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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pre-Fall Eldar

Asurmen in his previous life as the ordinary Iliathin used to go to watch a ball sport in a stadium. Originally played with points determining which team won, the rules were modified over time and reflected the increasing decadence of the pre-Fall Eldar empire. First brawling was allowed, then later bladed weapons. Then the latest change in a flashback was a rule disallowing courtside medical assistance. Eventually the ball game was discarded entirely and the stadium was converted into an arena for gladiator fights.

Jain Zar's background given in the novel Asurmen was actually a lie. She was a gladiator in the arenas.

Maugan Ra (original name not given) was a child abandoned by his parents at the gates to the pocket webway realm of BIel-Tanigh. As the Eldar became more decadent, the scholars of Biel-Tanigh became more violent, factionalized, and insane as their obsessions with study and knowledge were taken to extremes. Post-Fall, 20 of these Fatecallers as they were known survived. However while using an artifact, the Heart of Asuryan, to scry across time and space, many of them became enraptured and caught by Slaanesh so their bodies became frozen. Maugan Ra's title of Harvester of Souls came from how he gathered up the souls of those he could save in spirit stones. He apparently also discovers the spirit stones can be used to power up things like the artifact.

Post-Fall Eldar

Asur has been retconned from being a planet (presumably in realspace) to being located in a pocket realm in the Webway (unclear if it is still a planet within the realm). Asurmen and Jain Zar built it, mainly by using automated construction and agricultural systems.

The Phoenix Lords had tried to teach their ways to the Dark Eldar but they were rejected so the Phoenix Lords keep to the Craftworlders.

*Continuity snarl* (?Retcon of previous retcon of Eldrad's age and past?) Eldrad's name is given as Eldrad Nuirasha and he is called a "young seer" and was not yet born at the time of the Fall. Eldrad was not yet Ulthran (Foremost of Ulthwe) as of at least approximately late M37. This is concluded from the fact that the post-Fall story thread of the novel takes place an indeterminate time after Vect had destroyed Shaa-dom which was 984.M37 (as Vect mentions this event). Eldrad's title at this time was Ulthai-das (Eye of Fates Unseen). The leader of the Farseer council was Daensyrith, a former oracle of Morai Heg who remembered the Fall. Eldrad and Daensyrith clash over Eldrad's perceived thirst for power. Daensyrith claims her knowledge of the ways of Morai Heg was what led there to being seers at all. Eldrad in turn claims he has invented/disocovered more seer runes than any other and that he brought precision to the craft of the seers, compared to older oracular ways which he called superstition and blind flailing.

Eldrad walked the Path of the Seer, but then took a break and took up the Path of the Musician, before returning to the Path of the Seer and becoming trapped and therefore a Farseer.

At the time of the post-Fall story thread, Jain Zar admits to herself Vect was one of only a few hundred living Eldar that could still remember a time before the Fall. This seems to again restore Vect's background as predating the Fall, rather than that he was just lying about his age. However this creates a new issue of continuity regarding Eldar lifespan, as Jain Zar says a generation has passed for the Craftworlders and Exodites. 2nd edition Eldar Codex stated Eldar live for over a thousand years before dying from old age. Given that the post-Fall story thread is occurring after 984.M37, far more than just 1 generation should have passed.

Eldar may develop some fine lines and wrinkles as they enter old age, but they do not seem to become decrepit the way humans do.

The Avatar of Khaine has consciousness and is not just an automaton. Jain Zar engages it in a heated debate/argument.

Jain Zar senses Eldrad's fate will lead all the way to the Rhana Dandra.

Ulthwe and another craftworld, Anuiven, were at risk of a proxy war, trying to sway fate to favor their own craftworld even if it meant the destruction of the other. One pivotal event involved two Ork warlords fighting each other. Jain Zar favored killing warlord A (on top of a squiggoth) which would have benefited Anuiven. Eldrad favored killing warlord B (in a Gargant) that would have helped Ulthwe. Eldrad got to his target first. However ultimately both Ork warlords are killed, so that neither craftworld ends up being destroyed.

Jain Zar (and likely all Phoenix Lords) can regenerate their armor and weaponry. We know Karandras in the Craftworld Eldar Path novels regenerated a hole in his armor. Jain Zar had been ripped to shreds with only a few scraps of armor and her mask left in the prequel short story at the end of the Jain Zar novel. An unsuspecting Wych picks up the mask not knowing what it is, and it consumes her body and soul, converting everything to psychic energy which forms into Jain Zar's body shape. The armor scraps move by themselves to encase this body shape and regenerate, and Jain Zar also seems to recover her weapons from seemingly nothing. So we know now that joining a Phoenix Lord can be involuntary, and they can use any Eldar soul, not just Craftworlders. This ability would also explain how Jain Zar could have come back after her seeming total destruction at the end of the Night Lords novels.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/04 14:55:46


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

The Eldrad thing is rather interesting, considering in 005.M31 Eldrad was the lead farseer of Ulthwe, and calling himself Eldrad Ulthran.

As per the novel Fulgrim, when Eldrad and the Primarch Fulgrim met to discuss the impending Heresy.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 djones520 wrote:
The Eldrad thing is rather interesting, considering in 005.M31 Eldrad was the lead farseer of Ulthwe, and calling himself Eldrad Ulthran.

As per the novel Fulgrim, when Eldrad and the Primarch Fulgrim met to discuss the impending Heresy.


The thing is there has been a big continuity snarl due to writers at GW/BL having apparently different ideas about Eldrad and Eldar lifespans:

Originally Eldrad was just an old Farseer, exact age undetermined as of the end of M41, and with the average Eldar lifespan stated to be about 1000 years from the 2nd edition Codex. Strictly speaking it says Eldar live for over a thousand years before succumbing to old age but that gives at least a ballpark figure of average Eldar lifespan. There was also a very short blurb before a WD battle report of the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe being a bit confused as to time and calling Eldrad "young seer" when he had already grown old. This was when Eldrad was going to attack humans to prevent them from awakening Necrons (I think that is Maedrax, which therefore dates this to 783.M41). The main point being however that the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe knew Eldrad when he was a young seer.

Then in the 3rd edition Eldar Codex, we had a captured Eldar Ranger saying all sorts of stuff to his human interrogator, including claiming Eldrad had warned the Emperor about the Heresy. The most obvious and sensible conclusion given the massive discrepancy with known Eldar lifespan would have been to conclude the Ranger was lying through his teeth just to anger the human by insulting their god. However then somebody at GW took that literally and did make Eldrad 10,000 years old by making him meet Fulgrim.

Finally now Gav Thorpe seems to be retconning that retcon by making Eldrad not the lead Farseer of Ulthwe til some time after M37 and younger than the Fall. Gav also portrays Eldrad as an arrogant prodigy that is power-hungry though he justifies his thirst for power as due to him being better than everyone else and therefore most suited to guide Ulthwe into the future.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 07:34:40


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





there have been several eldar named Eldrad. there continuality snarl solved

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Dark Eldar are able to vastly extend their lives so long as they are exposed to sufficient suffering to top off their soul. The older they get, the more suffering they need to retain their youthful look. Considering how old Vect is, and the look he maintains, he must have millions of slaves crushed and distilled into a single glass of red wine each meal to keep himself going. In Path of the Archon Vect's throneroom was decorated by disloyal Archon's hanging from meat hooks while Llhamaen torturesses played with them casually, and that's just what he does to set the scene of the room!

Not sure how that relates to Craftworld Eldar. But without a doubt the Oldest living Eldar are to be found within the Dark City, being the likes of Vect, Urien and the Haemonculi.

 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Unless you're willing to count the Phoenix Lords as Eldar, at least. Asurmen is assuredly far older than Vect.
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Of course they don't count, they've all died at least several dozen times each! A modern day 40k Phoenix Lord is more akin to a Walking Infinity Circuit or Wraith Construct than a living Eldar.

 
   
Made in je
Been Around the Block




I haven't read the book yet so I may have missed something but in "Fulgrim" Eldrad was not the high farseer. I'll try to find the quote but there is a seer in one of the heresy books(I think it involved Vulcan) that states that one of her colleagues had overstepped them position by interfering. Eldrad was definitely active during the Heresy and if "The Throne World" is to be believed then he will at some time be gifted with a token form Vulcan.
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Brother-Redemptor wrote:
I haven't read the book yet so I may have missed something but in "Fulgrim" Eldrad was not the high farseer. I'll try to find the quote but there is a seer in one of the heresy books(I think it involved Vulcan) that states that one of her colleagues had overstepped them position by interfering. Eldrad was definitely active during the Heresy and if "The Throne World" is to be believed then he will at some time be gifted with a token form Vulcan.


I think I know what your talking about, but if we're talking about the same thing, it was all exodite seers. The ones Vulkan encountered were alluding to other exodites trying to warn Ferrus of his death at Fulgrims hands. This all happened before Eldrad and Fulgrim met I believe, though not very long before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 13:46:13


Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper




In the Beast Arises it's also said that Eldrad was by then a Seer of significant standing, at the very least one who was able to get a Harlequin Troupe to invade the Imperial Palace.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Iracundus wrote:
[There was also a very short blurb before a WD battle report of the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe being a bit confused as to time and calling Eldrad "young seer" when he had already grown old. This was when Eldrad was going to attack humans to prevent them from awakening Necrons (I think that is Maedrax, which therefore dates this to 783.M41). The main point being however that the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe knew Eldrad when he was a young seer.

The planet was 'Chi'athelai, which humans have named Kabaal' ('Warth of Ulthwe' in White Dwarf 203 (UK), pg.58).
   
Made in je
Been Around the Block




Ha found it; Vulkan Lives –chapter 11 (Mortal pillars)

Takes place whilst Vulkan is captured by Curze


‘Who are you?’ I demand, angry at being manipulated by this psychic passenger.
‘It doesn’t matter. None of this is real, but what is very real is what I am about to impart to you. The very fact you have not chosen to attack me suggests I chose wisely.’
‘You make it sound like you’ve tried this before,’ I said.
‘Not I, one of my kindred. Despite my warning not to, he proceeded anyway.’ There was resignation in the eldar’s voice, changing its melodic tone into something approaching regret. ‘It went poorly, I’m afraid, and so we are here. You and I.’
‘Are you a spirit, a wraith followed me from Kharaatan?’ I sensed the ghost of a smile in my strange companion’s reply.
‘Something like that, but not from Kharaatan. Ulthwé.

So from what I can gather Eldrad was born after the fall.

The fall happened sometime before the Great crusade which lasted almost 200 years and more than likely the Unification wars; seeing as the Emperor only stepped out of the shadows after the fall.

So if the Unification wars took roughly 100 to 200 years to complete you’re looking at Eldrad being at around the youthful age of 300 too 400 years of age by the time of the Heresy.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 17:09:58


 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Thank the Lord they've gone back to Eldrad being a sensible age for an Eldar. Honestly it was getting to the point where it felt like every man and his dog has been alive for 10,000 years.

Where it all stemmed from was a throwaway line in a piece of fluff in one of the old eldar codices, where a captured Ranger is trying to intimidate his captors by saying that Eldrad warned 'that weakling seer you call Emperor' about the Heresy. Pretty damn certain it was meant to be viewed skeptically, seeing as it's shortly following a whole load of fluff telling you that what the Eldar say isn't to be trusted, but i expect some fluff writers took it literally and wrote Eldrad into the Heresy books because they wanted to name-drop an Eldar character without reading too much Eldar fluff.

That never jived with the Staff of Ulthamar fluff that it was handed down from head-seer to head-seer, but seeing as Farseers are a post-fall invention, there couldn't have been only one head seer of Ulthwe since the Fall.

The Phoenix Lords being rejected by the Dark Eldar is an interesting point, seeing as the Path books suggest it was the other way around (Arhra wanted to extend their teachings to the DEldar, but the other Phoenix Lords didn't want to, beginning the conflict between them).

Personally i'm happy with both accounts co-existing as two versions of the same story, twisted by perspective to view their side as the side in the right. Certainly feels like a realistic thing to happen.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lord Damocles wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
[There was also a very short blurb before a WD battle report of the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe being a bit confused as to time and calling Eldrad "young seer" when he had already grown old. This was when Eldrad was going to attack humans to prevent them from awakening Necrons (I think that is Maedrax, which therefore dates this to 783.M41). The main point being however that the Infinity Circuit of Ulthwe knew Eldrad when he was a young seer.

The planet was 'Chi'athelai, which humans have named Kabaal' ('Warth of Ulthwe' in White Dwarf 203 (UK), pg.58).


Ah thank you for that correction. Didn't have my old WD handy to check.

The main point still remains though in that the Infinity Circuits had known Eldrad when he was a young seer else they wouldn't have called him that. Since they were also warning him about relatively "recent" things like Ghaz (or was it Haranshemash?) while calling him young seer, then that his age must be significantly less than Ulthwe itself.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Thank the Lord they've gone back to Eldrad being a sensible age for an Eldar. Honestly it was getting to the point where it felt like every man and his dog has been alive for 10,000 years.

Where it all stemmed from was a throwaway line in a piece of fluff in one of the old eldar codices, where a captured Ranger is trying to intimidate his captors by saying that Eldrad warned 'that weakling seer you call Emperor' about the Heresy. Pretty damn certain it was meant to be viewed skeptically, seeing as it's shortly following a whole load of fluff telling you that what the Eldar say isn't to be trusted, but i expect some fluff writers took it literally and wrote Eldrad into the Heresy books because they wanted to name-drop an Eldar character without reading too much Eldar fluff.

That never jived with the Staff of Ulthamar fluff that it was handed down from head-seer to head-seer, but seeing as Farseers are a post-fall invention, there couldn't have been only one head seer of Ulthwe since the Fall.

The Phoenix Lords being rejected by the Dark Eldar is an interesting point, seeing as the Path books suggest it was the other way around (Arhra wanted to extend their teachings to the DEldar, but the other Phoenix Lords didn't want to, beginning the conflict between them).

Personally i'm happy with both accounts co-existing as two versions of the same story, twisted by perspective to view their side as the side in the right. Certainly feels like a realistic thing to happen.


Hopefully we'll find out more in the Karandras novel if/when we get there, though obviously Karandras might be biased. The whole disagreement about teaching the Dark Eldar need not be just a single incident or attempt. The Phoenix Lords could have tried, been rebuffed, then given up, with Arhra perhaps arguing that they shouldn't or that they should adapt their teachings to suit the Dark Eldar. Jain Zar in the novel certainly was contemptuous of the Incubi as being "bastardised descendants of the Asurya".

I also personally see the falling out between Arhra and the rest over the evolving Path system. Over time it seems the Path system has become more rigid and ritualized, whereas in the beginning it seems it was more fluid. Arhra may have disagreed with the increasing rigidity of the Paths, whereas the other Phoenix Lords perhaps disagreed with Arhra's seemingly no holds barred approach.

In all, I am glad there was a bit more of the philosophical musing about the Path system compared to the Asurmen novel, and how the post-Fall story thread seemed to fill less of a filler role.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 22:54:29


 
   
 
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