Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Also a sad example of what oversimplification does to beautiful things. Note the Plague Marine with a bolt pistol and chainsword

I noticed that, haha, I won't be changing my either, as I said earlier in the thread.

 Rippy wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Also a sad example of what oversimplification does to beautiful things. Note the Plague Marine with a bolt pistol and chainsword

I noticed that, haha, I won't be changing my either, as I said earlier in the thread.

no reason to change it, rule of cool > WYSIWYG

Pox walkers are bad. Any other unit with several buffs vs an enemy with a - 1 to hit will be good haha.

As people said, guardsman are the cool. They are cheaper. They can do stuff alone. And they have ton of synergy. And now every imperial army can take them easy.

No mention they are even cheaper than cultists (lol).

The zombies should cost 4 points. Is a unit with zero shoots, slow, low attributes and not to much melee efficiently... Why cost so much is a mystery the same than the overpriced cultists.

And the overpriced plague marines. Because they ha e cool miniatures and such, but they are overpriced like hell on this edition meta. The question is not why take pm instead chosen..... Is why don't take choosen and play as plague marines haha.

Damn,the primaris marines are better plague marines than plague marines... And cheaper too.

Also don't think they will change the PM on the chaos codex.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah I'm not too sure about Plague Marines. I agree they don't seem worth their points. TSons are better and cheaper. The T5 and Disgustingly Resilient is good, but I don't know if it's that good. Though the blight launcher looks pretty good.

Stop looking at JUST the Plague Marines by themselves, with a little support a min squad can kill quite a range of units. They are only 8 points more expensive then Rubrics and are much better at both Ranged and Melee. T5 means your almost never wounded on 2s which is big, there are a lot of S8 weapons out there that will rip through Rubrics and barley put a dent in Plague Marines. Easy access to rerolling 1s to hit means your offensive capabilities are much higher. Smaller footprint on the squad means you can use cover better, and lower model count means you don't suffer from Morale losses.

Rubrics are super inefficient they don't have enough bullets to hit anything enough to kill it, not to mention they lack the S on their weapons to kill things, the only way to get the actual upgrade is to get 10 guys, they are gak in CC, have little access to things that augment their shooting, and the access they do have is expensive (150 points), they pay 45 points for a Sorcerer that isn't a Sorcerer is crap in CC, has no ranged weapon options, can't buff the unit, and if he perils will kill half the unit. The ONE buff we do have easy access too is a reroll on a 5+ invul save we will most likely never use and it only ups the probability of success by 6% (.33-->.39) and we don't have the model count for that to be useful at all. SOT are better in every way, and cost 3 points more then a 10 man squad.

Right now Rubrics are one of the worst units to pick for a Thousand Sons army. Know what the best is? Tzzangors, my go to unit are upgraded Cultists. Ill trade with you in a second, we can both write strongly worded letters to GW, although I don't think it will make much of a difference.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah I'm not too sure about Plague Marines. I agree they don't seem worth their points. TSons are better and cheaper. The T5 and Disgustingly Resilient is good, but I don't know if it's that good. Though the blight launcher looks pretty good.

Stop looking at JUST the Plague Marines by themselves, with a little support a min squad can kill quite a range of units. They are only 8 points more expensive then Rubrics and are much better at both Ranged and Melee. T5 means your almost never wounded on 2s which is big, there are a lot of S8 weapons out there that will rip through Rubrics and barley put a dent in Plague Marines. Easy access to rerolling 1s to hit means your offensive capabilities are much higher. Smaller footprint on the squad means you can use cover better, and lower model count means you don't suffer from Morale losses.

Rubrics are super inefficient they don't have enough bullets to hit anything enough to kill it, not to mention they lack the S on their weapons to kill things, the only way to get the actual upgrade is to get 10 guys, they are gak in CC, have little access to things that augment their shooting, and the access they do have is expensive (150 points), they pay 45 points for a Sorcerer that isn't a Sorcerer is crap in CC, has no ranged weapon options, can't buff the unit, and if he perils will kill half the unit. The ONE buff we do have easy access too is a reroll on a 5+ invul save we will most likely never use and it only ups the probability of success by 6% (.33-->.39) and we don't have the model count for that to be useful at all. SOT are better in every way, and cost 3 points more then a 10 man squad.

Right now Rubrics are one of the worst units to pick for a Thousand Sons army. Know what the best is? Tzzangors, my go to unit are upgraded Cultists. Ill trade with you in a second, we can both write strongly worded letters to GW, although I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Yep, I will agree that synergy makes Plague Marines better. The Plaguecaster making enemies -1 to hit them on top of their T5 and Disgustingly Resliliant would make them incredibly tough, and they can take options to be good in both melee and ranged. Then having that bell dude by them, giving them more reliable advance distances. You have convinced me

Ignore this lol. I missed the part where Plague Champions can randomly take Plasma Guns.

 Roknar wrote:
but anybody not convinced that the are going to be completely replaced by primaris is a hopeless romantic.

Are there people that actually believe that? I thought it was kinda obvious.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
but anybody not convinced that the are going to be completely replaced by primaris is a hopeless romantic.

Are there people that actually believe that? I thought it was kinda obvious.

Can people please not turn our haven of rot in to another thread about Primaris? Thanks

What would be the best way to make a DG army as durable as possible?

Can someone help me with the Plague Champion please?

It says

The Plague Champion may replace is bolt pistol and bolt gun with a power fist and plasma gun, or with items from the Champion Equipment List.

If I don't want to take a Plasma Gun does that mean I have to buy the fist and replace either the bolter/bolt pistol? Or do I have to buy a bolter and a power fist?

I can only replace his Plague knife with a Plague sword

Hmmm. So I got some more MkIII vets to bulk out my troops (which will be plague marines), I have a FW nurgle sorceror I can use as a plaguecaster proxy, and I could proxy up another. Couple of 9-mans in rhinos could be fun.

Think the third rhino gets dropped (original plan was 3x MSU in rhinos, but they are a tad expensive now and it seems larger units being buffed is the way forwards).

I've got two weekends to get them painted up, plus two heldrakes and (maybe) a knight...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Can someone help me with the Plague Champion please?

It says

The Plague Champion may replace is bolt pistol and bolt gun with a power fist and plasma gun, or with items from the Champion Equipment List.

If I don't want to take a Plasma Gun does that mean I have to buy the fist and replace either the bolter/bolt pistol? Or do I have to buy a bolter and a power fist?

I can only replace his Plague knife with a Plague sword

I'd put money on this being a typo and should probably be a plasma pistol... but hey, it's RNGeederps, so who knows.

Franarok wrote:
Pox walkers are bad. Any other unit with several buffs vs an enemy with a - 1 to hit will be good haha.

As people said, guardsman are the cool. They are cheaper. They can do stuff alone. And they have ton of synergy. And now every imperial army can take them easy.

No mention they are even cheaper than cultists (lol).

The zombies should cost 4 points. Is a unit with zero shoots, slow, low attributes and not to much melee efficiently... Why cost so much is a mystery the same than the overpriced cultists.

And the overpriced plague marines. Because they ha e cool miniatures and such, but they are overpriced like hell on this edition meta. The question is not why take pm instead chosen..... Is why don't take choosen and play as plague marines haha.

Damn,the primaris marines are better plague marines than plague marines... And cheaper too.

Also don't think they will change the PM on the chaos codex.

I still don't think Poxwalkers suck. Do guardsmen have a 5+ save that they can always roll, even against mortal wounds? Do guardsmen have access to a commander who can give them T4, S4? Do guardsmen have 2 attacks each in melee? Do guardsmen have the ability to just replenish their unit for each kill they make? Even with only a movement of 4" a turn, we have access to a pretty cheap model who can give us a reliable advance move with re-rolls, effecting more than one unit, meaning pretty cheap transportation essentially, making them less slow than they seem too. At worst they're good cannon fodder for the heroes, at best they'll be a big thorn in your opponent's side as they struggle to get rid of them while they constantly replenish with each kill.
Of course this is just my theory, but thinking about all the bonuses you can chuck on them, and how their own bonuses seem to work, they could be a really cool unit.
Guardsmen are probably too cheap and will most likely be quite powerful if people want to spam mass infantry armies. But new editions always come with flaws that quickly get addressed. Cultists seem the worst off, but I haven't seen the buffs you can give them within the Chaos Dex to know yet. Points costs are determined by potential, whether that be synergy with other units or buffs that units can grant them, not by individual strength.

No, but they shoot. And they could have orders, and their leadership can be improved. Also they can take diverse kind or weapons, making them versatile.
And they are cheaper. That is also a very important point.

Also a unit that is "decent" only if several hq babysitting them, is not a very good unit since you start to be forced to take those specific hq near that unit. Guard can make damage even if no a hq near (or units equivalent to the bell guy).

A guard is better than a cultists. And way better than the walkers. Zangoors are better than the walkers hahaha

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
What would be the best way to make a DG army as durable as possible?

I have a super cool idea. What if we used the necron index as count as DG? They are exactly what DG and nurgle should be.

Franarok wrote:
No, but they shoot. And they could have orders, and their leadership can be improved. Also they can take diverse kind or weapons, making them versatile.
And they are cheaper. That is also a very important point.

Also a unit that is "decent" only if several hq babysitting them, is not a very good unit since you start to be forced to take those specific hq near that unit. Guard can make damage even if no a hq near (or units equivalent to the bell guy).

A guard is better than a cultists. And way better than the walkers. Zangoors are better than the walkers hahaha

Different armies play differently. From what I know, Death Guard work as a unified swarm to slowly win through attrition in the fluff. I feel like that comes through with the necessary synergy of the new unit profiles.
And like I said above, I agree that guardsmen are possibly too cheap at the moment, but we won't know until enough games have been played to get a definitive answer.
Tzaangors do also look pretty good now, but they're also more expensive than Poxwalkers.

zerosignal wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Can someone help me with the Plague Champion please?

It says

The Plague Champion may replace is bolt pistol and bolt gun with a power fist and plasma gun, or with items from the Champion Equipment List.

If I don't want to take a Plasma Gun does that mean I have to buy the fist and replace either the bolter/bolt pistol? Or do I have to buy a bolter and a power fist?

I can only replace his Plague knife with a Plague sword

I'd put money on this being a typo and should probably be a plasma pistol... but hey, it's RNGeederps, so who knows.

Plasma pistol and power fist and in champion weapon options anyway. So looks like plasmagun+ fist is deliberate for
. Reasons? Some designer have that model??

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
What would be the best way to make a DG army as durable as possible?

Well, they'd need to realize that DR isn't worth nearly the price tag they put on it. Currently normal marines are more durable, as the extra wounds help more. Same with plague knives, having more bodies on the field does more for melee power than a minor gimmick.

As it stands, taking 10 CSM is more efficient than 5 plague marines. 10 CSM costs slightly more (130 vs 105) but you still get 2 specials+1 combi, are tougher and better in melee. Havocs and chosen make PM look even sadder.

Honestly, they should drop the toughness increase this edition. It isn't particularly good anymore. Give me an extra wound and DR and a fair cost for that (as in, probably what they cost now).

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Different armies play differently. From what I know, Death Guard work as a unified swarm to slowly win through attrition in the fluff. I feel like that comes through with the necessary synergy of the new unit profiles

But again, the synergy isn't enough. The buffs typhus gives make the poxwalkers almost worth the base price, but honestly he costs far too much to babysit a chafe unit and slowly walk them up the field.

 sennacherib wrote:
I am on the upset side of things. I have 4 plague marines with Meltaguns that are now irrelevant. Also 4 bikes all heavily customized. Obliterates, mutilators, vindicators, etc.

This coupled with the fact that my Legion rules were only out for 6 months makes me upset. Also, I play khorn darmonkin and they are gone as well.

Not happy.

Dude it says in the PM profile you can take 2 special weapons, you don't have to use the newly added grenade launcher.

So, did anybody else watch any of the Dark Imperium boxed set games they had on Warhammer TV's twitch channel?

One of the first games they played was Death Guard vs. Primaris, armies consisting of models from the starter set but with some other units backing them up. The Death Guard had a Defiler, for example.

Fairly early in the game itself, they spend a solid five to ten minutes talking about the Death Guard army: how the application of the Death Guard keyword to units like the Defiler makes it a part of the Death Guard faction, and confers the Disgustingly Resilient save along with the other benefits. They show the Defiler making it's DR saves against some lascannon shots from a Land Raider.

So what's the deal here? I haven't heard anyone mention this on the forums yet, sorry if I missed something. Did the good folks at War TV make some incorrect assumptions? What other sources do we have for the ruling in this case that generic Chaos unit don't get Death Guard rules, aside from the rules of course? Might we be able to draw some amount of intention from this example?

 Jambles wrote:
So, did anybody else watch any of the Dark Imperium boxed set games they had on Warhammer TV's twitch channel?

One of the first games they played was Death Guard vs. Primaris, armies consisting of models from the starter set but with some other units backing them up. The Death Guard had a Defiler, for example.

Fairly early in the game itself, they spend a solid five to ten minutes talking about the Death Guard army: how the application of the Death Guard keyword to units like the Defiler makes it a part of the Death Guard faction, and confers the Disgustingly Resilient save along with the other benefits. They show the Defiler making it's DR saves against some lascannon shots from a Land Raider.

So what's the deal here? I haven't heard anyone mention this on the forums yet, sorry if I missed something. Did the good folks at War TV make some incorrect assumptions? What other sources do we have for the ruling in this case that generic Chaos unit don't get Death Guard rules, aside from the rules of course? Might we be able to draw some amount of intention from this example?

That was confirmed to be error I believe. Optionally, it could be they might have some knowledge of what the final DG army rules/codex might look like, if you'd like to stay hyped.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
So, did anybody else watch any of the Dark Imperium boxed set games they had on Warhammer TV's twitch channel?

One of the first games they played was Death Guard vs. Primaris, armies consisting of models from the starter set but with some other units backing them up. The Death Guard had a Defiler, for example.

Fairly early in the game itself, they spend a solid five to ten minutes talking about the Death Guard army: how the application of the Death Guard keyword to units like the Defiler makes it a part of the Death Guard faction, and confers the Disgustingly Resilient save along with the other benefits. They show the Defiler making it's DR saves against some lascannon shots from a Land Raider.

So what's the deal here? I haven't heard anyone mention this on the forums yet, sorry if I missed something. Did the good folks at War TV make some incorrect assumptions? What other sources do we have for the ruling in this case that generic Chaos unit don't get Death Guard rules, aside from the rules of course? Might we be able to draw some amount of intention from this example?

That was confirmed to be error I believe. Optionally, it could be they might have some knowledge of what the final DG army rules/codex might look like, if you'd like to stay hyped.

It sure confused the heck outta me.

 Jambles wrote:
So, did anybody else watch any of the Dark Imperium boxed set games they had on Warhammer TV's twitch channel?

One of the first games they played was Death Guard vs. Primaris, armies consisting of models from the starter set but with some other units backing them up. The Death Guard had a Defiler, for example.

Fairly early in the game itself, they spend a solid five to ten minutes talking about the Death Guard army: how the application of the Death Guard keyword to units like the Defiler makes it a part of the Death Guard faction, and confers the Disgustingly Resilient save along with the other benefits. They show the Defiler making it's DR saves against some lascannon shots from a Land Raider.

So what's the deal here? I haven't heard anyone mention this on the forums yet, sorry if I missed something. Did the good folks at War TV make some incorrect assumptions? What other sources do we have for the ruling in this case that generic Chaos unit don't get Death Guard rules, aside from the rules of course? Might we be able to draw some amount of intention from this example?

Someone who saw the index in person said that all deathwatch units get the special issue ammunition. It might be that there are rules we don't see in the leaked pages that help account for these differences. Honestly it makes sense if there is a rule on the front page that says something like "all models from this specific faction from the community list gets the army special rules"

Even GW's own staff can't play the game properly, haha...

zerosignal wrote:
Even GW's own staff can't play the game properly, haha...

The game is clearly still too complicated. Maybe the game will be easier to remember next edition when every model will only have a single stat called win. If your win stat is higher then your opponents you win.

Franarok wrote:
No, but they shoot. And they could have orders, and their leadership can be improved. Also they can take diverse kind or weapons, making them versatile.
And they are cheaper. That is also a very important point.

Improved leadership? Why would you say that? Poxwalkers are fearless, they literally cannot have better LD because you cant go up from never fail, they have better leadership then any unit that doesn't auto pass morale tests. Yes Guardsman are cheaper and you can kill 7 of them and the rest will run away on a 2+.

Franarok wrote:
Also a unit that is "decent" only if several hq babysitting them, is not a very good unit since you start to be forced to take those specific hq near that unit. Guard can make damage even if no a hq near (or units equivalent to the bell guy).

Against horde units Guard/Orks/Nids there amazing. Against non-horde armies there decent but then they wont have the bullets to kill them.

Franarok wrote:
A guard is better than a cultists. And way better than the walkers. Zangoors are better than the walkers hahaha

Tzzangors are not better, there about the same, maybe worse. Tzzangors are more expensive, have almost the same morale as Guardsman with NO way to buff it, have the same save 5++ but cant save against mortal wounds, are NEVER to be take in groups of more then 10, the only upside is that they can do more damage independently except they will never make it to combat unless put in a Rhino which doubles their cost, they need support too but they need LD buffs and move buffs. Poxwalkers needs move and damage buffs. Slanessh will get units that are stupid fast and have weak attacks and will need LD and Durability buffs. (Hopefully they will be Spaven)

zerosignal wrote:
Even GW's own staff can't play the game properly, haha...

keep in mind if you're play testing it's easy to get confused as the rules could change on a weekly basis.

SilverAlien wrote:
Well, they'd need to realize that DR isn't worth nearly the price tag they put on it. Currently normal marines are more durable, as the extra wounds help more. Same with plague knives, having more bodies on the field does more for melee power than a minor gimmick. As it stands, taking 10 CSM is more efficient than 5 plague marines. 10 CSM costs slightly more (130 vs 105) but you still get 2 specials+1 combi, are tougher and better in melee. Havocs and chosen make PM look even sadder. Honestly, they should drop the toughness. increase this edition. It isn't particularly good anymore. Give me an extra wound and DR and a fair cost for that (as in, probably what they cost now).

The T difference is only nil vs S3/6/7/9/10+ weapons so S4/5/8 the three most common S on weapons right now. Bringing 10 guys means your less likely to be able to take advantage of cover, bringing 10 guys is also more expensive for a unit that is marginally more durable

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, the synergy isn't enough. The buffs typhus gives make the poxwalkers almost worth the base price, but honestly he costs far too much to babysit a chafe unit and slowly walk them up the field.

Typhus is 164 points, he has 6" ranged attacks, why are you not running him. He also doesn't buff A unit, he buffs all units of Poxwalkers he can buff 10 units. Bring more then 1 unit, 2 units of 20 and Typhus comes to 404 Points and you have 40 wounds the enemy is going to have to chew threw. Add a Blightbringer they are now all moving 9" a turn on average, that is not "slowly walking" that is World War Z. That setup isn't even 500 points. So you can bring that in a 1k Point game and still have over 500 points left for other stuff, not that you would need it since your zombies will convert every enemy infantry into a Poxwalker. You don't even realize how good Poxwalkers are since you don't realize that a unit of 10 pox walkers can lock 2 units of guardsman in combat with an average charge and 6 kills, neither of which are unlikely. The question DG players should be asking is "if i bring a unit of 20 Poxwalkers can it become a unit of 30 Poxwalkers" not "gawd why is my fearless unit that multiplies in CC 60 points per 10".

I'm am very excited to see what the "greater bloat drone" sheet looks like. I own 5 of them and would like to have an army that is full of drones. Bloat drones, greater bloat drones, and plague drones flying all beside ol morty.

Bringing 10 guys is marginally more, but considering you are worth more on a point value (you are harder to kill and more damaging per point) the only real advantage plague marines have are there unique options. Which is the blight launcher and the sarge getting a powerfist and plasma (while most have to stick to combi plasma). Those are the only advantages PM's have, and they are extremely sad advantages.

An equal number of points in guardsman kill poxwalkers so easily it isn't even funny. When typhus is involved, it becomes hilariously one sided because the guardsmen can either get HQs as well, or just stack more guard. Poxwalkers will never get into melee with double digit numbers, the idea they'd ever manage to get above 20 models is hilarious, they are so worthless that will never happen. 2 points more per model compared to guard which will always win on a model to model basis is sad.

Oh, and typhus moves 6" per turn on average if he advances. I love having my army slog up the field the first half the game, getting cut to ribbons so 75% of them die before they even manage to hurt my opponent. That's what poxwalkers and typhus are. If they were actually durable it'd be one thing, but poxwalkers are less durable than guardsman point for point. Even with typhus buffing them.

Nevermind