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I was going to say Plaguebearers, but then I thought about it. While Plaguebearers have a 5++, DR and the ability to -1 from enemy hit-rolls against the opponent if they have 20+ models, they can't replenish their numbers like Poxwalkers can. So they seem like a bit of a much of a muchness, especially as Plaguebearers are 2pts more. They seem to fill a similar roll, which is to be a distraction your opponent can't ignore, though perhaps the Poxwalkers could, in theory, be better at it, as once they reach the enemy lines, and there's enough of them, they could keep replenishing their numbers and be a really tough unit to get rid of and could tie up several shooty units your opponent would need fighting other things. On the flip side, Plaguebearers would most likely be much better at soaking damage at range, holding objectives and the like. So perhaps taking a mix of them for different jobs is better than taking one over the other.
I'm also interested to see the mathhammer smiths crack this question too, but that's my initial opinion.

There is one big question about plague bearer viability: are they paying for the plague swords? Chaos demon's price sheet does not list the price for plague swords. It is possible they should cost the same as for CSM, but other duplicate options (everything for demon princes) was reprinted. I'm assuming that the price is a total 8 for plague bearers, but if they must pay for the sword (and it costs three, same as for plague marines) they aren't as good.

As far as the math goes, at 8 plagues bearers are always tougher and more dangerous, even excluding plaguebearers 20+ buff and including poxwalkers 10+ buff. On the other hand, at 11 the reverse is true. Plaguebearers are barely as tough per point if they have over 20 models, slightly tougher if 20+ models and toughness 4 is helping, otherwise weaker. They are also always weaker in melee combat at 11 points, even if poxwalkers aren't getting the buff for 10+ and strength 4 is helping. Given my opinion that poxwalkers are overpriced, I'm assuming the 8 points is correct for plague bearers.

Also, we all are aware that returning poxwalkers to the field costs points, correct? In matched play at least. So it's not that useful imo.

SilverAlien wrote:
Also, we all are aware that returning poxwalkers to the field costs points, correct? In matched play at least. So it's not that useful imo.

Sorry, what? The poxwalkers acquired through killing other models in CC? That can't be right. How can you alot points for an indeterminate number of possible casualties?

nfe wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Also, we all are aware that returning poxwalkers to the field costs points, correct? In matched play at least. So it's not that useful imo.

Sorry, what? The poxwalkers acquired through killing other models in CC? That can't be right. How can you alot points for an indeterminate number of possible casualties?

you don't. they're the ONLY source of free units in 8th edition (although I suppose you could argue the effect is basicly a varient of ressurection protocals) which is proably why they're priced as high as they are

BrianDavion wrote:

nfe wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Also, we all are aware that returning poxwalkers to the field costs points, correct? In matched play at least. So it's not that useful imo.

Sorry, what? The poxwalkers acquired through killing other models in CC? That can't be right. How can you alot points for an indeterminate number of possible casualties?

you don't. they're the ONLY source of free units in 8th edition (although I suppose you could argue the effect is basicly a varient of ressurection protocals) which is proably why they're priced as high as they are

Wouldn't it work like AoS, where replenishing a unit's numbers doesn't cost points, it's only when you add to the unit's original number or summoning new units into the match when it costs points?

BrianDavion wrote:

nfe wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Also, we all are aware that returning poxwalkers to the field costs points, correct? In matched play at least. So it's not that useful imo.

Sorry, what? The poxwalkers acquired through killing other models in CC? That can't be right. How can you alot points for an indeterminate number of possible casualties?

you don't. they're the ONLY source of free units in 8th edition (although I suppose you could argue the effect is basicly a varient of ressurection protocals) which is proably why they're priced as high as they are

Not the only one as replenishing or adding to a unit does so as well.

Yeah. Adding models to a unit is free. The d6 models daemons can gain with their iccons if they roll a 1 in battleshock are free.

Creating a new unit from 0 cost points.

Oh, I thought it said models not units, well that ability is far more useful. Also answers my question about the demonic icons.

New DG image!

Looks like this guy from the upcoming MPP kit:


I love that there's a mutated bare-headed guy too!

Yeah, pumped for these multiparty kits

 Hive City Dweller wrote:


New DG image!

Looks like this guy from the upcoming MPP kit:


I love that there's a mutated bare-headed guy too!

So is this a weapon we don't have an option yet in the indexes? Looks like some kind of plague flail.

There is nothing equivalent to it for PM that I see. It'll likely be a variation on the plague weapons we have seen (knife, sword, and bell so far).

There is a good chance that the PMs will be very different in the DG codex, remember that we are a new faction, so we have no idea what is in store for PMs that are specific to the DG codex.

The current PMs are takeable for all chaos armies at the moment, our specific ones might be a lot better!

Good way for GW to sell more codices as well, if the PMs in a codex are better than the index...


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@Hive City Dweller's picture, is that another new termie up the top right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also like the more hunched over poses that they are giving to some of the new multi part PMs, as if the bigger they get from the gifts, the harder it is to keep themselves upright

That looks like a Plague Marine without a helmet too to the right (our right) of the front guy.


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 Rippy wrote:
There is a good chance that the PMs will be very different in the DG codex, remember that we are a new faction, so we have no idea what is in store for PMs that are specific to the DG codex.

The current PMs are takeable for all chaos armies at the moment, our specific ones might be a lot better!

Good way for GW to sell more codices as well, if the PMs in a codex are better than the index...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Hive City Dweller's picture, is that another new termie up the top right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also like the more hunched over poses that they are giving to some of the new multi part PMs, as if the bigger they get from the gifts, the harder it is to keep themselves upright

Oh yeah, could be another termie. Could the top left (our left) guy be wielding our new Blight Launcher as well?

Remember, the current indexes only have rules for models that are available. You think the primaries captains and lieutenants will have zero options? I doubt it. We will see a lot more stuff once the faction specific books drop as well as the model lines.

Fingers crossed for a DG Havoc style unit. 4x plasma or blight launchers sounds like a ton of fun.

 Leth wrote:
Remember, the current indexes only have rules for models that are available. You think the primaries captains and lieutenants will have zero options? I doubt it. We will see a lot more stuff once the faction specific books drop as well as the model lines.

I get that, but I was also confused as we had options that didn't exist yet (the plague launcher). Which is weird they would give us that option in the index but not the rest of them.

 Swara wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Remember, the current indexes only have rules for models that are available. You think the primaries captains and lieutenants will have zero options? I doubt it. We will see a lot more stuff once the faction specific books drop as well as the model lines.

I get that, but I was also confused as we had options that didn't exist yet (the plague launcher). Which is weird they would give us that option in the index but not the rest of them.

Perhaps it's a sort of teaser to show there's more new coming for us

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Swara wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Remember, the current indexes only have rules for models that are available. You think the primaries captains and lieutenants will have zero options? I doubt it. We will see a lot more stuff once the faction specific books drop as well as the model lines.

I get that, but I was also confused as we had options that didn't exist yet (the plague launcher). Which is weird they would give us that option in the index but not the rest of them.

Perhaps it's a sort of teaser to show there's more new coming for us

]]

I certainly hope so. I'd love to have even more DG specific weapons.
The plague launcher would also be a fun havoc weapon.

I'm hoping our terminators get/can take blight launchers as a basic weapon option, like tson terminators get upgrade combi bolters. That'd be a really shooty terminator squad. Havocs running with four would be neat as well. It's a solid versatile weapon, and assault really helps foot slogging units squeeze in a little more mobility

Point of interest: Have those Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams taken into account that the PMs get an armour save against their Lascannon shots? 5+ armour save even, if they're in cover. And the PMs only get wounded on 3+. And that's if the Heavy Weapons Teams manage to roll their 4+ to hit. Somehow that doesn't sound so nerfed to me at all. Perhaps someone would like to mathhammer it out in full...?

Snugiraffe wrote:
Point of interest: Have those Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams taken into account that the PMs get an armour save against their Lascannon shots? 5+ armour save even, if they're in cover. And the PMs only get wounded on 3+. And that's if the Heavy Weapons Teams manage to roll their 4+ to hit. Somehow that doesn't sound so nerfed to me at all. Perhaps someone would like to mathhammer it out in full...?

They inflict 1.4 wounds per turn, and with d6 damage the 5+ fnp barely touches the total (comes out to a bit over 1.32). So the heavy weapons team will take 3-4 rounds to kill them on average. An autocannon team (which is cheaper than a bare bones PM by two points) will be averaging around 1.6ish wounds, including fnp, putting them at roughly 3 turns to take a squad out (I'm unsure if using an autocannon on infantry qualifies as a bad idea though). Which doesn't even touch on small arms fire.

Honestly, the easiest way to describe why PM don't work is to compare them to noise marines. A noise marine with sonic blaster costs 20 points compared to 13 for a CSM. They are at least 1.5-3 times as effective offensively (as in, as good or better offensively for their points as taking more csm), without taking into account improved melee and the special ability. DG are barely 1.5 times tougher than normal csm, assuming toughness 5 is actually helping them, despite costing 21 points with an extremely marginal CC boost as the only other defining feature. Oh, and they slower than CSM, meaning they have an additional; trade off in addition to the point hike.

Most of the PM's real advantages have gone this edition, and they didn't get the point decrease that warranted. Plague knives aren't anywhere near as good, they lost their bolt pistols, they lost fearless (and morale is less of an issue in general for elite armies), and the buffs to heavy weapons they aren't even offering that much extra firepower over a kitted out 5 man CSM squad, or 10 if you want 2 heavy/special weapons.

Honestly, don't run DG or use PM till the codex drops. Havocs or normal CSM simply work better, giving you more value for your points in virtually every situation. Other cult troops (at least zerkers and noise marines, still need to look a tsons closer, hunch is they do best taken in full 20 man squads) do give you more value per point in areas, but less in others, making it more balanced. PM really don't have any advantages to speak of over the same number of points spent on CSM.

SilverAlien wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:
Point of interest: Have those Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams taken into account that the PMs get an armour save against their Lascannon shots? 5+ armour save even, if they're in cover. And the PMs only get wounded on 3+. And that's if the Heavy Weapons Teams manage to roll their 4+ to hit. Somehow that doesn't sound so nerfed to me at all. Perhaps someone would like to mathhammer it out in full...?

They inflict 1.4 wounds per turn, and with d6 damage the 5+ fnp barely touches the total (comes out to a bit over 1.32). So the heavy weapons team will take 3-4 rounds to kill them on average. An autocannon team (which is cheaper than a bare bones PM by two points) will be averaging around 1.6ish wounds, including fnp, putting them at roughly 3 turns to take a squad out (I'm unsure if using an autocannon on infantry qualifies as a bad idea though). Which doesn't even touch on small arms fire.

Honestly, the easiest way to describe why PM don't work is to compare them to noise marines. A noise marine with sonic blaster costs 20 points compared to 13 for a CSM. They are at least 1.5-3 times as effective offensively (as in, as good or better offensively for their points as taking more csm), without taking into account improved melee and the special ability. DG are barely 1.5 times tougher than normal csm, assuming toughness 5 is actually helping them, despite costing 21 points with an extremely marginal CC boost as the only other defining feature. Oh, and they slower than CSM, meaning they have an additional; trade off in addition to the point hike.

Most of the PM's real advantages have gone this edition, and they didn't get the point decrease that warranted. Plague knives aren't anywhere near as good, they lost their bolt pistols, they lost fearless (and morale is less of an issue in general for elite armies), and the buffs to heavy weapons they aren't even offering that much extra firepower over a kitted out 5 man CSM squad, or 10 if you want 2 heavy/special weapons.

Honestly, don't run DG or use PM till the codex drops. Havocs or normal CSM simply work better, giving you more value for your points in virtually every situation. Other cult troops (at least zerkers and noise marines, still need to look a tsons closer, hunch is they do best taken in full 20 man squads) do give you more value per point in areas, but less in others, making it more balanced. PM really don't have any advantages to speak of over the same number of points spent on CSM.

How many teams are you having fire and do 1.4 wounds?

 Leth wrote:
Yeah, pumped for these multiparty kits

A lot depends on the sprues for me.

Still, my plan with them is to do a squad of Possessed or two from them, mixing and matching with a Possessed box.

'Know No Fear' as the July hint in WD, so looks like we have to wait until at least August for the release, best case scenario.

Sigh.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
'Know No Fear' as the July hint in WD, so looks like we have to wait until at least August for the release, best case scenario.

Sigh.

I dunno, I find it odd GW would do a campaign where one of the featured factions is in a weird state of incomplete for much of it. a twin release would be ambitious for GW but if ANY armies would get it it'd be chaos and space marines

In regards to the Death Guard picture, I think the guy in the upper right is in Power Armor, look at the backpack.

Nonetheless, perhaps another Character?

I am thinking of putting Typhus, 5 x Terminators (after DG release), and 13 Pox Walkers in a spartan assault tank. Only problem is how much of an "eggs in one basket" list that is. Then have 2 or 3 squads of PMs in rhinos and the Plague Hulk of Nurgle, fleshing out the rest of the list with more pox walkers. This is the great thing about having multiple units in the same transport, as normally pox walkers would be a waste in a spartan, but may as well fill up the 25 seats! Plus this would really help them get in to melee, with how slow they are.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
In regards to the Death Guard picture, I think the guy in the upper right is in Power Armor, look at the backpack.

Nonetheless, perhaps another Character?

Good spot, I think you are right. It might be the sergeant from the multi part kit, as he looks pretty pimped out in horns.

Another new one at the top back, and small details of even stranger looking ones behind him. I don't think these are characters, maybe plague marine chosen or something. Or standard plague marines will get a different datasheet in the codex to go with the mp kit. Most characters/hq tend to be either larger, or more flamboyant with flashy detail. Though I can just about make out a powerfist on the one to the left and the one on the right has a melee weapon in his left hand. The bare headed one has a plague sword.

With the new rumour of point changes coming in an update on release, do we think they'll be changing the cost of Plague Marines?