new Blight Launchers, but the range 24 vs 48 is way off without shortening the barrels.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
It wouldn't be so bad if I could Counts As my Autocannons as the new Blight Launchers, but the range 24 vs 48 is way off without shortening the barrels.

Just model on some pus coming out of the barrel, reducing its effectiveness

I understand from a fluff standpoint that they took away the havocs, oblits, raptors and bikes. But why the Chosen AND especially: Why the Vindicator? Fluff says Vindicators were basically the only tanks we used in higher numbers - and they take them away and give us predators instead? That's strange.

I hope we'll get some special weapons team that fills the role of Chosen and Havocs at the same time.

Also, just ally in your nurgle marked Oblits, Havocs and stuff as [Lords of Decay] or [The cleaved] or [The Purge] or [Bringers of Despair] or [Apostles of Contagion] - and you are totally okay. If you don't want to follow Mortarions path, then get out and find your own Nurgle Warband .

Yeah actually vindicator is a sad loss to the Legion :(

I can't wait to see some new chosen DG models!

Honestly looking at it, I'm considering just shelving my DG/CSM and refusing to purchase anything new for them for a long while. If I wanted to play DG I'm basically rebuilding my army from the ground up as is, I've got half an army at best. Even if I play black legion or EC I'm not really satisfied with my current collection, probably need more basic CSM/noise marines. If I want to use all my models, I'd have to do both.

The fact that I see no reason to disallow havocs, terminators, or yes vindicators besides either total ignorance of the armies fluff or an attempt to force us to buy new models doesn't help.

Honestly, they are lucky I bought cawl and a dominus already, otherwise both my lists would've been shot to hell and I'd probably be annoyed enough to quit playing. As is, I'm holding off on purchases of any kind till I see a codex.

You won't have to buy new models if they release new Havocs or terminators, just use your current models... But yes might be wise to hold off buying stuff until the codex if you have a heavily non-DG themed army

 Rippy wrote:
You won't have to buy new models if they release new Havocs or terminators, just use your current models... But yes might be wise to hold off buying stuff until the codex if you have a heavily non-DG themed army

If the new units had equipment that was compareable to existing equipment, do you really think they wouldn't have mentioned it as an option. I'm assuming so. I wouldn't be shocked if some of it resembled the Horus Hersey stuff, given the recent tsons releases actually did (to a degree of course). I'm not even convinced we will get havocs at this point.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Thing is, the Undivided Legions are still playable. It's anything with a Mark that is now pointless. That is what gets me more. I can wait for Legion rules. I can't just unpainted my Death Guard havocs, terminators, oblits heldrakes, Biker Lords etc. We have the restrictions of the 3.5 codex with the blandness of the 5th edition.

Actually you can, you just need some acetone.

Can't wait for these dudes

 Rippy wrote:
Can't wait for these dudes

yup, we KNOW DG termies are coming, the bigger question IMHO is havocs.

Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

SilverAlien wrote:
Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

most likely they'll be in cataphracti armor so speed of 4, Invul save 4++ they'll be slow but pretty damned hard to kill