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Keywords seem to have a major issue, in that you can choose to use the same custom keyword across multiple army lists.

For clarity, let me say I have an army called "The WAAC warband". I use "The WAAC warband" in place of both <chapter> and <legion> keywords, effectively allowing me to mix both chaos and loyalist marines freely. In fact.... nothing really stops me from using "The WAAC warband" in place of any keyword that doesn't have a strict list, so mix in dark eldar and tau and maybe some orcs, etc. Not only can I mix units from any armies while remaining battleforged, the units will also benefiting from synergies, since a number of abilities only care about the custom keyword.

In fact, I don't see anything preventing me from saying my <legion> keyword is ultramarines or imperium, or my <chapter> is the black legion.

Obviously this wasn't intended and I'm certainly not arguing it should be allowed. I'm just trying to see if there is a rule preventing it I didn't notice, or if this is going to need an early faq.

Edit: Because some people keep bringing it up, no the <chapter> or <legion> place holder does not matter. The keyword replaces it, see example below.

SilverAlien wrote:
From the indexes

if you were to include a chaos lord in your army, and you decided he was from the word bearers legion, his <legion> faction keyword is changed to Word Bearers and his Lord of Chaos ability would then read "You can re-roll hit rolls of one made for friendly Word Bearers units within 6" of this model"

if you were to include a captain in your army, and you decided he was from the blood ravens chapter, his <chapter> faction keyword is changed to Blood Ravens and his Rites of Battle ability would then read "You can re-roll hit rolls of one made for friendly Blood Ravens units within 6" of this model"

So your faction keyword isn't "word bearers legion" or "blood ravens chapter" it is explicitly called out as "Word bearers" and "Blood Ravens". It affects "Word Bearers" and "Blood Ravens", even if I decided some of my units are from the word bearers chapter... they still get the "Word Bearers" faction keyword.

Note also unique characters that have a preassigned faction merely have keywords like "ultramaine" not "ultramarine chapter" and they don't have a <chapter> tag to replace.

Interesting predicament; I don't expect anyone to really abuse this though

SilverAlien wrote:
Keywords seem to have a major issue, in that you can choose to use the same custom keyword across multiple army lists.

For clarity, let me say I have an army called "The WAAC warband". I use "The WAAC warband" in place of both <chapter> and <legion> keywords, effectively allowing me to mix both chaos and loyalist marines freely. In fact.... nothing really stops me from using "The WAAC warband" in place of any keyword that doesn't have a strict list, so mix in dark eldar and tau and maybe some orcs, etc. Not only can I mix units from any armies while remaining battleforged, the units will also benefiting from synergies, since a number of abilities only care about the custom keyword.

In fact, I don't see anything preventing me from saying my <legion> keyword is ultramarines or imperium, or my <chapter> is the black legion.

Obviously this wasn't intended and I'm certainly not arguing it should be allowed. I'm just trying to see if there is a rule preventing it I didn't notice, or if this is going to need an early faq.

Pretty sure that's not how that works, since they go out of their way to say <Regiment> <Chapter> <Legion> and so on.

For example, I can have the "WAAC" Regiment and the "WAAC" Chapter, but that doesn't change the fact that the IG unit is still a <Regiment> and the Space Marine unit is still a <Chapter>.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Keywords seem to have a major issue, in that you can choose to use the same custom keyword across multiple army lists.

For clarity, let me say I have an army called "The WAAC warband". I use "The WAAC warband" in place of both <chapter> and <legion> keywords, effectively allowing me to mix both chaos and loyalist marines freely. In fact.... nothing really stops me from using "The WAAC warband" in place of any keyword that doesn't have a strict list, so mix in dark eldar and tau and maybe some orcs, etc. Not only can I mix units from any armies while remaining battleforged, the units will also benefiting from synergies, since a number of abilities only care about the custom keyword.

In fact, I don't see anything preventing me from saying my <legion> keyword is ultramarines or imperium, or my <chapter> is the black legion.

Obviously this wasn't intended and I'm certainly not arguing it should be allowed. I'm just trying to see if there is a rule preventing it I didn't notice, or if this is going to need an early faq.

Pretty sure that's not how that works, since they go out of their way to say <Regiment> <Chapter> <Legion> and so on.

For example, I can have the "WAAC" Regiment and the "WAAC" Chapter, but that doesn't change the fact that the IG unit is still a <Regiment> and the Space Marine unit is still a <Chapter>.

Agreed

Pretty sure the "keyword of your own choosing" means "keyword of your own choosing from the available options." atleast for CSM. It seems it's worded differently for different armies?

For example, the Chaos Daemons Army List part seems to lack the keywords part completely, while Chaos Space Marines Army list has it.

On the other hand, the Craftworld version states you can make up a Craftworld of your own making. Chaos Space Marines equivalent doesn't include this; nowhere is it stated that you can make up a custom <Legion> of your own making.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Keywords seem to have a major issue, in that you can choose to use the same custom keyword across multiple army lists.

For clarity, let me say I have an army called "The WAAC warband". I use "The WAAC warband" in place of both <chapter> and <legion> keywords, effectively allowing me to mix both chaos and loyalist marines freely. In fact.... nothing really stops me from using "The WAAC warband" in place of any keyword that doesn't have a strict list, so mix in dark eldar and tau and maybe some orcs, etc. Not only can I mix units from any armies while remaining battleforged, the units will also benefiting from synergies, since a number of abilities only care about the custom keyword.

In fact, I don't see anything preventing me from saying my <legion> keyword is ultramarines or imperium, or my <chapter> is the black legion.

Obviously this wasn't intended and I'm certainly not arguing it should be allowed. I'm just trying to see if there is a rule preventing it I didn't notice, or if this is going to need an early faq.

Pretty sure that's not how that works, since they go out of their way to say <Regiment> <Chapter> <Legion> and so on.

For example, I can have the "WAAC" Regiment and the "WAAC" Chapter, but that doesn't change the fact that the IG unit is still a <Regiment> and the Space Marine unit is still a <Chapter>.

From the indexes

if you were to include a chaos lord in your army, and you decided he was from the word bearers legion, his <legion> faction keyword is changed to Word Bearers and his Lord of Chaos ability would then read "You can re-roll hit rolls of one made for friendly Word Bearers units within 6" of this model"

if you were to include a captain in your army, and you decided he was from the blood ravens chapter, his <chapter> faction keyword is changed to Blood Ravens and his Rites of Battle ability would then read "You can re-roll hit rolls of one made for friendly Blood Ravens units within 6" of this model"

So your faction keyword isn't "word bearers legion" or "blood ravens chapter" it is explicitly called out as "Word bearers" and "Blood Ravens". It affects "Word Bearers" and "Blood Ravens", even if I decided some of my units are from the word bearers chapter... they still get the "Word Bearers" faction.

The way the rules are written, <legion>, <chapter>, and <regiment> are all replaced totally, not added on to.

 Runic wrote:
Pretty sure the "keyword of your own choosing" means "keyword of your own choosing from the available options." atleast for CSM. It seems it's worded differently for different armies?

For example, the Chaos Daemons Army List part seems to lack the keywords part completely, while Chaos Space Marines Army list has it.

On the other hand, the Craftworld version states you can make up a Craftworld of your own making. Chaos Space Marines equivalent doesn't include this; nowhere is it stated that you can make up a custom <Legion> of your own making.

They specifically mention that the <legion> keyword can refer to renegade chapters as well actually, and that legion is used for simplicity's sake.

SilverAlien wrote:


They specifically mention that the <legion> keyword can refer to renegade chapters as well actually, and that legion is used for simplicity's sake.

They do. The part where you're allowed to devise one of your own making, however, does not exist on the page.

It does on the Craftworld version, however, for example.

If someone tries to pull this stunt and ally marines and necrons or some other tomfoolery I will find the strength to not slap them and tell them to find someone else to play.

Seriously. It's crap like this going in that makes it so we can't have nice things.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Runic wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


They specifically mention that the <legion> keyword can refer to renegade chapters as well actually, and that legion is used for simplicity's sake.

They do. The part where you're allowed to devise one of your own making, however, does not exist on the page.

It does on the Craftworld version, however, for example.

.... it's literally called a keyword of your own choosing with only a few limits mentioned (can't be Fallen, the four cult legions are mentioned as having specific lists later on, which do limit what they can take). They never imply you can only chose your keyword from a certain list. Nor do they even provide a list of existing legions in full (Iron warriors, Alpha legion, and Night Lords aren't even mentioned so far as I saw). What renegade chapters could i chose from? Which count as canon and which don't?

I mean... props for trying but even if this did work it wouldn't fix the issue. I went ahead and looked to see which mentioned the "make your own up" line, it includes tau, craftworld eldar, tyrannids, imperial guard, sisters of battle, mechanicus, and imperial knights. And you can still nominate tyranids as being from "hive fleet ultramarine", giving them the ultramarine keyword, so you basically can mix the above with one other army of choice.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
If someone tries to pull this stunt and ally marines and necrons or some other tomfoolery I will find the strength to not slap them and tell them to find someone else to play.

Seriously. It's crap like this going in that makes it so we can't have nice things

To be fair, I ended up thinking about ways this could be used non abusively. Give some IG the ultramarines keyword, to illustrate they are the pdf ultramar and used to fighting alongside marines. Or giving alpha legion to both koyal and traitor marines, to represent those double agents and hypno indoctrinated sleepers.

This shouldn't be too hard to correct at least, Just clean up the wording a little.

It's simple. If someone tries to pull this, hit them.

Just pick up your base rule book and really clock the idiot in the head.

honestly, if someone even tried this in a game against me I'd just tell them "ok you win" and walk away. it's a clear sign right from the get go they're the worst type of rules lawyer and not worth playing against. so by all means please do this, PLEASE make it clear and apparent right at game start what kind of player you are

Okay, then does anyone have a suggestion for fixing the wording of the rule to prevent this?

It occurs to me that forcing them to have at least one fixed keyword in common to be used in the same army would at least mitigate the issue. Would basically reduce it to imperium/eldar issues (and eldar have ynnari to do this with anyway).

Or say units from separate army lists cannot use the same custom keyword, but this leaves open hive fleet ultramarine. Maybe add "custom keywords cannot be existing keywords from s different army list", which I think should fix it without causing issues.

Sounds legal in open play, maybe even narrative

If they tried to argue that they could ally in that, I would point to the line where it says "friendly units with the same keyword"

Also that comment about bashing them made me laugh.

SilverAlien wrote:
Okay, then does anyone have a suggestion for fixing the wording of the rule to prevent this?

It occurs to me that forcing them to have at least one fixed keyword in common to be used in the same army would at least mitigate the issue. Would basically reduce it to imperium/eldar issues (and eldar have ynnari to do this with anyway).

Or say units from separate army lists cannot use the same custom keyword, but this leaves open hive fleet ultramarine. Maybe add "custom keywords cannot be existing keywords from s different army list", which I think should fix it without causing issues.

Seems like it could be fixed by not overwriting the keyword itself, So craftworld (name), Chapter (name) and such. Hive Fleet Ultramarine and chapter Ultramarine are two separate things, would this be enough with the above rules ?

I am pretty sure this same thing came up when AoS was launched?

The store manager where i play would probably kick someone out for something like that. He has a strict dont be an donkey-cave rule.

7437 wrote:
The store manager where i play would probably kick someone out for something like that. He has a strict dont be an donkey-cave rule.

sounds like a good store

And Taudar are back on the table with the shared faction keyword <CHEESE>.

 Runic wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


They specifically mention that the <legion> keyword can refer to renegade chapters as well actually, and that legion is used for simplicity's sake.

They do. The part where you're allowed to devise one of your own making, however, does not exist on the page.

It does on the Craftworld version, however, for example.

Then we come into issue there is no list of valid choices so none are valid and all are simply <chapter> etc.

What if my Legion is called Fly?
Can they shoot after falling back?

 Rippy wrote:
If they tried to argue that they could ally in that, I would point to the line where it says "friendly units with the same keyword"

Also that comment about bashing them made me laugh.

That friendly simply removes opponents models being affected.

tneva82 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
If they tried to argue that they could ally in that, I would point to the line where it says "friendly units with the same keyword"

Also that comment about bashing them made me laugh.

That friendly simply removes opponents models being affected.

Okay then, I would change my keyword to be the same as theirs, then they can't hurt me.

Edit: I know this wouldn't make us "friendly", but if someone wants to be so stupid to exploit this, I can be childish back.

.... it's literally called a keyword of your own choosing

You are missing the point.

Read the Eldar and CSM pages again, and you'll see they are presented differently. One is spesifically told to make up a Craftworld of their own making if they so wish. There is no such thing for Legion. Both have the "keyword of your own choosing" -bit. This could easily mean "keyword of your own choosing [from the available options presented]." Chaos Space Marines aren't encouraged to create their own Legions in their page, like Eldar are encouraged to create their own Craftworld on their respective page. Period. I'm not talking about how it's supposed to be, or how it's supposed to work. I'm merely stating they are written differently for different factions, that is all. Arguing against that is pointless because it is obviously so and anyone can check it from the leaked images.

Here is a fix we're using in our tournament rules package:

"Custom keywords are always counted as having the original default keyword as a suffix. For example, if a player decides their Space Marines are from the <Chapter> Exploitators, the keyword is treated as <Exploitators Chapter>."

So a Tyranid Hivefleet Exploitators would automatically be called Exploitators Hivefleet, preventing abuse.

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly, if someone even tried this in a game against me I'd just tell them "ok you win" and walk away. it's a clear sign right from the get go they're the worst type of rules lawyer and not worth playing against. so by all means please do this, PLEASE make it clear and apparent right at game start what kind of player you are

Absolutely this. It's more than abundantly clear exactly how this is intended to work, so it really doesn't need to be "fixed". The only people that would affect are total melts, who will no doubt find some other ridiculous way to try and get one up on people by deliberately misinterpreting things.

SilverAlien wrote:
Okay, then does anyone have a suggestion for fixing the wording of the rule to prevent this?

Stop forcing the issue? You're literally making a fool out of yourself.

I'm all for clarifying where there is even the smallest chance that it could be another way... but this is clearly just insane.

So where is the create custom IG Regiment?

I think they meant that it would be the "insert keyword" "insert suffix" and thats how it would work.
How do you guys know this anyway? You can't get the rulebooks yet can you?