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8th consolidates the rules for vehicles, replacing Tank Shock and Ramming with the ability to charge enemy units and attack on 6s. This has several side effects:

Vehicle vs Assaulters: In 7th, a vehicle that somehow survived melee could either disengage freely without penalty. At worst they could still fire. In 8th, unless you Fly or have special rules, you can't shoot if the enemy is in melee, and you can't shoot if you withdraw. A single Shield Drone poking a Land Raider can stop it from shooting for a turn.

Vehicle vs chaff: Tank Shock is gone. A single Hormagaunt can stop a Land Raider in its tracks, while 4 of them can surround it and lock it in place! Lest you think this is a preposterous scenario, you consider their speed and 6" pile-in and 6" consolidation let them outright surround it (and remember, there was no consolidation vs vehicles in 3rd-7th). Don't forget the defender chooses all casualties so you might not even get where you want to go anyway if you try to shoot or melee the zerglings in your way.

Vehicle vs Vehicle: in 7th, ramming automatically inflicted a hit on both models. In 8th, one vehicle can hit another while the other misses. Sure you could argue that one vehicle didn't get a "hit on a good spot" but isn't that what to-wound/to-penetrate rolls are for?

Abstraction or rule consolidation are one thing (replacing Fleet/Crusader/Fast/etc with a move profile) but this is rather enbarassing.

Having enjoyed the Ironwolves for a year I'm feeling the sting of Tank Shock's removal.

The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

It wasn't a consolidation, it was an abandonment. To fix the dreadnought/MC issue they doubled down on the path that caused issues in the first place. With all the bespoke unit rules that I haven't read through though their could be a fair amount of the rule that allows a unit to disengage and fire, which would make more sense. For the record, bespoke unit rules Are not a simplification.


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Pretty soon they will be selling sealed collectible blisters for rare characters in there attempt to be MTG.

Especially the encircling thing will have a big impact. Driving a rhino full of troopers to the charge range of hormagaunts or other similar units is a very bad idea. It will stay there until someone comes to help, or the owner of the encircling unit wants to withdraw and shoot the tank. A big unit of 30 hormagaunts can in optimum scenario shut down most of the opponent army in single turn

The flying vehicles on the otherside will be very good. You can charge them at the end of your turn to safety (for example in to combat with enemy tank) as they can easily drive away from combat on their turn without too much impact. This will at least take a piece of opponents army from shooting or doing anything else constructive on next turn.

In several hundred games of 40k played and several hundred more watched I have never, ever seen anyone bother to tank shock anything. Ever. And I've only seen 1 ramming. It just didn't happen and complaining about it is frankly ridiculous. Honestly the only embarrassing thing is just how desperate you are to get people to let you summon infinite daemons forever still.

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The tank shock is not the issue, it's the tanks that get stuck to close combat that is, which is super easy as if you get to combat, you'll have at least 6" of extra movement to encircle the vehicle before it gets to do anything.

On the other hand, it's not that bad as it means that the tanks need to be supported by infantry to be able to operate. It jsut might be that on the table top the supporting will be in form of bubblewrap around the tank

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

Vehicles have historically been weak to melee ever since 6th introduced hullpoints and made them easy to-hit regardless of their movement speed: Half the difficulty of killing vehicles in melee in 5th was landing 6s to hit them in the first place!

It's not like vehicles were magically indestructible engines by any stretch of the imagination, but at the least they could push aside chaff!

Incidentally, I've used both Ramming and Tank Shock 7th and know if it didn't exist that I would take full advantage of the fact. I have enough Cultists to make a mess of things and stop you from reaching objectives or even coming in from reserves, be they Outflanking or Ghost Stormed around. Remember this pic? Without Tank Shock you can do the same vs vehicles too.

Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

Everything is within the bounds of reality in 40k. You too can enjoy forging the narrative of how a single Grot managed to stop a Mastodon in its tracks to the confusion of the Legion Centurion in charge.

I'm suddenly very happy that all my vehicles are fliers.

I had actually thought of doing the opposite - using trasports after disembark to charge and pin down enemy units. But certainly, the encircle thing is funny at least.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Everything is within the bounds of reality in 40k. You too can enjoy forging the narrative of how a single Grot managed to stop a Mastodon in its tracks to the confusion of the Legion Centurion in charge.

I'll photoshop at some point heh.

clearly not gandalfs first game of 8th ediiton:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Ah, okay. Though I think if you manage to let something as wide and long as a Baneblade get completely surrounded, you were doing something very wrong.

If you do end up in that situation, though, you can always stage a heroic counter-charge to save the army's pride and joy.

ERJAK wrote:
In several hundred games of 40k played and several hundred more watched I have never, ever seen anyone bother to tank shock anything. Ever. And I've only seen 1 ramming. It just didn't happen and complaining about it is frankly ridiculous. Honestly the only embarrassing thing is just how desperate you are to get people to let you summon infinite daemons forever still.

Shooting was so far ahead most Vehicles did more damage by shooting, even free Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters. It wasn't a strategy you built around, it was one you used when your opponent forgot it could happen.

Space Wolves Ironwolves got tank shock that worked, extra range, free dozer blade and a leadership drop on targets that don't have fearless or ATSKNF.
Use Drop Pods, terrain or a unit's own numbers to cut off any escape and slam home the Rhinos, you could make an infantry unit disappear because it had nowhere to go, even if they passed leadership you could sometimes make them escape behind the Rhino into charge range of the Thunderwolf Cavalry.

theocracity wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Ah, okay. Though I think if you manage to let something as wide and long as a Baneblade get completely surrounded, you were doing something very wrong.

If you do end up in that situation, though, you can always stage a heroic counter-charge to save the army's pride and joy.

It's very possible though, as the Hormagaunt example demonstrates (Shorter deployment, move 9, charge 2d6, pile in 6 then consolidate 6) shows. Add a Genestealer Cult Magus to the mix so that it can cast Mass Hypnosis, preventing the Baneblade from being able to Overwatch or even hit in melee. Slaaneshi Daemons also get Fiends, which prevent any attempt to withdraw whatsoever. Enjoy locking tanks with throwaway units a fraction of the cost.

And once again, the ability for the Baneblade to shoot after withdrawing is a special rule explicit to the Baneblade. If it were, say, a Land Raider, then that Land Raider would not even get the chance to shoot after withdrawal.

Meanwhile, Eldar and Tau go "we fly. What is this this 'chaff' you Monkeigh and Gue'la speak of? Your tanks belong in a zoo."

theocracity wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Ah, okay. Though I think if you manage to let something as wide and long as a Baneblade get completely surrounded, you were doing something very wrong.

If you do end up in that situation, though, you can always stage a heroic counter-charge to save the army's pride and joy.

Well it doesn't need to be completely surrounded. There just needs to be one model on each side of the tank. They also don't need to be from same unit...

Infantry stuck in the path of a tank during tank movement should cost a command point to move out of the way or die with maybe an armor save...

All games are an abstract representation of some scenario, real or imaginary. As such, the mechanics of the game are occasionally going to create odd interactions that aren't "realistic". We accept those interactions to be able to play a game within a reasonable time frame.

With the size of the armies used in an average 40K games, we need a fair bit of abstraction so a 1500pt game doesn't take all day. So, we will see some odd interactions crop up. So yes, a single Grot being able to make a Land Raider stop moving is "unrealistic", but I can live with it if in return vehicles have a level of durability appropriate to their cost, which seems to be the case with 8th.

If you want a realistic game, go play Advanced Squad Leader. It's got rules for every possible scenario. However, be aware it's got a set of rules the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica, and you'll spend a not-inconsiderable amount of time looking up things on graphs.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Spoiler:

theocracity wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Ah, okay. Though I think if you manage to let something as wide and long as a Baneblade get completely surrounded, you were doing something very wrong.

If you do end up in that situation, though, you can always stage a heroic counter-charge to save the army's pride and joy.

It's very possible though, as the Hormagaunt example demonstrates (Shorter deployment, move 9, charge 2d6, pile in 6 then consolidate 6) shows. Add a Genestealer Cult Magus to the mix so that it can cast Mass Hypnosis, preventing the Baneblade from being able to Overwatch or even hit in melee. Slaaneshi Daemons also get Fiends, which prevent any attempt to withdraw whatsoever. Enjoy locking tanks with throwaway units a fraction of the cost.

And once again, the ability for the Baneblade to shoot after withdrawing is a special rule explicit to the Baneblade. If it were, say, a Land Raider, then that Land Raider would not even get the chance to shoot after withdrawal.

Meanwhile, Eldar and Tau go "we fly. What is this this 'chaff' you Monkeigh and Gue'la speak of? Your tanks belong in a zoo."

Honestly? That all sounds fine to me. Tyranids getting to actually be an overwhelming horde sounds cool, as does the idea of heretic mutants or Slaaneshi demons being able to subvert even the Imperium's mighty weapons.

And, just as flavorfully, it can all be mitigated with a bit of vigilance on the Imperium's part - by making sure to keep a squad of conscripts guarding at least one of the Baneblade's flanks so it can't be surrounded without extra effort.

As for flying vehicles - I do think that the Fly keyword gives them a bit much of a pass on avoiding combat, but we'll see how that pans out. They tend to have less flexibility in terms of protecting their vehicles with chaff anyhow.

Honestly I think the army this impacts most would be my Orks - our vehicles are more reliant on getting into assault range in the first place.

I wish they would have fixed the system instead of having removed the system.

I now see Vehicles as being literally equal to a Lineman. Which is just wrong.

Edit - With the exception of Walkers. I think Walkers should have never been Vehicles.

 Talamare wrote:
I wish they would have fixed the system instead of having removed the system.

I now see Vehicles as being literally equal to a Lineman. Which is just wrong.

Edit - With the exception of Walkers. I think Walkers should have never been Vehicles.

Alternately, Riptides/Wraithlords/Dreadknights should have been vehicles.

ERJAK wrote:
In several hundred games of 40k played and several hundred more watched I have never, ever seen anyone bother to tank shock anything. Ever. And I've only seen 1 ramming. It just didn't happen and complaining about it is frankly ridiculous. Honestly the only embarrassing thing is just how desperate you are to get people to let you summon infinite daemons forever still.

Really? I spent most of 5th running my deffrollas into stuff over and over

Good god, you guys are so dramatic. What's the point of loitering around a forum making dozens of "muh immersions!" posts when you know it isn't going to change anything, and that you're either going to play 8th or you aren't? I mean criticism is one thing, but you couple of naysayers have already covered it quite a few posts ago.

Anywho, vehicles are either; a) an infantry delivery system, or b) a mobile weapons/support platform. In the former case, their job is done once they've dropped off their cargo and at that point you might as well just use them to soak up some overwatch; something which wasn't possible before. In the latter case, you now have to do something unthinkable: consider the positioning of your vehicles and keep them away from any type of garbage you don't want to get tangled up with! Why are you driving them through enemy infantry anyway?!

 Luciferian wrote:
Good god, you guys are so dramatic. What's the point of loitering around a forum making dozens of "muh immersions!" posts when you know it isn't going to change anything, and that you're either going to play 8th or you aren't? I mean criticism is one thing, but you couple of naysayers have already covered it quite a few posts ago.

Frankly agreed. All these sorts of threads sould really just be one thread titled "Stuff I don't like about 8th" instead of another thread clogging up the forum everytime a "new worst thing about 8th" is 'discovered'.

 Luciferian wrote:
Good god, you guys are so dramatic. What's the point of loitering around a forum making dozens of "muh immersions!" posts when you know it isn't going to change anything, and that you're either going to play 8th or you aren't? I mean criticism is one thing, but you couple of naysayers have already covered it quite a few posts ago.

Anywho, vehicles are either; a) an infantry delivery system, or b) a mobile weapons/support platform. In the former case, their job is done once they've dropped off their cargo and at that point you might as well just use them to soak up some overwatch; something which wasn't possible before. In the latter case, you now have to do something unthinkable: consider the positioning of your vehicles and keep them away from any type of garbage you don't want to get tangled up with! Why are you driving them through enemy infantry anyway?!

Or c) a linebreaker. You know, blitzkrieg and all that. Hard to do when your tank gets surrounded and neutralized by a bunch of grots.

And a is arguably not even that great in the first place, since destroyed transports now cause a Mortal Wound to 1 in every 6 passengers no matter what (models getting out of glanced vehicles are no longer a thing), you can't do move and disembark anymore, and transport prices were jacked up to the point you might as well buy more infantry in the first place.

Incidentally, trying to get a transport in range to unleash assault troops or as a linebreaker looks to be a surefire way to get surrounded, and for the game to turn into "bumpercar-hammer".

 amanita wrote:


Or c) a linebreaker. You know, blitzkrieg and all that. Hard to do when your tank gets surrounded and neutralized by a bunch of grots.

Sure but I fail to see how their functionality in that sense is anything but marginally affected. If you're charging your Rhinos into enemy lines, and you're smart about it, they should still be quite disruptive and break up the enemy to be cleaned up by your assault units. If you're not supporting that type of tactic with assault units anyway, then what's the complaint? Simply that enemy infantry doesn't have to move out of the way?