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So how much of this wailing is moot once the actual DG book comes out? GW said they're written and in the playtesting phase already.

Great, having spent money on Traitor Legions (invalid 6 months later) and pre-ordered chaos index (soon to be invalid, absolute pile) I can soon look forwards to wasting more money.

Great.

zerosignal wrote:
Great, having spent money on Traitor Legions (invalid 6 months later) and pre-ordered chaos index (soon to be invalid, absolute pile) I can soon look forwards to wasting more money.

Great.

Don't spend any more of your money then, if you think it's such a waste!

And the index is like 30$, you're not exactly making a huge investment. Skip on eating out once or twice in the future and you'd break even.

And it's not like it's just Death Guard in the book either. You could split the cost of the book with a friend, that's what my group is doing - we don't need multiple copies when we all play at the same place.

 Clanan wrote:
So how much of this wailing is moot once the actual DG book comes out? GW said they're written and in the playtesting phase already.

Depends how good a job they do. Depends on when it comes out. Depends on what all we actually end up getting.

It's entirely possible that the DG codex comes out and DG is non viable as a stand alone faction, and you'd be better of running generic nurgle CSM army, meaning all we will really get is a couple new units that aren't even all that impressive as it stands.

@DarkSabre
>Destroyers
Are you referencing the 30k rules as fluff?
Because I have read most of the HH series and can't remember a single flying Death Guard utilising a jump pack.
If there is an instance, please let me know so I can re-read that book and be enlightened.

The wikis never mention jump packs being a DG speciality either.

People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

If you want to win with death guard all of this energy being spent to whine about what has already been done should be spent finding ways to make them work. Even if they aren't technically <deathguard> units like havocs still add firepower to the list. And we can easily take nurgle daemons to help bolster the ranks.

Maybe instead of focusing on wanting everyone to be from the deathguard legion start thinking of it as a hardened group of deathguard veterans leading the unwashed nurgle hordes into battle.

Well, it was mentioned they enjoyed fielding destroyers, most of whom were armed with different types of pistols and hand held explosives.

From which we can conclude one of the following is true:

1. The DG used transports to get them close enough to use their weapons
2. The DG used jump packs to get them close enough to use their weapons
3. The DG (as well as their primarch) routinely fielded them in the most idiotic way ever, one that would almost never be effective against anyone who wasn't an absolute moron.

So either the DG (and their primarch) were raging morons, the DG didn't utilize toxic, phosphex, and radiation based weaponry on a routine basis and likely used it far less than most legions, or the DG used transports/jump packs on a routine basis.

That's kinda where we find ourselves at moment. You can get away with arguing that fielding guys with bolters and having them slog it isn't that unreasonable, not so much when they get pistols and various short range explosives.

orkychaos wrote:
People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

Every unit? No. The units which make sense and work together to create a viable stand alone army? Yes.

For example, if we had terminators with deepstriking, the lack of faster options isn't a big issue, we have a fluffy method of bypassing it. Or some variety of vanguard (scout) type movement after deployment. Both are fluffier than letting everyone pile into rhinos.

Also, vindicators are removed from our list purely because they didn't exist in the DG army list from back in late 3rd edition, because they weren't on the CSM army list at all. That's despite them being established since as DGs favored vehicle.

In short, I'd like our list to be fluffy and still moderately effective. Failing that, I'd take fluffy or effective. As it stands, it is neither fluffy nor does it work as a stand alone force, making it a total failure.

You should read Flight of the Eisenstein, SilverAlien, they rarely use transports, though through use of boarding torpedoes, or launching a distraction while sneaking up from the other side to get in closer is more their thing.

Not flying up walls ahead of their lines in jump packs.
Not zooming around the battlefield on bikes.

And anyone who probably didn't like to follow that doctrine would have ended up on Istvaan anyway.

That's all I will say on this topic, I think everyone knows my opinion on this now

 Rippy wrote:
You should read Flight of the Eisenstein, SilverAlien, they rarely use transports, though through use of boarding torpedoes, or launching a distraction while sneaking up from the other side to get in closer is more their thing.

Not flying up walls ahead of their lines in jump packs.
Not zooming around the battlefield on bikes.

And anyone who probably didn't like to follow that doctrine would have ended up on Istvaan anyway.

That's all I will say on this topic, I think everyone knows my opinion on this now

Hey I wouldn't be adverse to some infiltrating or deepstriking kamikaze units, but that's not how destroyers are described nor how rules represent them. Plus it's not how DG are represented in 40k or 30k rules either, DG have more rules restricting them from deepstrike in 30k than jump packs, and in 40k DG have almost no deepstriking. Neither has penalties or restrictions on transports either, while 40k DG and CSM as a whole hasn't had any infiltration to speak of for a few editions now.

Our list remains neither fluffy nor effective. Both would be best, I'd settle for removing the inane restrictions if they aren't going to balance it out properly (and with bloat flies being the new pyrovore in an edition where pyrovores are usable, they aren't) since they aren't getting the fluff correct anyways.

Unless they add lot of new awesome units AND increase the plague marines wounds to 2... the restrictions are a pain.

Joined with the fact that new plague marines are worst versions of old ones

orkychaos wrote:
People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

If you want to win with death guard all of this energy being spent to whine about what has already been done should be spent finding ways to make them work. Even if they aren't technically <deathguard> units like havocs still add firepower to the list. And we can easily take nurgle daemons to help bolster the ranks.

Maybe instead of focusing on wanting everyone to be from the deathguard legion start thinking of it as a hardened group of deathguard veterans leading the unwashed nurgle hordes into battle.

Ahem. The Thousand Sons list is by no means as restrictive as the current Death Guard list - if anything it's a lot more flexible as Daemon Engines and Vindicators made the cut. IF you compare the two - and then consider what we know to have been painted in the Studio armies then the lists make sense as to how they came to them.

Wade Pryce saved World Eaters players - his army pretty much has everything from the CSM list in it and as a result they made decisions based on that.
Matt Hutson's personal army is clearly the basis of what they let into the Thousand Sons choices - a lot more restrictive but still better than what the Death Guard got...

Which is a list that looks...dated.

Because it's literally based off what they had in their Studio army cabinets - which when they last painted a CSM army proper was way back in 3rd edition - Daemon Prince, Typhus, Plague Marines - check. Defiler - check. Predator and Land Raider, check.

Trying to compare the index lists to KDK is also...moot. KDK is a single edition faction. I wouldn't use it as the basis of everything. And when you say they didn't have access to everything...well that's great. They did however combine Daemons and CSM and also made Possessed and Warp Talons not utter trash through stacking the Mark of and Daemon of rules. But they were also a short lived experiment of a concept.

DG literally has a single anti tank unit, the predator, unless you want to count the HQ choices or a landraider (and I will start shouting if someone tries to tell me the landraider is a good choice for dedicated anti tank).

It is not currently a functional list. It... might be a functional list eventually, but that's debatable.

Actually... is there anything even useful the DG have?

Default psychic discipline is better, but I guess we get two in faction.

Plague marines as troops... but beserkers and noise marines are as good (arguably better) for their cost. EC has no real restriction either.

The bloat drone costs as much as a vindicator and has two slightly better flamers as weapons. Again, utter trash.

Our unique HQ radial ability is CC exclusive on a slow legion isn't that good in CC.

Typhus and poxwalkers, that's it. The only potentially good thing.

Death Guard sould be the most resiliant force of Chaos Space Marines and be a short range shooting army mixed with a good meele.

Thats if you want them to be a proper subfactions with pros and cons.

Bikes and Jumpacks can be totally fluffy. Afterall, in 30k all legions used all the same equipement, just in different proportions. But you can't have all the Cultists factions having everything. If you want that, just play a generic CSM army.

And I'm not saying this to justifie the actual DG list of the Index. Just talking in general to their future.

 Galas wrote:
Death Guard sould be the most resiliant force of Chaos Space Marines and be a short range shooting army mixed with a good meele.

Thats if you want them to be a proper subfactions with pros and cons.

Bikes and Jumpacks can be totally fluffy. Afterall, in 30k all legions used all the same equipement, just in different proportions. But you can't have all the Cultists factions having everything. If you want that, just play a generic CSM army.

And I'm not saying this to justifie the actual DG list of the Index. Just talking in general to their future.

You see, I don't agree with that approach. 'You don't want all the sub-factions having everything!'

I want our sub-factions to be on par with Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves - who pretty much have everything from their respective books for the most part. In some cases they have more. And in the case of the new shiny Primaris they're getting those too.

I don't think us losing options is quite the approach we should be settling for.

Actually, all of those armies don't have everything. Centurions for example, and some other units. But I think that they should have even less.

if not you end like the old SPace Wolves. Space Marines+++.

Thats not how you do proper sub-factions. A good sub-facion is a more specialized force with a more restricted playstile and unit rosters but that is better in their speciality and with some special units focused in their "ethos".

People always accepted that for example, a good Khorne sub-faction/army should lack any shooting capability and be a beast in meele. In old fantasy and AoS it works that way. And different factions have much more character.

But obviously, this comes down to personal preference and how one sees the relation faction-subfaction.

I see all the arguments and understand the possible reasoning. What still tans my hide is I built a vectorium, maulerfiends, bikes, havocs, which I did not own prior to the suppliment coming out. I had heldrakes already and I used the gak out of them. So I just don't understand regardless of the reasons listed how they could not consider the models sold because of old rules, and then make them unusable, thus back door invalidating them, as Deathguard. I know I can still take them, and just not get benefits but it does tan my hide a bit.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


That's not how it works son.

If that's the type of tone you're going to continue to take, I'm not bothering to debate your nonsense when it is clear what GW's policies are regarding this stuff. This isn't "my rules" it's the practices GW has had in place for years now, stemming from the Chapter house lawsuit.

Just take Forgeworld to flesh out your lists until the codex drops.
Spartan has 8 lascannons shots, awesome.
Plague Hulk should be exciting as well, haven't seen rules yet.

And once we have Mortarion and our other missing puzzle pieces, we will all be in for a good time

Also you CAN still play 7th, if you are unhappy with the state of Death Guard, until we get codex.

Not sure if someone has mentioned this..

But Noxious Blightbringer debuffs friendly models within 7" as well as the enemy..

GodDamUser wrote:
Not sure if someone has mentioned this..

But Noxious Blightbringer debuffs friendly models within 7" as well as the enemy..

I actually thought that the first time I read it, but they do specify "units within range of an enemy blightbringer". Why they didn't go with "enemy units within range of a blightbringer" I don't know, because that's at least two of us now who didn't catch that.

 Rippy wrote:
Just take Forgeworld to flesh out your lists until the codex drops.
Spartan has 8 lascannons shots, awesome.
Plague Hulk should be exciting as well, haven't seen rules yet.

And once we have Mortarion and our other missing puzzle pieces, we will all be in for a good time

Also you CAN still play 7th, if you are unhappy with the state of Death Guard, until we get codex.

We also don't know that spartans (or plaguehulks) can even officially be deathguard to my knowledge. No idea if enough communication between GW and FW happened for them to realize they need to make a note of expanding the DG (or tsons) list.

You assume morty will be worth taking. People still aren't sure magnus is worth the points.

We could still be playing 2nd or 3rd edition as well. Or 5th. Just depends on what everyone is playing... which will probably be 8th.

Hoping that DG and Morty are out in July (7th month and all). 4+ months from a teaser video to release is a little cruel.

I am making a few assumptions, you are right SilverAlien. :(
The communication between GW and FW would have been very high, but let's hope that the Spartan has a sentance that says "in addition to the tables contained in the index, add this vehicle to all <Legion> keyword tables" or something along those lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Hoping that DG and Morty are out in July (7th month and all). 4+ months from a teaser video to release is a little cruel.

Would be a good month to count the seven!

 Galas wrote:
Actually, all of those armies don't have everything. Centurions for example, and some other units. But I think that they should have even less.

if not you end like the old SPace Wolves. Space Marines+++.

Thats not how you do proper sub-factions. A good sub-facion is a more specialized force with a more restricted playstile and unit rosters but that is better in their speciality and with some special units focused in their "ethos".

People always accepted that for example, a good Khorne sub-faction/army should lack any shooting capability and be a beast in meele. In old fantasy and AoS it works that way. And different factions have much more character.

But obviously, this comes down to personal preference and how one sees the relation faction-subfaction.

To be perfectly honest, they have everything apart from what was introduced in 6th ed onwards. Hell, Codex SM stole things FROM them (poor Blood Angels :( ).

And I actually know a very dedicated World Eaters player who was not impressed at the 'you're all frothing berserkers who cannot use a gun' approach. Khorne is a god of war. Slaughter from afar is preferable to no slaughter and the Khornate daemon engines in Epic were very shooty in their nature. I do feel they should have a definite assault feel to them - berserkers are good as a core choice but excluding firepower isn't really viable. Well, possibly in 8th where Assaults and the Counter-Offensive CP on Berserkers are just brutal.

And unless GW are going to seriously trim things away from BA, DA and SW - which they're not and we pretty much know it - I'm not in favour of being another guinea pig for their change of direction approach. Chaos almost always ends up like this and the only time it worked out was 3.5. In late 4th ed it was a disaster, in 6th ed. it was a disaster. Hell, KDK were considered weak amongst the Decurion armies...so it didn't work out too well there either.

I still stick by my 'what we had painted in the studio cabinet' approach as to why our list looks like a 3rd edition relic list.

And I honestly hope that we get options. Because right now we're making a lot of assumptions....and hoping those work out.

Hell, even the FW index is an assumption - if they don't have a statement allowing ALL Legions to take their units then Death Guard and Thousand Sons are stuffed. Like, nice reward for folk who pretty much have rigidly stuck to an army from the word go - having to split it and create a Pepsi-Death Guard faction to be able to use things - which is going to be frustrating when you have a unified scheme across an army - people are going to assume that they are all X until you explain, whoops, no they're not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


That's not how it works son.

If that's the type of tone you're going to continue to take, I'm not bothering to debate your nonsense when it is clear what GW's policies are regarding this stuff. This isn't "my rules" it's the practices GW has had in place for years now, stemming from the Chapter house lawsuit.

Remember, you took the snide tone first. You're the one that quite happily stuck his head in the sand. And I love how you are assuming still.

Show us the Chosen kit. Show us the special weapon Havoc kit.

You cannot. So you cannot assume that GW have the approach of 'if we don't make a kit for it the model will have no rules'.

Remember, this is nu-GW, not the crapfest we had during the Kirby-era. And they've already shown that they are quite different.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Remember, you took the snide tone first. You're the one that quite happily stuck his head in the sand. And I love how you are assuming still.

Show us the Chosen kit. Show us the special weapon Havoc kit.

You cannot. So you cannot assume that GW have the approach of 'if we don't make a kit for it the model will have no rules'.

Remember, this is nu-GW, not the crapfest we had during the Kirby-era. And they've already shown that they are quite different.

Actually, I didn't. I was conversing​ with someone else and you jumped in with a picture of a kit thats been discontinued for 10 years as some sort of proof of some argument that wasnt even happening. And then you have continued with with obnoxious posts that continue to miss the point I am making.

We have a chosen kit in Dark Vengeance for what its worth, but the fact that GW has failed to update the kit since well prior to the Chapterhouse lawsuit, it is a weird scenario where they also have a policy of not invalidating units in current codexes, but also havent produced anything new outside of starter set models, similar to the chaos cultists.

As for Havocs, nice fething goalpost moving by trying to state special weapon havocs, which have never been a unique unit choice for standard CSMs. There is a fething Havoc kit, despite being currently out of stock on the website.

None of that, however, disputes my original point that they aren't going to create rules for units in new factions, of which Death Guard are in this edition, if they do not produce models for those units. I will be as happy as anyone if we get rules back Havocs, Chosen and whatever else we lost, but I'm not counting on it. And thata been my point the whole time, despite whatever irrelevant tangents you've dragged this into.

for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

BrianDavion wrote:
for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

That would be cool, and the teaser photos that appear to show heavily mutated rhinos could be really amazing models.

 Starfarer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

That would be cool, and the teaser photos that appear to show heavily mutated rhinos could be really amazing models.

well right now, given what we've seen from GW teasers we know Primaris Marines are getting 2 new tanks. Dark Imperium also suggests we're getting 2 new types of infantry (Agressor and Reiver squads IIRC). if we assume some stand alone Primaris HQ minis as well, and a death guard release scheudle that is about on par, death guard could be looking at a pretty beefy release.

Wait, what? Flavour of the month loyalists are getting reaver units before black legion? I mean they're basically chosen but still.

The Reiver is some kind of stealt-armoured Primaris with skull-helmets specialized in mele assasination.

I don't think thats anything to do with "Reavers"

So, as someone who's considering a CSM army (possibly with a Nurgle theme) is there any good news? I'm seeing LOTS of doom and gloom here