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2017/06/09 06:18:02
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/06/09 07:17:20
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
See my sig. it would be the longest thread on Dakka.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/06/09 07:50:23
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
yeah, that to my mind is the big question, will the primaris codex release be codex: space Marines. or Codex: Primaris Marines. the optimist in me thinks Space Marines given that GW has taken pains to make Primaris Marines intergrate reasonably well with space marine chapters.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/09 09:53:45
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
Yeah im done responding to you. 9 turns to get 24 inches? Your not going to advance at all? Right.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
TS and DG do but go look at the list of allowed units. TS have like 16 units to choose from most of which are repeats, Sorcerer on Disk, Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcerer on Disk. Scars don't need Troops bring Outrider Detachments 1 HQ 3 FA required gets you 1 Extra CP 2 of those and your almost the same CP as a Battalion Detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
They have access to an 80 point model which ups their average advance move to 5" it would be much better to bring him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 10:04:12
2017/06/09 12:17:51
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dovis wrote: How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"
I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.
Dovis wrote: You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:
Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.
=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
Yeah im done responding to you. 9 turns to get 24 inches? Your not going to advance at all? Right.
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
TS and DG do but go look at the list of allowed units. TS have like 16 units to choose from most of which are repeats, Sorcerer on Disk, Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcerer on Disk. Scars don't need Troops bring Outrider Detachments 1 HQ 3 FA required gets you 1 Extra CP 2 of those and your almost the same CP as a Battalion Detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Probably why you should throw them in a fething Rhino instead of footslogging, which is literally the dumbest idea ever for a 5" movement infantry unit.
They have access to an 80 point model which ups their average advance move to 5" it would be much better to bring him.
You really are terribad at math, 9 turns? Are you high, there's 3 Mortar crews, each doing 4 shots per turn 3 X 4 = 12, 36/12=3
That's 3 turns you nincompoop, even if advancing at max 6", they could only cover 22 at MAX per 2 turns, so it's 3 turns guaranteed free firing for the mortars if they start at max range, if we're talking about map with lots of obstacles and cover, like you said, then the walk might even take longer
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 12:44:50
2017/06/09 12:20:39
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
2017/06/09 14:20:44
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
Eh, not getting your thing as a troops choice is basically just two CP you lose, from taking one of the other formations over a brigade. That's not really all that bad atm. Might be later, but that'll be once you get better stratagems, which means have gotten more official support.
2017/06/09 15:55:12
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
Have you seen the N&R thread? While everyone else was like "ooooh, shiny" for the leaks, Chaos players started leaking themselves.
EDIT: Except for Khorne players, who were like "MY LORD OF SKULLS CAN BE USED NOW!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 15:55:38
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/06/09 15:57:55
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)
So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG
How did you get 3 mortars, or did you change the parameters again to suit your needs? not to mention you wouldnget get 3 turns of shooting you would get two, and you didnt factor in cover which gives the Plague Marines a 2+ save which would cut those numbers in half.
5817/06/09 16:08:43
Subject: Re:Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Loyalist Marine Players: Lolnope, you just want everything we have and more. Like these Bike troops. Or these shiny Grav weapons.
*10 years later*
Chaos Players: Could it be we have Legion tactics now?
*6 months later*
Loyalist Marine Players: I don't get why you're complaining, everyone got the nerfbat. This Bike Scar army I had for years is now somewhat overcosted in points.
2017/06/09 16:13:25
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
bhollenb wrote: Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.
However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.
And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.
Except that...all the rules have been leaked.
Including Cities of Death and Stronghold Assault. In full form.
Not disagreeing with you just pointing out.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2017/06/09 16:19:24
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Dont Legions still get their cult units as troops? Freaking White Scars dont get biker troops anymore. Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Heck, even White Scars would like a word about model support compared to Chaos.
We will see if the Primaris release is Codex: Adeptus Astartes or Codex: Primaris Astartes. Or Adeptus Primaris. Or whatever.
No, the longest thread would be loyalist Marine players whining about Chaos whiners whining, often pre-emptively before any Chaos players complained.
And then both of them jumping against the SoB players that began to whine about plastic sisters of battle
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/06/09 16:27:10
Subject: Re:Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Loyalist Marine Players: Lolnope, you just want everything we have and more. Like these Bike troops. Or these shiny Grav weapons.
*10 years later*
Chaos Players: Could it be we have Legion tactics now?
*6 months later*
Loyalist Marine Players: I don't get why you're complaining, everyone got the nerfbat. This Bike Scar army I had for years is now somewhat overcosted in points.
Chaos got more rules in the indexes then Loyalists got to tell the different type of Codex Marines apart?
I don't even play Bike Scars, but they have just as valid complaints about getting things changed around as Chaos players do, except Chaos players got to keep cult troops.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/06/09 16:43:04
Subject: Re:Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Okay, let's take five Plague Marines with two Blight Launchers (105+28=133 points), versus three Infantry Squads with one mortar each (120+15=135).
Spoiler:
Guardsmen start near the rear of their deployment zone (6" in), in cover, to make best use of their mortar. Plague Marines start at the front of their deployment zone, out of cover, but will be in cover by turn two. So they're 30" away, and the Plagues go first.
Turn 1-Plagues advance 8.5", leaving them 21.5" away. Guardsmen fire their mortars, getting 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 1.75 wounds, .58 after saves and .39 dead after their FNP. Then, the rest fire their lasguns, 21 shots, 10.5 hits, 3.5 wound, 1.17 after saves, and .78 after their FNP. A little over one Plague Marine is already dead, but morale won't hurt them. They're leadership 8. (Also, we killed the Sarge in the squad that took damage-we need Lasguns more than Leadership).
Turn 2-Plagues get cover, and are now 16.5" away. They fire 2 bolters shot, 1.33 hits .89 wounds, .44 past saves, and 4 Blight Launcher shots, 2.67 hits, 2.59 wounds, and 2.16 dead after saves (of a mere 6+). That's about two and a half dead guardsmen, but hell, let's round to 3. Now, Guardsmen, Mortars! 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 1.75 wounds, .29 past saves and .19 past FNP. Then, lasguns,18 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, .5 after saves and .33 after FNP. Let's round to two dead Plagues (1.69 dead actually), leaving the two Blight Launchers and the Sarge. Also, note that we assumed one guardsmen ran away due to morale (on average, none will) leaving four guardsmen down as compared to two Plagues.
Turn 3-Plagues move up to 11.5", still in cover. They're now in rapid fire range, but won't charge-too risky. 2 bolt shots, which is .44 wounds, and 4 Blight Launchers, which is 2.16 wounds. Three more dead guardsmen, leaving one squad on a normal dude and Mortar, but we'll assume they pass morale this time. 10.5 mortar shots, which is .19 dead Plagues, and 32 Lasgun shots, 16 hits, 5.33 wounds, .89 past saves and .59 past FNP. We'll say no Plagues die this turn, since it's at 2.47.
Turn 4-Plagues move up to 6.5", out of cover now. They will charge this turn. They focus fire on an unwounded squad, planning to finish off the wounded one with a charge. 2 bolts and 4 Blight Launchers, on an unwounded squad, for 2.6 (rounded to 3) dead Guardsmen (including Sarge) on another squad. They then Charge the squad that's on two. Overwatch gives us 3.5 shots from mortar, .58 hits, .19 wounds, .06 past saves and .04 past FNP. Lasgun gives us 2 shots, .33 hits, .11 wounds, .04 past saves and .02 past FNP. Now, that technically brings us above the 2.5 mark, but we'll say the Plagues all survive Overwatch, and wipe out the squad without difficulty. Anyway, the remaining two squads fire, with 7 mortar shots, 3.5 hits, 1.17 wounds, .20 past 2+ save, .13 past FNP, and then 25 Lasgun shots, 12.5 hits, 4.17 wounds, .69 past saves, .46 past FNP. That's now 3.21 dead Plagues, so they only have their Blight Launchers.
Turn 5-Plagues move right next to the wounded squad, fire their Blights, kill 2.16 (leaving them on 5 dead) and charge, wiping the squad. (I could do CC math, but screw it, let's give this to the Plagues.) That leaves one whole Guard squad to fire on them. 3.5 mortar shots, 1.75 hits, .58 wounds, .09 past saves and .06 past FNP. Next, 15 Lasguns, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wound, .42 past saves and .28 past FNP. That takes us to 3.58 dead Plagues, so they're down to one Blight Launcher.
Turn 6-Plague moves to right next to the last squad, fires his Blight Launcher, kills 1 (not Sarge, this time-we want his chainsword) and charges in. Overwatch does .04 from the mortar, and 13 Lasgun shots gives us 2.17 hits, .72 wound, .12 past saves and .08 past FNP, for 3.7 dead Plagues. Our lone Plague Marine swings, hitting .67, wounding .5 (minor rounding for rerolling 1s to wound) and killing .25. Our HWT, Sarge, and six regular dudes swing 11 times, 5.5 hits, 1.83 wounds, .31 past save and .20 past FNP. 3.9 dead plagues. Then, on the Guard turn, they swing again, doing the same .20 wounds for 4.1 dead Plagues, and Plague swings back, for .25 more dead.
Turn 7-Plague Marine swings for .25 more wounds. We'll call that a dead guy. Then, Guardsmen swing, 10 times, 5 hits, 1.67 wound, .28 past saves and .19 past FNP. 4.29 dead Plagues. Then, Guard swing again, .19 wounds, 4.48 dead Plagues. Plague Marine swings, .25, we'll kill ANOTHER guardsmen. (It probably wouldn't-but I'll count it as killing one anyway.)
Turn 8-Technically the game already ended. But whatever. Plague Marine swings, dealing .25 wounds, no dead Guard this time. Then, Guardsmen swing, 9 times, 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, .25 past saves .17 past FNP. 4.65 dead Plagues. And even if he survives, on the Guard's turn, that goes up to 4.82 dead. He ain't surviving.
Over eight turns, if the Plague Marines spend as little as two turns out of cover, they'll die to a man, with Guardsmen having a little over half a squad left.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2017/06/10 05:45:09
Subject: Re:Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Crazyterran wrote: Chaos got more rules in the indexes then Loyalists got to tell the different type of Codex Marines apart?
I don't even play Bike Scars, but they have just as valid complaints about getting things changed around as Chaos players do, except Chaos players got to keep cult troops.
Except the Scar players will have a codex within a year. Some of us Chaos players will be waiting 2 maybe more before anything drops for us.
2017/06/10 07:11:06
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
I thought bikes got a buff, having 2 wounds each now. A bike army painted as White Scars isn't worth taking anymore?
If Death Guard had 4+ Disgustingly Resilient, would that be too much? I guess if they turn out to really not be worth their points, and adding things could make them too powerful, lowering their points cost could be the way to go in the end.
Poxwalkers are good. But as said a few times, Guardsmen are too cheap for their effectiveness. I think Poxwalkers being any cheaper would make them just as insane as guardsmen with the ability to replenish numbers. Guardsmen just need to be made more expensive. 5-6 points, while conscripts should be 4, imo.
Also, hasn't 40k been about using the right tools for the right job? If Plague Marines aren't killing guardsmen at the respective points costs, perhaps they aren't right for taking out hordes? I haven't actually seen much in the game which can combat hordes in 8th ed meta, other than another horde. Normal tactical marines lose to equivalent points of guard. Primaris do too.
2017/06/10 08:10:19
Subject: Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Tiberius501 wrote: I thought bikes got a buff, having 2 wounds each now. A bike army painted as White Scars isn't worth taking anymore?
If Death Guard had 4+ Disgustingly Resilient, would that be too much? I guess if they turn out to really not be worth their points, and adding things could make them too powerful, lowering their points cost could be the way to go in the end.
Poxwalkers are good. But as said a few times, Guardsmen are too cheap for their effectiveness. I think Poxwalkers being any cheaper would make them just as insane as guardsmen with the ability to replenish numbers. Guardsmen just need to be made more expensive. 5-6 points, while conscripts should be 4, imo.
Also, hasn't 40k been about using the right tools for the right job? If Plague Marines aren't killing guardsmen at the respective points costs, perhaps they aren't right for taking out hordes? I haven't actually seen much in the game which can combat hordes in 8th ed meta, other than another horde. Normal tactical marines lose to equivalent points of guard. Primaris do too.
for space Marines I'm thinking their best anti horde utility is PROABLY the whirlwind. which is still one of the cheaper options among space Marine vehicles.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/10 08:14:19
Subject: Re:Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...
Bluebeard wrote: Do you think we will get new Noise Marines models eventually?
Assuming GW doesn't change course and does for emperor's children what they've done for 1k sons and death then, then yes, and noise terminators, and some some of slaanishi human cultist.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
