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 carldooley wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
well yeah Tau are pretty blatent "anime mecha" inspired.

not anymore. they have the visual aesthetic admittedly, but they now play like every other army in the game.

I'm pretty sure the aesthetic is what he's referring to. When Tau were released there was a lot of talk around how they didn't 'fit' in 40k universe and that the faction was a cynical cash grab.

 Vaktathi wrote:
GW's visuals have, for the last several years, trended more and more towards a videogame-y look, increasingly imitating stuff like League of Legends and WoW in terms of art design. Part of this, I'm guessing, is trying to keep "hip" with certain crowds, but part is also due to GW's decision to go all plastic.

Plastic has advantages. It scales much better in terms of marginal cost for production capacity and allows for very lightweight but very large models. Hence why we've seen the profusion of things like Knights, Riptides, Baneblades, etc. The problem with plastic is that it also has limitations on what one can do with it in terms of detail, undercuts, curves, etc. This lends plastic kits to certain visual styles. This has been going on for several years and is why the game increasingly looks the way it does. The coupling of official art to strictly render exactly what the plastic kits look like (while older art was generally inspirational and not directly representative of the kits) further pushes that style.

Because it makes money. They don't want to be alien or else it wouldn't track attention. Video Gamey is the new style of art. But in the most due course because Digital Artists work both in Video Games, Movies, and Board Games.

Hell, some of GW's former staff work at blizzard.

IT makes them money and I think I am fine with that, it is still impressive, sure it is not 'tone' fitting. But again this seems like a rebranding and that's fine. I don't think many serious artists are perturbed by the sudden shift of art focus. It was about time GW started revitalizing its art department and doing something new.

If you want to show off your game more your models (either physical or not) should be the best representation of your game.

ITs why in the games industry we have such high-quality cutscenes, but still the models in games are only dumbed down but still look the same but just with different poly counts. (While the other is prerendered the other not being a big influence as well). They want to best represent characters in both cutscenes and gameplay. It wouldn't make sense narratively for them to look so different and would be distracting to the player's intended experience.

The Designers of GW are clearly noticing that discrepancy so they have taken the reins and have reeled in as much as they could to appeal to their target demographics. ITs a classic design choice and I as an experience designer do not fault them for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
well yeah Tau are pretty blatent "anime mecha" inspired.

not anymore. they have the visual aesthetic admittedly, but they now play like every other army in the game.

I'm pretty sure the aesthetic is what he's referring to. When Tau were released there was a lot of talk around how they didn't 'fit' in 40k universe and that the faction was a cynical cash grab.

People don't like change and thats a fact. People are inherently afraid of anything new. Though there are exceptions to this. IN business we have to be innovative or we will be left behind. Its why each year we practice new ways or organizing people and leading groups of people, of course products are polarizing when they first come out, I remember when they first introduced much of the new technology that is now used daily how afraid people were of some of those objects. Or how there is much resistance to progressive technologies or to any rampant change. People do not like it.

I think people should give it a chance and instead of sticking their head into the ground just exploring it and seeing if it is worth it. If not just get on with your life, stop complaining about something that hasn't even reached store shelves. I've seen probably hundreds of people in the last few days complaining about how 40k is dead, or how Primaris Marines are too animes or whatever gak or vitriol people have thrown at this game. It is very polarizing for no reason, like watching two kids arguing over well, nothing really important. Many of the changes are actually quite positive and quite interesting as someone who found 7th and 6th edition incredibly boring. I am glad they have moved onto something new.

I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

The old pragmatical Tau fluff was so good... but as much as internet hate to admit, people loves their big anime mechas in 40k.

 Galas wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

The old pragmatical Tau fluff was so good... but as much as internet hate to admit, people loves their big anime mechas in 40k.

I'll admit that I love me some big models.

I can accept the big Tau mechs, it was just a little sad to see them change up their stuff so muc.

On the flipside, the player who made the Tau Metal Gear conversion can finally play his conversion thanks to the change.

Spending some time looking at the models today I can say that I feel the Nurgle models are very "busy". Perhaps you could even call them cluttered. Most character models have some sort of major focal point to draw your attention, but honestly it feels like they have too many focal points, your attention isn't being drawn to any one thing like you see with most models and that really brings the models down.

I want to say it's the bright colors honestly. They make all of the details stand out basically all at once. A more muted pallete (perhaps focused more towards a darker brown color with some greens) would scale that back pretty strongly as the details would still be there, but not shown off as strongly as they are now.

I mean, who heard of Nurgle without rust on them? Almost all the metal bits are way too clean and bright, as is the armour.

I wish I had some PS skills to try playing with the color choices because I'm almost positive that a darker tone would go a long way to fixing the lCk of focus that the models have.

That sId, I love those details, I just feel like many of them could be more subdued than they are in the promo shots.

 ForceChoke wrote:

We don't want...

I think what you meant to say was-'you'. You dont want.

As an Ork player, I really miss the more cartoon-y days of 40k. I think a lot of the hate of the new Death Guard stems from the bright color scheme, which is needed to show off the details in the new figures. I think once people start to airbrush and shade wash them green and brown they should look gritty and gross as hell.

 Galas wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

The old pragmatical Tau fluff was so good... but as much as internet hate to admit, people loves their big anime mechas in 40k.

I would've liked it if the giant robots where left to orks, the Imperium and the Eldar so the Tau were given basically flying saucers instead. The cheesy 50's weedy dudes with deathrays and weird flying ships sci-fi hasn't been fully embraced in 40K. Eldar and necrons have elements of it but the tau could've really gone for it. Particularly with their alien coalition!

 Galas wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

The old pragmatical Tau fluff was so good... but as much as internet hate to admit, people loves their big anime mechas in 40k.

Agreed. GW, the butcher of great fluff in order to sell models.

Still don't own any mech bigger than a Broadside (and not even the new Broadsides, I mean the old plastic and metal kits and one XV88-2 from Forge World!) as my protest.

Why they didn't make Tau a flying transport which could carry Crisis Suits or Fire Warriors whilst packing some anti-infantry firepower and seeker missiles, I'll never know. The army fluff called out for it. Instead we got mediocre fighter planes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I always found it funny that Tau was the mecha army as in the fluff the giant robots were everyone else's gig and Tau just used bigger guns.

...but then the bigger mechs came out and squashed that.

The old pragmatical Tau fluff was so good... but as much as internet hate to admit, people loves their big anime mechas in 40k.

I'll admit that I love me some big models.

I can accept the big Tau mechs, it was just a little sad to see them change up their stuff so muc.

On the flipside, the player who made the Tau Metal Gear conversion can finally play his conversion thanks to the change.

As if the Tau mechs are as cool as Metal Gear. The Stormsurge looks ridiculous.
If you are going to retcon something to justify new, expensive models, at least make them look good and consistent with the faction they are intended for *glares at wardex necron vehicles*

Alright, tbf, the Riptide and the FW suits look ok and do seem like the logical outcome of plus sized battle suits.
Metal Gear is still cooler though.

The entitlement on display in this thread is off the charts!

Any long-time 40k fan could have expected a negative reaction to the new models, it happens every single time a new line of anything is released.

But I honestly did not expect it to be taken to the level of "this will encourage new players and *I* don't want new players".

You know why 40k really sucks? It's the freaking grognards that play it, that ruin the game for everyone else. Anecdotally speaking, I just don't see the kind of absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, angry, entitled, misogynist, pathetic, sub-human supernerds that you get at 40k events and stores. Somehow Warhammer became the go-to game for these individuals some time ago, perhaps owing to the game's longevity - I honestly hope that the new edition sticks in their collective craws so much that they finally move on with their lives and find a new community to drag down with their vitriol and negativity.

 Jambles wrote:
Anecdotally speaking, I just don't see the kind of absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, angry, entitled, misogynist, pathetic, sub-human supernerds that you get at 40k events and stores.

Normally, those players are more the kind that spend all his time in his house winning in forums that going to play at stores, but in my decades of gaming I have meet... 4 in person. The worst human beings I have meet personally.

 Jambles wrote:
The entitlement on display in this thread is off the charts!

But of course!
I am sure a wing of GW headquarters I have paid for myself!

Any long-time 40k fan could have expected a negative reaction to the new models, it happens every single time a new line of anything is released.

Because they are models I do not have.
You should know that I only like models I own, all others are sub-standard... until I buy them.

But I honestly did not expect it to be taken to the level of "this will encourage new players and *I* don't want new players".

New players would mean change to my hobby, change is scary.
Plus it is so hard to train new opponents these days.
They are so hung up on these new fangled rules rather than doing what I tell them to...

You know why 40k really sucks? It's the freaking grognards that play it, that ruin the game for everyone else.

This is a bad thing?
This is how you learn to play properly.

Anecdotally speaking, I just don't see the kind of absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, angry, entitled, misogynist, pathetic, sub-human supernerds that you get at 40k events and stores.

I DO tend to think of myself as rather "super" thanks for saying so!

Somehow Warhammer became the go-to game for these individuals some time ago, perhaps owing to the game's longevity

Well considering people like me tend to live for an incredibly long times, this is a natural state of affairs.
I will give you a hint: if there is incredibly loose rules to play with, making it up as you go becomes so much easier!

- I honestly hope that the new edition sticks in their collective craws so much that they finally move on with their lives and find a new community to drag down with their vitriol and negativity.

But you can get such a leg-up on other people before they know all the rules!
A loud authoritative voice carries the day every time for many months at least!

(Thus ends me channeling my own inner aole. I don't let him out much).

In all seriousness, the really jerky people tend to gravitate anywhere they are not challenged on their bad behavior.
Considering much of us gaming folk who are not that way tend to be pretty accepting, can sometimes allow these challenging people to "thrive".
I look at it that we should be inclusive to those who are shy, unsure or insecure, belligerent, bossy, pushy people I tend to get in their face: bullies have always pushed my button.

I hope the newer game methods make the game "light" enough that those with a huge ego do not get the rush they would by "crushing" their opponent in prior versions.

I still like competitive gaming, a friendly game of locking horns with smart people always makes me smile winning or losing, I hope there is enough there for that.

Ah well, I think there can be nasty people pretty much anywhere, just do not play them and they may take the hint (it just may take a while).
I have found I definitely do not see the same types for X-wing games for instance.
I honestly think that more challenging gaming with a fair bit of balance tends to drive away the bullies a bit since they have clearer rules where a strong opinion has less sway.

Hello. This is a friendly reminder that strongly disagreeing with other posters is not an excuse to passively-aggressively post flamebait, thread-derailing generalizations. Thank you!

If that is for me Manchu, I wasn't passively-.aggresively implying that some people in this thread enter in the kind of person I was talking about.

I apologize if someone has been offended.

...we didn't start the flame wars... na-na-na na-na na ...

On topic I'd say that GW's painting style is always a good bit cartoonish in order to appeal to kids. Look at their shiny-clean ork faces, look at their rainbowcolored demons, look at the classic models:




yeah, not cartoonish at all...

But a good dose of grime on the new ones, less bright colours, a bit of rotting, deseased blood here and there and you are good to go. The models themselves look nicely enough. Hell, it's the reason I'm getting a box of the things. That, wayland's 20% discount and the criminally low GBP-Euro conversion right now.

What people need to understand is that when you are painting a model to put in a webpage, you need to make the detail clear. Thats why you normally see crisp and colorfull paint schemes.

It goes against' all reasonable marketing to paint your lovely detailed new Death Guard with muted colours, full of ooze and corrosion. Look at the paint scheme in the Website for the old death guard. It fit the models better, I agree, but for a marketing image they are terrible! You can't appreciate the details in them.

Plus: Bright coloured images always catch our attention much more than dark coloured ones. A shelve in a store full of nice brightfull boxes is gonna attract much more customers.

@Manchu: Not sure if my parody of the "entitled" elicited the comment but I can back off on that.
General disagreeable comments about the community I cannot typically leave alone when there are many positive elements to be found.

Moving along with "Rule #1" I agree that sharp cartoonish lines make for better pictures than a more realistic look to the models.
I find the subject matter is already cartoonish unto-itself that it seems like taking the model too seriously to make it look "realistic".
I save that for my Bolt Action figures.

I would not claim it's as timmy child like as AOS looks vs whfb, but it's getting there. Having been around since RT days the art and overall visual vibe of both fb and 40k were indeed much more serious and darker in the old days. 2nd ed was the red period and I hated it then and hate it now, I would even claim the miniatures turned into piles of static armed raised cartoon sculpts..it was not just the paint jobs.

Around the end of 3rd ed 40k things took a more muted semi realistic darker vibe which was good, although the box art during 2nd and 3rd was terrible. The latest box art for 40k within the last year is a bit of darker and more modern slick mass production look to it all.

7th was not really that gritty but some of the art was decent some of it was outright deviant fanart garbage.

The overall serious grimdark tones to be accurate really started when adrian smith and john blanche ( along with certain others ) were doing their high end art in the late 80s. JB is still good as is AS but both their styles kinda took a semi dive...my guess is time, you will notice blanche ever since 2nd ed has resorted to his typical drawing style but every time it's a quick wash over top of one or two colors, and AS has mostly done full paintings vs some of his truly epic ROC pencil work back in the day.

It's not just GW, it's the majority of game companies and it comics in turn, just look at the high end artist marvel and dc had from the early 80s to early 90s and look at the same old repetitive cheap looking covers ever since. Too many animu fankids have ruined the atmosphere and the companies pleasing them, we no longer have the traditional high end artist around anymore in many cases and just have pc colored rush out vomit.

I very much agree that the cartoon vibe is nothing new. To begin with, the "realism" bar was always very low for GW IPs. There is a separate dial, called "grittiness," which has been turned up now and again, but that has never been mutually exclusive with cartoonishness (e.g., Tau).

Revenant78, I can agree with many points that you have said but I don't think this isn't to be expected or that we are living in some doomsday period. (And... RT was realistic? RT was the most comical and cartoonish period of all of 40k! When people say That I don't know what they understand by cartoony). Actually, for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, to me the most historical-fantasy, realistic and gritty period was 6th-7th edition. The older editions were totally fantasy and cartoony. And much more brighter.

Is the natural curse of life. The people drawing and buying in the 70-80 aren't the ones doing it in 2020.

The "All of the old was better!" is pretty ... old in itself. Personally I don't want to look like a 70 years old lamenting the old good days, at least before reaching that age


This song comes in handy:

I don't understand what anime has to do with anything.
Not all anime is pokemon or Gundam
Watch something like Fist of the North Star, Evangelion, Berserk or Violence Jack expecting colorful, happy fun times and you'll be very, very surprised.
GW was colorful even before the Tau. Just look at RT and second ed, notably Slaanesh.
Blaming everything on Tau or anime is unreasonable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't understand what anime has to do with anything.
Not all anime is pokemon or Gundam
Watch something like Fist of the North Star, Evangelion, Berserk or Violence Jack expecting colorful, happy fun times and you'll be very, very surprised.

Doing ignorant claims is easy. Is like saying "all superheroes comics are commercial crap", and then you have "The Boys" by Garth Ennis or "Arkham Assylum", etc... the kind of people that does those ignorant claims, is the kind of people that don't bother to look for information about something they don't know about.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't understand what anime has to do with anything.
Not all anime is pokemon or Gundam
Watch something like Fist of the North Star, Evangelion, Berserk or Violence Jack expecting colorful, happy fun times and you'll be very, very surprised.

I guess one would ask what is intended by saying "looking very cartoon/fusion anime".
For good pictures, bright block painting with gradients could look like cell shading.
If by esthetic, by tacking on iconic bit of stuff here and there (he is EVIL, this guy is GOOD, see the colours! See the skulls!).

GW was colorful even before the Tau. Just look at RT and second ed, notably Slaanesh.

I would maintain GW was always colourful, if my stacks or WD magazines are to be believed.
We are looking for tiny little models to "pop" on the tabletop from some 3 feet away.

Blaming everything on Tau or anime is unreasonable.

I think anime was just a handy comparison rather than something to be "blamed".
Tau are more of a science fiction poster child race (big stomping robots, big guns, targeting systems, hover technology, stealth tech...).

I was drawn to anime like Trigun and Bubblegum Crisis: they have terribly funny moments, incredibly dark moments and plain old insane moments.
Just like 40k.
I think it is perfectly acceptable to mimic slightly something you admire or enjoy.
A "Hello Kitty" space marine force is not my thing, but I sure can respect the dedication in making it and the look is undeniably nuts / awesome / epic to see.
Some of the most memorable movies and shows I have seen have been cartoons, I think there is little wrong in engaging that look when indulging in a bit of fantasy.

 Galas wrote:
Revenant78, I can agree with many points that you have said but I don't think this isn't to be expected or that we are living in some doomsday period. (And... RT was realistic? RT was the most comical and cartoonish period of all of 40k! When people say That I don't know what they understand by cartoony). Actually, for Warhammer Fantasy Battles, to me the most historical-fantasy, realistic and gritty period was 6th-7th edition. The older editions were totally fantasy and cartoony. And much more brighter.

Is the natural curse of life. The people drawing and buying in the 70-80 aren't the ones doing it in 2020.

The "All of the old was better!" is pretty ... old in itself. Personally I don't want to look like a 70 years old lamenting the old good days, at least before reaching that age


This song comes in handy:

Ok I get what you are saying but let me expand on this a little bit and have been discussing this with friends the last while who feel the same and have noticed a lot of this too.

I agree that RT itself...internally...was cartoonish...to a degree, but it's not fair to claim it all was. First of all GW during the tail end of the 80s had a number of rather unique artists working for them, many of these guys were young and in their prime filled with passion ( as was much of the GW studio ), there was generally two kinds of internal art that GW had as a whole. 1 The more illustrative pencil style and 2 what was essentially an 80s comic art style. Anyone looking at blood bowl second ed would instantly pick this up and a number of WD articles for RT had that same guy I believe, but then you had a few guys like jes goodwin, paul boner ( spelling ? ) wayne england and adrian smith...along with john blanche.

Those guys were mainly doing fine traditional illustrations, anyone looking at their art from those periods will see just how much detail they put into these, much of it is within the ROC book ( lets not forget IM's work for that too ). Those pieces in no kind of way were cartoony...they very much were serous high end art pieces that captured a weird and dark gritty setting for both 40k and fb.

If we look at TSR during the 80s you will mostly find the same, it was elmore and caldwell along with jeff and parkinson...their works remain to this day as high quality traditional art pieces.

During the the early 80s, late 80s and very early 90s.. in comics you had people like ron lim, todd mcfarlane, rob liefeld ( the horror feet I know ) jim lee and marc silvestri, mark tex etc...many of these guys were doing highly unique and very detailed art that really had not been seen during the 60s era.

Now if you look at gw, tsr/wotc and marvel and dc around the year 2000 to now...you will find...outside of these guys doing the odd cover from time to time, fantasy art, comic art, and well most of this subject matter art has never really been the same, it's taken a huge dive and I do in fact blame much of this on the sudden anime otaku downs fest that was all the rage, along with the strong emphasis to go pure digital...and being an artist yea it shows I can look at most digital paintings and say...thats fake cause I can see the smear faux paint and it looks totally fake so does the color and this is what most internal gw and game art is like and frankly...is sub par rushed out amateur poo.

Peoples standards for quality have dropped, and since nobody is telling them look this is a pile of shate...they keep doing it and most of the modern art schools churn out cookie cutter types like this.

Art in itself is totally subjective. It may have taken a nosedive in your eyes but in mine they have improved almost all aspects of their presentation and I have been enjoying the art from the beginning.

 Talizvar wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't understand what anime has to do with anything.
Not all anime is pokemon or Gundam
Watch something like Fist of the North Star, Evangelion, Berserk or Violence Jack expecting colorful, happy fun times and you'll be very, very surprised.

I guess one would ask what is intended by saying "looking very cartoon/fusion anime".
For good pictures, bright block painting with gradients could look like cell shading.
If by esthetic, by tacking on iconic bit of stuff here and there (he is EVIL, this guy is GOOD, see the colours! See the skulls!).

GW was colorful even before the Tau. Just look at RT and second ed, notably Slaanesh.

I would maintain GW was always colourful, if my stacks or WD magazines are to be believed.
We are looking for tiny little models to "pop" on the tabletop from some 3 feet away.

Blaming everything on Tau or anime is unreasonable.

I think anime was just a handy comparison rather than something to be "blamed".
Tau are more of a science fiction poster child race (big stomping robots, big guns, targeting systems, hover technology, stealth tech...).

I was drawn to anime like Trigun and Bubblegum Crisis: they have terribly funny moments, incredibly dark moments and plain old insane moments.
Just like 40k.
I think it is perfectly acceptable to mimic slightly something you admire or enjoy.
A "Hello Kitty" space marine force is not my thing, but I sure can respect the dedication in making it and the look is undeniably nuts / awesome / epic to see.
Some of the most memorable movies and shows I have seen have been cartoons, I think there is little wrong in engaging that look when indulging in a bit of fantasy.

Keep in mind when I say Tau are clearly anime inspired it's not a base on the Tau it's just the facts. Tau are clearly, aesteticly inspired by Japanese "big stompy robot" anime. this isn't a bad thing, (I also play Battletech, which likewise owes some orgins to that) but if you look at some of the Tau Suits the inspiration is obvious.

this IMHO isn't a bad thing, 40k is such a rich and varied universe it can have something for everyone.

Personally I don't think quality has dropped. Is just that with the internet you have access to a much, much, MUCH bigger exposure to all kind of arts, so the bigger sample tends to the mediocre.

Think about it. In the 70-80 even mid 90's, if you know something, it was because it was GOOD. Now, you can open internet and find 3000 different comics from 1900 different artists. Is obvious that with a much bigger spectrum the medium quality drops.

But I agree. To me Jess Godwinn and Karl Kopinski are the BEST artists has ever had drawing for them. (Specially Kopinski. I love the work of that man)


And I think that the fact Tau don't "fit" into 40k is just the reason they are so good. They offer such a big constrat, that makes the grimdark and aesthetic of the rest even more strong. They are a parody of the typical sci-fi Republic of Star Wars or Star Trek, but instead of humans they are weak blue aliens.

The better word would be "warcraftish".

Models were always cartoonish, but before it was a 2000AD type brit punks comic book style.

Now it is more and more USA comic book style, or Blizzard style or sth. It's not paintjobs, awful GW studio schemes make it worse but naked plastic still has it.

There is no menace in Death Guard models from DI, only loads and loads of pointless detail, they're basicaly poster boys for christmas tree syndrome. I'll still buy, cut them to pieces and use DV stuff lying around to make proper Death Guard terminators and marines though.

Another trend is that 40k gets more and more fantasyish. They went for dark sci fi at some point up to 5th but more fantasy in 6th onwards, Helldrakes and all. The effect is much more kiddish minis.

 Jambles wrote:
The entitlement on display in this thread is off the charts!

Any long-time 40k fan could have expected a negative reaction to the new models, it happens every single time a new line of anything is released.

But I honestly did not expect it to be taken to the level of "this will encourage new players and *I* don't want new players".

You know why 40k really sucks? It's the freaking grognards that play it, that ruin the game for everyone else. Anecdotally speaking, I just don't see the kind of absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, angry, entitled, misogynist, pathetic, sub-human supernerds that you get at 40k events and stores. Somehow Warhammer became the go-to game for these individuals some time ago, perhaps owing to the game's longevity - I honestly hope that the new edition sticks in their collective craws so much that they finally move on with their lives and find a new community to drag down with their vitriol and negativity.

Except that art in 7th got atrocious, models get more and more busy and 40k was one of the worst, most broken games around, and probably will stay that way. Also, Age of Sigmar shooting imaginary horses out of close combat.

But but grognards and super nerds.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

Except that art in 7th got my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion, my opinion.

But but grognards and super nerds.

You're proving my point dude